Jerry Angelo (former Bears GM) ranks the league's QBs, Cam comes in at #4

[Evengelion]

If Cam's performance is the same then what has changed? THe D, that is because they made the difference. You just confirmed that. Cam is the same 250 65 guy.You can't call something that is the same the difference. You have to call what is different the difference and that would be the Defense.

Well, since you like making defensive argument, answer me this question. Were the 12 teams in the playoffs the top 12 defenses in the league? By your logic that should be the case.

[FootballMaestro]

Why, because your point is that Cam isn't the reason we did well it was our defense but I say that the ball control offense lead by Newton had a lot to do with the statically low defense.

 

They go hand in hand.  Show me a top rated defense where the offense was near the bottom in Time of Possession.

 

NO I HAVE NOT DOUBT YOUR A FUGGIN TROLL.

 

Go AWAY wanna be fan.

 

Let him be. He's obviously a troll or "Cam hater". 

 

Cause no one could watch the Panthers this year, and state "it's the defense" as the sole or overwhelming reason the Panthers won 12 games. 

 

No. It was Cam's legitimacy on offense; Ron Ron's better coaching, leadership and decision making. A better special teams; along with a better defense. They all contributed to the 12 win season. It's too simplistic (and National Media/Sheep-like) to credit it to the defense solely/mainly. With out any of those individual components performing they way they did (Cam, Ron, Special Teams; The D), the team doesn't win 12 games, or maybe even make the playoffs. 

 

Cam just happens to be the #1 threat on offense, and the reason why the Panthers can actually score points and win games, from that unit. You replace him at QB, and the Panthers are a sub 500 team. 

[Evengelion]

If Cam's performance is the same then what has changed? THe D, that is because they made the difference. You just confirmed that. Cam is the same 250 65 guy.You can't call something that is the same the difference. You have to call what is different the difference and that would be the Defense.

I'm not sure you were following but you do know that we went through a win streak the last 6-7 games of the 2012 season right? What makes you think this year wasn't just a continuation of that? Unless you think that didn't matter.

[FootballMaestro]

The Texans supposed have one of the best defense in the league, a good OL and 2 number one type WR and a good running back but can't explain to us why they went 2-14 in the worst division in football. But they come trolling Cam here talking about our so-called great defense. If we go by his argument then the top 12 defensive teams in the league were the ones that made the playoffs.

 

The "defense argument" is a convenient excuse for "Cam haters"

 

Russell Wilson has done jack the past 6 games, and he's in the Superbowl. 

 

If Cam had played that poorly (relying on his "D" and running game as Wilson), he would be severely criticized for it. 

 

Wilson's a very fortunate QB at the moment. 

[FootballMaestro]

You put any qb besides rodgers on this team we don't even make the playoffs...

 

1. No consistency in our run game

2. Wr corps non existent besides #89

 

Bingo!

 

And don't forget the OL, for QB's like Brady, Manning, and even Brees (to a certain degree) who need a clean pocket. 

[heel31ok]

Yes, but you exclude major changes in philosophy when you give the defense most of the credit for the teams turnaround. Rivera changed his coaching philosophy. He was 2 -14 in games of 7 points or less before the turnaround this season. You argue that Cam was 7 -9 his second season. Well yeah, if your coach plays "not to lose" instead of "playing to win" the team ends up on the short end of the stick. You take the 2- 14 record for close games and make it about 8 -8 based on ballsy coaching by Ron and you have 3 winning seasons with Cam at quarterback. You take away the Riverboat Ron philosophy this year and I am sure we would have missed the playoffs again.

Put Cam on the Saints team you still have a playoff team. Put Brees here on this panther team and you do not have a playoff team. Cam has a diverse skill-set that hides many of our teams flaws.

Cam is part of the solution and he is arguably the most important part of the team. He and Luke are 1A & 1B.

so what happened in reality? We can play what if but hat doesn't change a thing.Now you want to put Cam on the Saints. He wan't on the Saints.I think ti can be sid the stoutness of the D contributed to the ballsy coaching by RR. He had such confidence in the D that it made it a whole lot easier for him to go for it.

 Of course Cam is part of the solution but that has never been the point now has it?

[Evengelion]

The "defense argument" is a convenient excuse for "Cam haters"

 

Russell Wilson has done jack the past 6 games, and he's in the Superbowl. 

 

If Cam had played that poorly (relying on his "D" and running game as Wilson), he would be severely criticized for it. 

 

Wilson's a very fortunate QB at the moment. 

Man, I don't even bother to bring Wilson in those type of debates as Jerry Angelo would agree that he's not in the same class as Cam.

[heel31ok]

I think what many "good defense" proponents don't realize is: Even if you had this "Good D", you put another QB in there, and the Panthers could still be a 500 or losing team as they were the previous two seasons. 

 

It's Cam that gives the offense legitimacy. With out him (especially with out real weapons and half a offensive line), the team would have no chance to win games. Cam's a play making/game breaker at all times. 

 

If only he had on O-Line that could give him time, and receivers who could get separation or catch the high balls. 

 

Scary thought!

yes maybe  but the fact is without this "good D" we were 6-10, and 7-9. Why do all the arguments revolve around speculation and what if? 

[Evengelion]

Yeah ok all of us panther fans know how much the defense was the reason we were able to get the post season. But this thread is not about the defense. It's about a gm opinion of the best qb's in the league. If someone goes brings up the defense in a thread about the qb it's meant to take away from what that qb accomplished. Next time just stick to what cam did this season without bringing up the defense if it's a thread about just cam. 

And he can always create his own thread and talk about the D all day long.

[heel31ok]

The Texans supposed have one of the best defense in the league, a good OL and 2 number one type WR and a good running back but can't explain to us why they went 2-14 in the worst division in football. But they come trolling Cam here talking about our so-called great defense. If we go by his argument then the top 12 defensive teams in the league were the ones that made the playoffs.

so now you argument is I am a Texans fan? Another fact filled rebuttal. do you want to discuss the Texans now? Smoke and mirrors is not a good answer. Misdirection is not solid ground. reality of our D stands abopve all the what ifs and and other scenario that exists in some other team.

 so now our defense is not great? So called. I feel even better now that I know Iam opposed by logic like that. Lets recap your position.

1. Houston's D sucks, 2. I am a Houston fan therefore the Panthers D is "so called" a great D. Got it.I think you have pretty much argued yourself out of a valid positon.

[Oudaman90]

The 2011 Denver Broncos is a real example of a defense willing a team to win. And even then the offense still had a great running game. The 2000 Baltimore Ravens was the same way. In our case it was defense and Cam. On offense, besides Cam, we have no strengths, only weaknesses.

Cam has to scamble alot to mask our weaknesses in pass blocking, run alot to give our running game life, and be deadly accurate to get anything out of the passing game.

Who else could cover all three of these weaknesses? Every other successful QB has at least on strength outside of himself to fall back on.

Peyton has excellent receivers, a good o-line, and a servicable running game.

Brady has an ok o-line and a strong running game.

Brees has a good o-line and good receivers.

Rodgers has a improved o-line, very good receivers, and a strong running game.

Rivers has a good o-line finally, solid receivers, and a solid running game.

Wilson has solid receivers and an excellent running game.

Kaepernick has a good o-line(which our great defense couldn't do squat against), very good receivers, and a good running game.

Foles has an excellent o-line, excellent running game, and good receivers.

Alex Smith has an excellent o-line, excellent running game, and ok receivers.

Andy Dalton has an excellent o-line, excellent receivers, and a good running game.

Luck actually has a better o-line than us, and dynamic receivers.

Let's not even talk about the Jay Cutlers and the Matthew Staffords who have so much talent on their offense and still lose...

Taking all that into consideration is way Cam is and should be ranked #4...

[heel31ok]

If that's the case they're the main reason we lost in the playoffs too. They couldn't stop the 49er's in the second half. If the defense is the driving force for our wins then they deserve more blame when we lose....

yes that is a valid. argument.

[Evengelion]

I love Cam, but lets be real. He is not better than Brees or Rivers. Then you could also argue Wilson and Luck. 

 

Hell Froles had a 64% completion and threw 27 Tds with only 2 ints. That is great numbers. 

Foles may not even be in the Eagles' long term plan. Chip hasn't even committed to him as he already have an ideal QB for his system, which Foles doesn't fit. Plus, Foles was exposed in the playoffs. The offense couldn't go anywhere. Brees was also exposed too. Sean Payton took the ball out of Brees hand completely because they didn't trust he could carry the team with that gimmick offense in the playoffs. This playoffs show the limitation of a lot of QBs, especially in the defensive oriented NFC. A lot of QBs were exposed in the playoffs this year. I think that's where Angelo is coming from.

[Evengelion]

so now you argument is I am a Texans fan? Another fact filled rebuttal. do you want to discuss the Texans now? Smoke and mirrors is not a good answer. Misdirection is not solid ground. reality of our D stands abopve all the what ifs and and other scenario that exists in some other team.

 so now our defense is not great? So called. I feel even better now that I know Iam opposed by logic like that. Lets recap your position.

1. Houston's D sucks, 2. I am a Houston fan therefore the Panthers D is "so called" a great D. Got it.I think you have pretty much argued yourself out of a valid positon.

Ok, now I know you're a looney. I used the Texans as an example of a team that fits your 'defense carry the team' argument. Never accused you of anything.