Panthers cut TE Kevin Brock...

[KillerKat]

I think the reason why we havent had a receiving threat TE since Walls is because we have a recieving threat in Smitty. Back when Beuerlein was QB, we had a star TE, a decent run game, and soild WRs. Now we have a star WR and RB, and decent TEs. So in Fox's eyes, there really isn't a need for a receiver threat/"star" TE. Just need ones that are solid in blocking that can make an occasional catch here and there.

[panthers55]

Yes, me countering your jealous rants about NFCSouth TEs with the fact they cost too much is a "red herring". The cost of TEs that you brought up obviously has nothing to do with this thread at all!

You said you want to get better, and claim these as examples. Maybe you should be clearer about what you want before you complain that talking about things you brought up are suddenly irrelevant. Their lack of value certainly seems relevant.

I have a hard time believing any of the three will be All-Pro worthy this year. If one does, then that player would have met expectations, not exceeded it. All three are too expensive. None would have the opportunity to meet expectations here.

So it's clear, I'm saying that none of these players are better TEs than our WRs are at their roles, or our RBs at theirs. No, there aren't enough balls to go around. As it is it'd be nice to have more to go around.

We got Davies for free. They got Brock for free. In a month you can get either for free. They can have the better end of the deal, I don't care. Neither player will be in the league in a month. Kevin Brock wasn't going to be good enough for your standards, so I don't see what difference it makes to you, anyway.

I think our TEs could've done better. Plenty of mental mistakes. I'm not excusing a thing, but it's easier to make that up than deal with difference of opinion rationally.

Now they are jealous rants. You are a great fiction writer, now lets try reality. I claimed everyone else in the division has gotten better. That most folks would say is a fact. I said we don't even try to get better and when we did pick someone three years in a row, we haven't developed them into anything even decent. I said we don't value the TE position as other than an extra lineman which is one reason our passing game gets shut down so easily. I don't think our 2 wide receivers make up for other teams who have good receivers and a TE as well. Last year teams like Dallas seem to have catches for their receivers like TO, Crayton and Williams while giving carries to their running backs- Barber, Jones and Choice and still have Witten get almost a 1000 yards. Our backs and WRs get so many yards because we have no one else to spread the wealth. It also makes us much easier to shut down as we have fewer options.

And comparing a WR or RB to a TE is an apple and orange discussion and another red herring. You don't have to have one or the other. Just look at far as Atlanta who has it all. What is so hard to understand? I am not saying we need to trade someone for an All-pro tight end. I said we need to upgrade. That can be either by picking new guys or developing what we have. You seem content with what we have. I want better. Frankly I believe the Rosario experiment has run its course. In the next year or so he will be gone and represent another in a long string of failed TEs in Carolina.

As for Brock lets see. He may be camp fodder or not. Seems to me that you have your mind made up that since he was undrafted he can't be good. I guess you would have said the same thing about Antonio Gates who went undrafted to San Diego. No one knew what he would do either.

We have a history of getting rid of young potential guys to keep veterans who never get any better. But maybe you are right, no need to keep guys like Brock. If we can't do a better job then we have with rosario, king or barnidge they would have been wasted here anyway. Better they go to someone who might know how to develop them.

And regarding the kids comment and wildly overblown, I bet you are the kid compared to me and the blowhard seems to be you.

[panthers55]

I think the reason why we havent had a receiving threat TE since Walls is because we have a recieving threat in Smitty. Back when Beuerlein was QB, we had a star TE, a decent run game, and soild WRs. Now we have a star WR and RB, and decent TEs. So in Fox's eyes, there really isn't a need for a receiver threat/"star" TE. Just need ones that are solid in blocking that can make an occasional catch here and there.

I think you are absolutely right. That only works until teams scheme to take out Smith and stack the box. If we had a legitimate TE it would make us that much harder to defend. It is hard for me to see Rosario or King as even decent. Neither of them were even in the top 25 of tight ends last year. King was 36 and Rosario 41. Even Michael Gaines (33) was higher than both of them. Where were the other supposedly over priced TEs in our division? All top 15-Gonzales (1), Shockey (11), Winslow (15)

[PantherPhann89]

We haven't used a TE effectively sing Wesley Walls. We use our TEs more like FBs and I hate it. I'd like to see our TE be more of a receiving threat. Yeah I know that we like to run the ball, but why can't we do both. Defenses don't have to plan to cover our TE because he's probably not going out for a pass. Our D have to plan to cover TEs everytime we play, especially in our own division. Man I'm not looking forward to playing Atl this year.

[magnus]

Let me start off with first of all, you don't make your opinion look superior by throwing out diminutive comments like in paragraph 3.

Not worried about making anything look 'superior', but thanks.

you think it is illogical to pursue improvement in other areas of the game?

No, I've never said that. Good work with the Ravens/Steelers analogies, those are actually good ones. The NFCSouth ones aren't. Heap and Miller are good TEs. Granted, Heap is always hurt anymore, but those are legitimate places to spend.

Then again, they're #1 picks, and we've had much greater needs pretty much every year. We could've gotten Olsen a few years ago - we got Beason. Beason means a lot more to us than any TE would or could right now - please deny that.

And it doesn't make you justified to try and trivialize the importance of the TE position just because Fox thinks it's a good idea to ignore it.

It's not unimportant. Never said that either. On this team, receiving is a secondary skill to blocking. Looked pretty good when we ran all over everyone.

It's also not the single most important thing. It doesn't become more important because you've had to wait a couple years for what you feel is a satisfactory TE.

[bleys]

Let me simplify this.. Magnus. You are putting all kind of words in peoples mouths. You are arguing points that were never made.

Go back, calmly, and read.. You are wayyy off base here.. lol

[magnus]

Now they are jealous rants.

It's kinda disingenious for you to say you wouldn't have given up at least as much as the other 3 teams in this division did for their TEs. And they wouldn't make us that much better.

I claimed everyone else in the division has gotten better. That most folks would say is a fact.

They did get better. I agreed before. I also said it was at far too high a price for what they got.

Our backs and WRs get so many yards because we have no one else to spread the wealth. It also makes us much easier to shut down as we have fewer options.

No they don't. Smith doesn't get a ton of receptions because we don't have a TE. That's absurd.

And comparing a WR or RB to a TE is an apple and orange discussion

you just used it above. Do the balls going to a TE look different or something? Do they give you an extra down for having a better TE?

I said we need to upgrade. That can be either by picking new guys or developing what we have. You seem content with what we have.

I'd like more talent. I just don't feel it's as important as, say, rebuilding an entire defense.

Frankly I believe the Rosario experiment has run its course.

yes!! This is fantastic. The way he's been fairly cheap and still productive for a 2nd TE makes him an ideal candidate to let go for absolutely no reason. "let's develop a TE. Let's also give him two years or he's done, he's just taking up space. They need to develop instantly!"

As for Brock lets see. He may be camp fodder or not. Seems to me that you have your mind made up that since he was undrafted he can't be good. I guess you would have said the same thing about Antonio Gates who went undrafted to San Diego. No one knew what he would do either.

Gates got an opportunity and did something with it.

I know you're not desperate enough to bring Gates into this though, right? I mean, you didn't say "Brock could be Gates", but because you obviously worded it so carefully and for that reason.

I have no problem with undrafted players. They have to prove something first. I also believe that football isn't a matter of measurables, and that watching a football player play is more important than a draft sheet. I don't care whether he ran faster than King. He's not on this team so I don't care about him. So, this is me saying that this team is more important to me than the tight end position or any obsessions with any position.

We have a history of getting rid of young potential guys to keep veterans who never get any better. But maybe you are right, no need to keep guys like Brock. If we can't do a better job then we have with rosario, king or barnidge they would have been wasted here anyway. Better they go to someone who might know how to develop them.

This is great - you'd really rather a player at a position you value go somewhere to get better. Screw this team, tight end development is where it's at, right? Screw this team. Screw it! The important thing is that Kevin Brock is comfortable.

As for the youth we're screwing for vets, we have a total of 5 years experience amongst 3 guys. We're trying to develop players, so I'm not sure you have a point there.

[magnus]

Let me simplify this.. Magnus. You are putting all kind of words in peoples mouths. You are arguing points that were never made.

Go back, calmly, and read.. You are wayyy off base here.. lol

yeah, the way I talked about Brock, Gonzalez, Winslow, and Shockey was way off base considering the other guy brought them up.

[bleys]

yeah, the way I talked about Brock, Gonzalez, Winslow, and Shockey was way off base considering the other guy brought them up.

lmfao... you totally ran with it.

I'm not going into some circular conversation as this always goes.

It's very simple though. Dude pointed out that Brock had some potential and would rather see him get a shot. That was it. You started talking about everything under the sun like it was relevant.. lol

Now at this point, you can say "well they are pointing this or that out" but thats after the fact you have ran with the convo.

The original point was simple, "would have liked to see Brock at least get a look in TC before he was cut"...

That was it... no ands, ifs, or buts.... Not about needing a pro bowl TE.. You brought that up. Not about Brock even making the team, you made it out like they said he was the next Gonzo.. Not about anything other than.. "would have liked to see him get a look in TC"...

Re-read.. it's there for all to see...

[magnus]

It's very simple though. Dude pointed out that Brock had some potential and would rather see him get a shot. That was it. You started talking about everything under the sun like it was relevant.. lol

Now at this point, you can say "well they are pointing this or that out" but thats after the fact you have ran with the convo.

The original point was simple, "would have liked to see Brock at least get a look in TC before he was cut"...

That was it... no ands, ifs, or buts.... Not about needing a pro bowl TE.. You brought that up. Not about Brock even making the team, you made it out like they said he was the next Gonzo.. Not about anything other than.. "would have liked to see him get a look in TC"...

Re-read.. it's there for all to see...

oh - so I was the one who brought up how our team doesn't value the TE position and all that, right?

Exactly, except for not really.

I'm perfectly fine with what I said. I feel pretty solid that the team shares that feeling. I'm absolutely OK with us cutting our 5th string TE.

But awesome work with the "oh wow, you really responded" take.

[bleys]

oh - so I was the one who brought up how our team doesn't value the TE position and all that, right?

Exactly, except for not really.

I'm perfectly fine with what I said. I feel pretty solid that the team shares that feeling. I'm absolutely OK with us cutting our 5th string TE.

But awesome work with the "oh wow, you really responded" take.

didn't follow your last sentence.. but I imagine you hear that a lot...

The team clearly doesn't bring in TE talent like other teams.. that's a pretty solid statement. So what's your point? I didn't say you did bring that up. Obviously that is too reasonable of a statement for that to be the case..

none of that is the issue.. You took "I would have liked to see Brock get a look in TC" to mean "I can't believe they let a guy go that was going to be our next pro bowler"...

But carry on, apparently this is all making sense in your world. After all, you feel pretty strong about all you've said. lol

[panthers55]

You know I still can't figure how this discussion went from wondering out loud that Brock should have been given a longer look especially over Davies and suggesting that we really need to develop a TE since we haven't had one a good one in years, to a multi-page pissing match.

Feel free to keep at it. Obviously your ego is more tied up in winning than is mine. I have other things to do that keep this up for another 5 pages.

Good luck impressing all the kids with your convoluted logic.

[bleys]

You know I still can't figure how this discussion went from wondering out loud that Brock should have been given a longer look especially over Davies and suggesting that we really need to develop a TE since we haven't had one a good one in years, to a multi-page pissing match.

Feel free to keep at it. Obviously your ego is more tied up in winning than is mine. I have other things to do that keep this up for another 5 pages.

Good luck impressing all the kids with your convoluted logic.

reading comprehension is a bitch...

[magnus]

I'm just stating my opinion. Thought I had that right, but hey, maybe some things are above question, or maybe you brought a knife to a gunfight. Sorry that means you'd rather complain than anything else. At least you admit you brought those things up, 'bleys' seems to pretend that's my issue.