Panthers GM Marty Herniay discusses drafting Newton & Jordan Gross

[rayzor]

[cbully]

No WRs or DTs but gamble was a good pick

dat sig

[PantherWake]

 

Damn shes hot. She looks like my huge crush in highschool *sigh*

[jarhead]

I guess he is going to talk about them versus Edwards and Everette Brown and Clausen. Cant say that I blame him

[TN05]

Safe picks--unless you consider Jonathan Stewart, Jeff Otah, Everette Brown (traded a first rounder for him).

 

Where are the WRs he drafted?

Where are the defensive tackles?

How many elite CBs did he draft?

 

How do you think he did negotiating contracts?

How well did he do in free agency?

 

He gave away the 33rd pick in the draft for Armanti Edwards, a small school QB with NO WR EXPERIENCE (which is still the case).

He tried to ttrade up with the Rams to draft Jimmy Clausen--they did not accept his offer.

He drafted players with injury histories that shortenened or adversly impacted their careers. 

 

Stewart isn't a bust, Jeff Otah wasn't a bad player at all (he just had major injury problems), and Everette Brown was a second-round pick. Marty Hurney had a very impressive streak of drafting good players in the first round - including Julius Peppers, Jordan Gross, Chris Gamble, DeAngelo Williams, Cam Newton and Luke Kuechly -  and Otah's the only guy that broke that. Regardless of what you think about him elsewhere, his consistency in that regard is incredible.

He drafted ten receivers. Considering we were a run-first team and had an elite receiver in Steve Smith his entire tenure as well as Mushin Muhammad as No. 2 from 2002-04 and 08-09, or roughly half of his tenure here, receiver wasn't a major need.

 

He drafted five defensive tackles. We did have an elite tackle in Kris Jenkins for quite a bit, but this was undoubtably a fault in his resume.

He drafted at least one elite cornerback, Chris Gamble, who at his peak was one of the best man corners in the league. He also drafted several corners who were at least decent starters, including Ricky Manning, Richard Marshall, and Captain Munnerlynn. Don't forget Charles Godfrey was a corner when we drafted him.

 

He did a good job in some aspects, a bad job in others. He was loyal to a fault, which made players want to stay and be drafted here, but he held on to many players for too long.

 

In free agency, he has pretty mediocre. We built mostly through the draft, but didn't really go for many blockbuster type deals. When we did try to do something (like signing Keyshawn Johnson), it didn't usually work out. At the same time, he was very good at finding diamonds in the rough like Jake Delhomme, Stephen Davis, Ricky Proehl, Brentson Buckner, and Moose in 2008. These are the same time of moves Gettleman has been making.

 

Bad move on his part there.

Considering we needed a quarterback, not a terrible idea. Hindsight is 50/50.

Name a few major players he drafted like that.

 

I'm not saying Hurney was perfect. but his tenure was far from a train wreck. His last few years here were not great, but its not like we were the Lions or anything, and if it weren't for him I don't think we would have made it back to the playoffs so quickly after 1-15. Heck, if it weren't for him I don't think we would have drafted Cam and Luke, or that we'd be back in the playoffs last year.

[MHS831]

Stewart isn't a bust, Jeff Otah wasn't a bad player at all (he just had major injury problems), and Everette Brown was a second-round pick. Marty Hurney had a very impressive streak of drafting good players in the first round - including Julius Peppers, Jordan Gross, Chris Gamble, DeAngelo Williams, Cam Newton and Luke Kuechly -  and Otah's the only guy that broke that. Regardless of what you think about him elsewhere, his consistency in that regard is incredible.

He drafted ten receivers. Considering we were a run-first team and had an elite receiver in Steve Smith his entire tenure as well as Mushin Muhammad as No. 2 from 2002-04 and 08-09, or roughly half of his tenure here, receiver wasn't a major need.

 

He drafted five defensive tackles. We did have an elite tackle in Kris Jenkins for quite a bit, but this was undoubtably a fault in his resume.

He drafted at least one elite cornerback, Chris Gamble, who at his peak was one of the best man corners in the league. He also drafted several corners who were at least decent starters, including Ricky Manning, Richard Marshall, and Captain Munnerlynn. Don't forget Charles Godfrey was a corner when we drafted him.

 

He did a good job in some aspects, a bad job in others. He was loyal to a fault, which made players want to stay and be drafted here, but he held on to many players for too long.

 

In free agency, he has pretty mediocre. We built mostly through the draft, but didn't really go for many blockbuster type deals. When we did try to do something (like signing Keyshawn Johnson), it didn't usually work out. At the same time, he was very good at finding diamonds in the rough like Jake Delhomme, Stephen Davis, Ricky Proehl, Brentson Buckner, and Moose in 2008. These are the same time of moves Gettleman has been making.

 

Bad move on his part there.

Considering we needed a quarterback, not a terrible idea. Hindsight is 50/50.

Name a few major players he drafted like that.

 

I'm not saying Hurney was perfect. but his tenure was far from a train wreck. His last few years here were not great, but its not like we were the Lions or anything, and if it weren't for him I don't think we would have made it back to the playoffs so quickly after 1-15. Heck, if it weren't for him I don't think we would have drafted Cam and Luke, or that we'd be back in the playoffs last year.

 

This is a well thought-out response to my post--I wish there was more of this on this board. You make some very solid points.  Let me explain a couple of my points that you mention:

 

Stewart was on the operating table when we picked him (somewhere around 13th overall) and he has really never fully recovered.  If you go back and calculate it (I read this somewhere a year ago), he has earned about $20k for every yard gained in his career. His average season is 669 yards rushing.   That is not the production of a mid-first rounder who makes about $6 million per season and was given $22+ million guaranteed. Otah had a history of knee issues at Pitt when we drafted him.  While I agree that Stewart is not what some would call a bust, he has yet to consistently play to his draft position and his pay level. I think it is safe to call Otah a bust because the knee issues were there. He was also criticized for his lack of work ethic, primarily (I assume) in rehab. 

 

If I were a GM, I would probably not have a RB on my team who is not on his first contract unless he had "Peterson" on the back of his jersey.

 

You make some very good points--One I find interesting is Hurney's loyalty to players. That is no small thing for a GM.  It suggests bias and emotion are involved in the exchange of money for services.  It proved to be his downfall, in my opinion.

 

I am hard on Marty Hurney.  It started with his draft day decisions (Stewart when we already had DWill, Otah for a future first and a second rounder) then there was the Everette Brown trade up (I wanted to kill my TV that day), and who could forget when he traded away a future second rounder for Armanti Edwards.  During this time, he was overpaying our core.  John Fox was so pissed during that draft because Hurney went rogue, not including him (Lame duck) in the process.  Hurney did so well. on his own. 

 

Marty had no eye for talent.  He relied on coaches and scouts.  While you can get by drafting that way, you better know what you have at the negotiating table.

 

Give me Gettlemen over Hurney any day.  I do not care if he pisses off a 35-year old WR or plays hardball with free agents.  Good.  We need less emotion in the front office and more frugality.  Let the coaches and the owner coddle the players, but the GM has to be the bottom line hard ass.  Just my opinion. 

 

 

[TN05]

This is a well thought-out response to my post--I wish there was more of this on this board. You make some very solid points.  Let me explain a couple of my points that you mention:

 

Stewart was on the operating table when we picked him (somewhere around 13th overall) and he has really never fully recovered.  If you go back and calculate it (I read this somewhere a year ago), he has earned about $20k for every yard gained in his career. His average season is 669 yards rushing.   That is not the production of a mid-first rounder who makes about $6 million per season and was given $22+ million guaranteed. Otah had a history of knee issues at Pitt when we drafted him.  While I agree that Stewart is not what some would call a bust, he has yet to consistently play to his draft position and his pay level. I think it is safe to call Otah a bust because the knee issues were there. He was also criticized for his lack of work ethic, primarily (I assume) in rehab. 

 

If I were a GM, I would probably not have a RB on my team who is not on his first contract unless he had "Peterson" on the back of his jersey.

 

You make some very good points--One I find interesting is Hurney's loyalty to players. That is no small thing for a GM.  It suggests bias and emotion are involved in the exchange of money for services.  It proved to be his downfall, in my opinion.

 

I am hard on Marty Hurney.  It started with his draft day decisions (Stewart when we already had DWill, Otah for a future first and a second rounder) then there was the Everette Brown trade up (I wanted to kill my TV that day), and who could forget when he traded away a future second rounder for Armanti Edwards.  During this time, he was overpaying our core.  John Fox was so pissed during that draft because Hurney went rogue, not including him (Lame duck) in the process.  Hurney did so well. on his own. 

 

Marty had no eye for talent.  He relied on coaches and scouts.  While you can get by drafting that way, you better know what you have at the negotiating table.

 

Give me Gettlemen over Hurney any day.  I do not care if he pisses off a 35-year old WR or plays hardball with free agents.  Good.  We need less emotion in the front office and more frugality.  Let the coaches and the owner coddle the players, but the GM has to be the bottom line hard ass.  Just my opinion. 

 

Thanks, I prefer to have this kind of conversation. :)

 

I completely understand the Stewart point - he's been injured a lot over his career. At the same time, we had cut DeShaun Foster and we weren't sure if DeAngelo could be a #1 back. I think the move really panned out the first two years, right before we fell off the deep end in 2010, and if you look at his first four years, he was a very solid #2.  Right before he hit the injury bug in 2012, he had had a very good 2011 season - he averaged 5.4 YPC, got 761 rushing yards splitting time with DeAngelo and Cam, and also added 413 receiving yards. That's nearly 1,200 total yards on the season. Hurney's biggest fault here was giving him a massive contract instead of letting him walk - I think we were scared he'd be a Matt Forte-type player and go to a rival, but it just wasn't worth it to pay our #2 back that much money when we got Tolbert, who can basically do everything he does. As for Otah, we can agree it didn't pan out but I do think he looked very solid in 2008 though.

Hurney shouldn't have invested so much in the backfield, I agree. I think we could have gone with a D-Lo/Tolbert combo in 2012, which would have saved room to fix actual problems. This is where the loyalty he had backfired severely. For however many guys we managed to keep or bring in that way, when the players he liked started to decline (looking at Jake, mostly), he didn't know what to do and wasn't prepared. It's OK to like a player, but there's no reason we shouldn't have been looking at a new quarterback before Jake simply couldn't play anymore. There just needs to be a balance, and Hurney - like Fox - couldn't adjust to the times near the end.

 

I think we can all agree towards the end Hurney wasn't very good - this goes back to the loyalty point. He had so much faith in his players that when they started to fail him, he couldn't adjust. I was hopeful he was learning near the end when he drafted Luke (presumably as insurance for Beason and TD), but it didn't seem to work out that way.

 

I do agree Hurney was lacking in the draft. I think he was phenomenal as a first-round drafter, but he really didn't find that many late-round guys that panned out. It's a shame we never really got anyone worth a crap in the later rounds. At the same time we did make up for it by bringing in veteran guys who would contribute, like Gettleman has been doing. If Gettleman can somehow mix late-round successes with his free agent success, we could be very good for a long time.

At this point I agree, I'd take Gettleman. But I don't think we can discount the Hurney era entirely.

[MaineManPanther]

This is a well thought-out response to my post--I wish there was more of this on this board. You make some very solid points. Let me explain a couple of my points that you mention:

Stewart was on the operating table when we picked him (somewhere around 13th overall) and he has really never fully recovered. If you go back and calculate it (I read this somewhere a year ago), he has earned about $20k for every yard gained in his career. His average season is 669 yards rushing. That is not the production of a mid-first rounder who makes about $6 million per season and was given $22+ million guaranteed. Otah had a history of knee issues at Pitt when we drafted him. While I agree that Stewart is not what some would call a bust, he has yet to consistently play to his draft position and his pay level. I think it is safe to call Otah a bust because the knee issues were there. He was also criticized for his lack of work ethic, primarily (I assume) in rehab.

If I were a GM, I would probably not have a RB on my team who is not on his first contract unless he had "Peterson" on the back of his jersey.

You make some very good points--One I find interesting is Hurney's loyalty to players. That is no small thing for a GM. It suggests bias and emotion are involved in the exchange of money for services. It proved to be his downfall, in my opinion.

I am hard on Marty Hurney. It started with his draft day decisions (Stewart when we already had DWill, Otah for a future first and a second rounder) then there was the Everette Brown trade up (I wanted to kill my TV that day), and who could forget when he traded away a future second rounder for Armanti Edwards. During this time, he was overpaying our core. John Fox was so pissed during that draft because Hurney went rogue, not including him (Lame duck) in the process. Hurney did so well. on his own.

Marty had no eye for talent. He relied on coaches and scouts. While you can get by drafting that way, you better know what you have at the negotiating table.

Give me Gettlemen over Hurney any day. I do not care if he pisses off a 35-year old WR or plays hardball with free agents. Good. We need less emotion in the front office and more frugality. Let the coaches and the owner coddle the players, but the GM has to be the bottom line hard ass. Just my opinion.

Looking at his college histroy it looks like Otah started every game in his college career. Looking at his scouting reports I've found no mention of knee injury concerns. Picks like Otah shouldn't be blamed on the GM, you shouldn't be blamed for injuries that did not occur in the players past. Otah, when he played, was a high caliber RT. Also, we simply swapped first rounders (ours next year for Phillys that year).

[MHS831]

Looking at his college histroy it looks like Otah started every game in his college career. Looking at his scouting reports I've found no mention of knee injury concerns. Picks like Otah shouldn't be blamed on the GM, you shouldn't be blamed for injuries that did not occur in the players past. Otah, when he played, was a high caliber RT. Also, we simply swapped first rounders (ours next year for Phillys that year).

 

I read an article back then that said he played through chronic knee problems at Pittsburgh, believed to be a deteriorating condition. But since I cannot find anything on it, I have to think that it was my mistake.  

 

Here is a point-- I wanted Chris Williams, so either way, we would have lost (I think he went one pick before us in the draft)

 

Here is a passage of something I could find about his work ethic-

"Needs to be monitored in the training room because of poor work habits and lacks the maturity needed to handle the mental aspect of playing on an island at left tackle. He might be a better fit on the right side … Has questionable toughness and plays with inconsistent aggression.."

 

The thing I did not like about the Otah deal was trading away first rounders

 

About Stewart:  Good point, but we had other more pressing needs. DT, OT, I think at that time.  To add another RB caught a lot of people by surprise.  I understand a third or fourth rounder if you had concerns about DW, but a top 15 pick was overkill, IMO.

[caatfan]

This belongs in a section labeled 'Let's talk about the bad old days'.

[MHS831]

Looking at his college histroy it looks like Otah started every game in his college career. Looking at his scouting reports I've found no mention of knee injury concerns. Picks like Otah shouldn't be blamed on the GM, you shouldn't be blamed for injuries that did not occur in the players past. Otah, when he played, was a high caliber RT. Also, we simply swapped first rounders (ours next year for Phillys that year).

http://www.sportsmedia101.com/carolinapanthers/2012/08/08/jeff-otah-highlights-sad-reality-of-nfl-injuries/

 

This is what I am referring to:

"Coming out of college, Otah was one of the top lineman prospects in his class, only held back by a knee injury that was widely considered to be minor. In fact, the Panthers were so unconcerned about his shaky knees that they traded up to select Otah with the 19th overall pick. The team saw a top level talent who filled a pressing need and decided to gamble on health. The gamble did not pay off."

 

(This article references the knee but is not the article I read in 2008 or so)

 

This does not disprove your point--it was thought to be minor. Maybe they discovered the chronic issue later.  However, we have a pretty good knee man in Charlotte who could have checked him out.  Since he was projected later in the first round, I am not sure that we ever looked into him with a lot of depth.

[MaineManPanther]

I read an article back then that said he played through chronic knee problems at Pittsburgh, believed to be a deteriorating condition. But since I cannot find anything on it, I have to think that it was my mistake.

Here is a point-- I wanted Chris Williams, so either way, we would have lost (I think he went one pick before us in the draft)

Here is a passage of something I could find about his work ethic-

"Needs to be monitored in the training room because of poor work habits and lacks the maturity needed to handle the mental aspect of playing on an island at left tackle. He might be a better fit on the right side … Has questionable toughness and plays with inconsistent aggression.."

The thing I did not like about the Otah deal was trading away first rounders

About Stewart: Good point, but we had other more pressing needs. DT, OT, I think at that time. To add another RB caught a lot of people by surprise. I understand a third or fourth rounder if you had concerns about DW, but a top 15 pick was overkill, IMO.

We traded away to be able to have two 1st in the same year. The point being that in a two year span we would have the same amount of 1st rounders (2) wether we traded or not. The only thing we really lost was a second and fourth rounder. And for a elite tackle Id say its worth it.

[MaineManPanther]

http://www.sportsmedia101.com/carolinapanthers/2012/08/08/jeff-otah-highlights-sad-reality-of-nfl-injuries/

This is what I am referring to:

"Coming out of college, Otah was one of the top lineman prospects in his class, only held back by a knee injury that was widely considered to be minor. In fact, the Panthers were so unconcerned about his shaky knees that they traded up to select Otah with the 19th overall pick. The team saw a top level talent who filled a pressing need and decided to gamble on health. The gamble did not pay off."

(This article references the knee but is not the article I read in 2008 or so)

This does not disprove your point--it was thought to be minor. Maybe they discovered the chronic issue later. However, we have a pretty good knee man in Charlotte who could have checked him out. Since he was projected later in the first round, I am not sure that we ever looked into him with a lot of depth.

I'm fairly certain the article has mistaken his coming out college injury as a knee injury when in fact it was high ankle sprain. If one was to look that up you'd see numerous reports dated right before he was drafted and during Carolin mini camp. It was believed and proved to be minor.

[frash.exe]

For those of you wanting to write off the otah pick as completely incidental in reference to injury, you'd have to ignore the fact that in that very same draft he picked a guy with known ankle problems 13th overall, drafted Bruce Nelson in 2003 knowing he had an injury that ended up being so serious the guy never laced a pair of cleats in the NFL, drafted Brandon Hogan understanding that it would probably take a whole year before he'd be at 100% off an ACL tear, etc.