Panthers cut TE Kevin Brock...

[panthers55]

It doesn't make it "better". It means expecting Rosario's SD game every game is about as unrealistic as believing Brock was better than what we have.

They still don't have the offensive talent we have. Even still, Gonzalez probably doesn't get the 90 catch, 10 TD year he's had.

I'm not excusing them. If you want to throw to a TE instead of letting our real talent make plays, with visions of 1999 Wesley Walls stuck in your head, that's your business. And yes, taking it this far is crying about Kevin Brock. He's a scrub. I'll take a young third round pick at a need position over a quicky aging former star or a pair of basket case Miami kids with injury problems.

No one is expecting Rosario to have a great game every week. Read what I said. I would be happy with a 4 catch a game guy with a TD every few games. Last guy who did that was Wesley.

Wanna bet whether Gonzales gets 4 catches a game and a TD every few games. Wanna bet whether Winslow and Shockey do as well? Wanna bet anyone on our team does? If it is, it would be Barnidge not Rosario or King. Atlanta will throw and run as much as we will and still get Gonzo in the game each week.

I also said that I don't know what Brock would or could do but I have little confidence that we know how to pick a decent TE or develop them. What I said was I thought he would get a longer look and that based on the numbers he should have lasted longer than Davie. You are the one talking all-pro or how good our guys are or that we shouldn't expect a goood TE because Smith and Williams gets the rock all the time. I pointed out that we are the only team in our division without an pro-bowl tight end on their team and I think that is a mistake.

Then you again add a red herring on the third rounder comment. What was that about? I never said Brock was great, would make the roster or is even better than anyone. I pointed out facts. He had better combine numbers than Rosario and King and was as fast as Barnidge. He was a good blocker, decent receiver, and is the strongest TE on the team. I wanted to see him get a chance to show what he can do. You are the one blowing this up, keeping the thread going and making excuses for poor TE play.

[Sloth]

It doesn't make it "better". It means expecting Rosario's SD game every game is about as unrealistic as believing Brock was better than what we have.

What game? He had an amazing catch in SD, not an amazing game. He had a crappy year.

They still don't have the offensive talent we have. Even still, Gonzalez probably doesn't get the 90 catch, 10 TD year he's had.

ATL is barely behind us in offensive talent. Our line is better for running, they don't have a 1B option at RB, but Turner put up just as impressive a season as Williams, without the benefit of being spelled as often. White isn't as good as Smith, but he's very good. Their rookie QB was just as good as ours and has plenty of room to grow. And hey, since TE was a weakness, they went ahead and addressed it. What scrubs.

I'm not excusing them. If you want to throw to a TE instead of letting our real talent make plays, with visions of 1999 Wesley Walls stuck in your head, that's your business. And yes, taking it this far is crying about Kevin Brock. He's a scrub. I'll take a young third round pick at a need position over a quicky aging former star or a pair of basket case Miami kids with injury problems.

Yeah, it IS stupid to get excited about a TE with the overload of talent and potential we're sitting on. One day, just like in Forrest Gump, King's leg braces will fall off and he'll be streaking down the field. Rosario will recover from the stroke or whatever he had that prevented his hands from closing and be able to catch footballs and tie his shoes again. Barnidge caught Gatorade cups on the bench last year, which is understandable with the logjam of talent ahead of him.

No one gives a crap about Brock, they'd just like to see a little talent at TE at some point.

[magnus]

What game? He had an amazing catch in SD, not an amazing game. He had a crappy year.

7 catches, 96 yards. Not one catch, plenty of catches. And when we needed it most - no Smith that game. When DJ Hackett and Dwayne Jarrett are your compliments to Moose, no wonder Rosario got catches.

Yeah, it IS stupid to get excited about a TE with the overload of talent and potential we're sitting on.

one that you've never seen play, sure. One that wasn't good enough to come to camp, sure.

[Kurb]

Who are we talking about again ?

[magnus]

No one is expecting Rosario to have a great game every week. Read what I said. I would be happy with a 4 catch a game guy with a TD every few games. Last guy who did that was Wesley.

I'd be happy with that too. It'd take one guy who's that good, but I'll take two guys who block well. We have that.

Wanna bet whether Gonzales gets 4 catches a game and a TD every few games.

No. Not concerned about that, just like you weren't concerned with whether Gonzalez' one or two year production will plummet. or whether Winslow or Shockey are good for our locker room (they aren't), or whether investing in TEs who are bad in the locker room and get hurt are good investments (they aren't).

I also said that I don't know what Brock would or could do but I have little confidence that we know how to pick a decent TE or develop them.

We "picked" Brock at one point, so maybe at least we can stop worrying about the great loss in that situation. If it's a matter of fantastic talent there? Sure, i'd love that. I'd love our defense to be good first, so I'm fine with us being cheap at TE while we're working on an entire side of the ball. So we'll have to disagree on how big a priority we have at TE while we have more skill at RB, FB, WR than we've ever had. I don't think it's smart to spend a 3rd round pick on an already-aged former Pro Bowler who won't get the ball more than the TEs we already have, because yes, it's relevant that Smith, Muhammad, Stewart, and Williams will get the vast majority of the touches. As it should be.

Then you again add a red herring on the third rounder comment. What was that about?

Gonzalez was a trade for a 3rd. I could've said a 2nd - Winslow went for a 2 and a 2010 5. Shockey went for a 2 and 5 in 2009. Now you can talk about how fantastic they're going to be and look longingly thinking how great it'd be to have them, and I guess that's fair. Will any of those players be better over the next four years than Everette Brown? Do you think Shockey was worth a 2 and 5 to catch 50 balls, 0 TD, and have a gamebreaking 9 yards per catch in the #1 offense in the league last year? Nine freaking yards a catch, on the most wide open team in the league. Along with injury history and

So, do you think it's possible that three years from now, as a 3rd round pick would be hitting stride as a starter, and Gonzalez is 36 years old, that's not the greatest investment? Shockey may not make it to 2010 as a Saint. Winslow for a 2nd rounder, a 5th, and paying him the back end of a 6 year, $40 million contract? For the Soldier? You couldn't get me to pay him that without the trade. He didn't even score a TD until his third season. Winslow's 43 catch, 3 TD performance was barely what King and Rosario combined for.

So, sure. We can do better. I'm glad we're not stupid enough to give away high draft picks on the guys we'll be facing.

and making excuses for poor TE play.

I'm not making excuses for anything. And no, Brock's combine numbers don't mean a thing. They didn't get him drafted and they probably won't get him a roster spot.

[panthers55]

I'd be happy with that too. It'd take one guy who's that good, but I'll take two guys who block well. We have that.

............

So, sure. We can do better.

I'm not making excuses for anything. And no, Brock's combine numbers don't mean a thing. They didn't get him drafted and they probably won't get him a roster spot.

You are great at red herring arguments and irrelevant comments that argue points that no one is debating or part of our ongoing discussion.

You want two blockers, I want at least one blocker who can catch the ball as well. I don't think you have to settle for one or the other. Maybe that is why teams shut us down by loading the box and doubling Smitty and singling Moose. We got nothing else and we seem to be the only team that discounts the TE year after year.

THen you go on and on about what is wrong with Shockey, Winslow or Gonzales and what they cost as free agents, when I never said we should trade for them or pick them up. I said all the teams in the division value the Te position more than we do and have all pro tight ends and we have crap. You think that any of our tight ends will be better than the worst of these 3? You think that just because they might not be a fit for us that we are better keeping the same guys instead of trying to upgrade through the draft or doing a better job of picking better talent or developing what we have? as for Brock sure we picked him up and dumped him before we tried to do anything with him. That is part of the point. We have failed to develop a TE in our franchise history.

I said I would be glad with a good tight end who caught 4 balls a game and a TD every few games. I didn't say we should trade for them or even need an all-pro, I said that we need more than we have and frankly we should have either drafted better or developed who we have picked. This isn't a one year problem but one going on a decade with nothing to show for it.

And the best defense to your brock comments is to see how long it took for another team to pick him up. One day! By the team that dumped Davies. Sorry if I believe the Jets got the best end of that deal.

You are obviously happy with mediocrity and poor performance from the TEs and make all kinds of excuses to justify it. I think we should do better and should have at least developed one guy in the last decade who turned out to be a good player. I think the the TE should be a vital part of the passing game as well as the running game and pointed out that we are the only team in the division that doesn't agree with that.

So what new red herring arguments do you want to create now??

[Skew]

Can;t imagine how much it would suck to turn in your playbook before the first practice.

Fair thee well Kevin, we hardly knew ye.

OMG!!!

We will never make the Superbowl now!!!!

(thought I'd just save us a thread)

[panthers55]

OMG!!!

We will never make the Superbowl now!!!!

(thought I'd just save us a thread)

If we don't make the Superbowl, the lack of a legitimate TE will only be one of several problems with the majority of them on defense not offense. No one said Brock is the answer but I don't see Rosario, Davies or King as the answer either. I still hold out some slim hope for Barnidge who as least can catch the ball and run with it.

Problem with that though is that we haven't shown any ability to develop A TE in our franchise history let alone under Fox. Brock got picked up by the Jets in one day. Lets see who jumps on Davies when he gets cut down the road. I bet no one. Somehow this thread has gotten way out of control with guys who have to justify and defend our sometimes poor decisions and issues. I just think that Brock might be worth giving a look. Obviously the Jets agree with me.

[magnus]

You are great at red herring arguments and irrelevant comments that argue points that no one is debating or part of our ongoing discussion.

Yes, me countering your jealous rants about NFCSouth TEs with the fact they cost too much is a "red herring". The cost of TEs that you brought up obviously has nothing to do with this thread at all!

THen you go on and on about what is wrong with Shockey, Winslow or Gonzales and what they cost as free agents, when I never said we should trade for them or pick them up.

You said you want to get better, and claim these as examples. Maybe you should be clearer about what you want before you complain that talking about things you brought up are suddenly irrelevant. Their lack of value certainly seems relevant.

said all the teams in the division value the Te position more than we do and have all pro tight ends and we have crap. You think that any of our tight ends will be better than the worst of these 3?

I have a hard time believing any of the three will be All-Pro worthy this year. If one does, then that player would have met expectations, not exceeded it. All three are too expensive. None would have the opportunity to meet expectations here.

So it's clear, I'm saying that none of these players are better TEs than our WRs are at their roles, or our RBs at theirs. No, there aren't enough balls to go around. As it is it'd be nice to have more to go around.

And the best defense to your brock comments is to see how long it took for another team to pick him up. One day! By the team that dumped Davies. Sorry if I believe the Jets got the best end of that deal.

We got Davies for free. They got Brock for free. In a month you can get either for free. They can have the better end of the deal, I don't care. Neither player will be in the league in a month. Kevin Brock wasn't going to be good enough for your standards, so I don't see what difference it makes to you, anyway.

You are obviously happy with mediocrity and poor performance from the TEs and make all kinds of excuses to justify it.

I think our TEs could've done better. Plenty of mental mistakes. I'm not excusing a thing, but it's easier to make that up than deal with difference of opinion rationally.

[frash.exe]

A lot of people have picked up the tendencies of Fox and Hurney in player development, and it seems to me, if it isn't a half back, defensive end, offensive tackle or center, cornerback, linebacker, or wide receiver, they don't care much at all about it. Either that or they don't have the confidence to develop one, and if that is the case, that's a huge red flag on coaching.

Our sole day one TE in the Fox/Hurney era is Mike Seidman. And it seemed every time he went out on the field he got hurt.

A lot of people here don't understand the benefit of a bona fide TE, and I bet you, if we put our minds to it, we could've had a damn good one by now. He is a big target, a safety valve, and would definitely give us a better shot at converting those third downs, and get open in the red zone. If we had one that could get open, that had route running skills and speed, Jake would see him open, and that would give us yet another weapon to help us move the chains on offense. It would help draw pressure off of the WRs.

We just don't have a guy, and we just don't have the commitment, which frustrates some people (like me and P55). How could it hurt us if we did? Someone tell me what do we lose by paying more attention? What, a shot at another running back who has got a 50/50 chance of busting like all the runningbacks we have drafted? King is at best just a good blocker, Rosario is wildly inconsistent and a non-factor most weeks, and Barnidge, we haven't seen anything from him yet.

[weyco2000]

I agree with you Panthers55 our TE combined for 39 catches (7 in one game by Rosario) and a grand total of 2 TD's. Ouch!! Whats amazing is that we spend a fifth rounder on a TE every year or so it seems. Asking for 50 catches and 5 TD's a year is probably impossible for our group of TE's but it shouldn't be. Sure we need a blocking type but we also need a playmaker.

[Skew]

If we don't make the Superbowl, the lack of a legitimate TE will only be one of several problems with the majority of them on defense not offense. No one said Brock is the answer but I don't see Rosario, Davies or King as the answer either. I still hold out some slim hope for Barnidge who as least can catch the ball and run with it.

Problem with that though is that we haven't shown any ability to develop A TE in our franchise history let alone under Fox. Brock got picked up by the Jets in one day. Lets see who jumps on Davies when he gets cut down the road. I bet no one. Somehow this thread has gotten way out of control with guys who have to justify and defend our sometimes poor decisions and issues. I just think that Brock might be worth giving a look. Obviously the Jets agree with me.

I know, I know.

But if I didn't say it, you know there will be 5 threads about it tomorrow.

Just trying to save us all some time.

[magnus]

Most TEs aren't playmakers. We have our playmakers elsewhere. I think I've shown that those playmakers are pretty expensive for what you get.

Would I like a complete player at TE? Of course. Can our guys get better? Sure. It'd have been fantastic to have made a lot of moves this year. It'd be great to have a better player at almost every position. Is it logical? No.

Should we have done better than Mangum since 2003? Yeah.

Have people romanticized the idea of a TE since Wesley Walls left, blowing it wildly out of proportion? In my mind, yeah. Sorry I disagree with you, kids. I'd love to get better but there are much bigger needs. This isn't a flaw of the front office, it's just a part of the team we have.

[frash.exe]

Most TEs aren't playmakers. We have our playmakers elsewhere. I think I've shown that those playmakers are pretty expensive for what you get.

Would I like a complete player at TE? Of course. Can our guys get better? Sure. It'd have been fantastic to have made a lot of moves this year. It'd be great to have a better player at almost every position. Is it logical? No.

Should we have done better than Mangum since 2003? Yeah.

Have people romanticized the idea of a TE since Wesley Walls left, blowing it wildly out of proportion? In my mind, yeah. Sorry I disagree with you, kids. I'd love to get better but there are much bigger needs. This isn't a flaw of the front office, it's just a part of the team we have.

Let me start off with first of all, you don't make your opinion look superior by throwing out diminutive comments like in paragraph 3.

you think it is illogical to pursue improvement in other areas of the game? Ask Pittsburgh. Yea, the Steelers, the franchise we emulate so goddamn much, who've spent first round picks on TEs and Safeties, two players who have made a great return on investment in two positions we like to be so stingy on. Or the Ravens, the Steelers Lite of the NFL. Ed Reed and Todd Heap have been two amazing players.

Yea, both teams have a different base defense than we do, but the philosophy is the same: run the ball, and stop the run. But does that require them to spend countless picks on the same damn positions? No it doesn't. Does it require them to spend copious amounts of money in free agency at people who play the same positions? No.

And it doesn't make you justified to try and trivialize the importance of the TE position just because Fox thinks it's a good idea to ignore it.