Knox Bardeen of BR says we HAVE to re-sign Hardy

[PantherFanOne]

I realize that sign and trade rarely happens but it is nice to have that option if Gettleman decides the risk reward is to great to sign Greg Hardy to a cap killing contract. We will soon have to resign  Cam Newton and add more pieces that we will need to reach the next level.I really like Greg Hardy but even as good as he is, Greg is not the  the QB and only one player, not the complete answer to the teams success.

[panthers55]

We should still have a top ten defense easily even without him and that's without how we draft or go free agency regarding the secondary! It's the offense that needs to be built up not the defence, I don't think it will be as bigger loss as many think it will, yes big shoes to replace for Horton,Alexander or Addison but we have depth there without picking another up. Were just lucky we have two studs at DE if hardy goes we can plug the gap! One players loss shouldn't radically drop our defensive ranking that significantly! He goes he goes but id rather atleast something for him

That is no guaranteed we willl be top 10.  Look how we finished the year.  And replacing Hardy won't be easy at all.  Hardy is better than Johnson right now and part of what made us so good was being able to generate pressure with our front four.  Now imagine  we don't  have Hardy and Johnson gets dinged up like he did this year. Then you have Addison and Alexander who are great rotational players but in no way will be able to come in without a big drop-off. Neither of then are that great on an every down basis. Their worth is coming in rotationally and giving their effort for 10-15 plays,

 

The other thing that you forget is that Hardy has the ability to play DE and  DT which makes him more valuable than any other defensive linemen right now. 

[jptaylor84]

That is no guaranteed we willl be top 10. Look how we finished the year. And replacing Hardy won't be easy at all. Hardy is better than Johnson right now and part of what made us so good was being able to generate pressure with our front four. Now imagine we don't have Hardy and Johnson gets dinged up like he did this year. Then you have Addison and Alexander who are great rotational players but in no way will be able to come in without a big drop-off. Neither of then are that great on an every down basis. Their worth is coming in rotationally and giving their effort for 10-15 plays,

The other thing that you forget is that Hardy has the ability to play DE and DT which makes him more valuable than any other defensive linemen right now.

The guy isn't our qb and isn't the qb of the defence, luke is, for me hardy is a good player but not great! Stats can be deceiving he made most of his sacks mostly against poor olines, he wasn't as effective against better tackles whereas cj is more consistant, hardy doubled up his tally in the last two games which drastically changed his sack numbers.

I don't think his loss will be as huge as we think, the team has basically no offense at all! We have a cam and kalil the rest needs ripping up and starting again the next two to three years! The defense has luke cj td star kk mitchell plus whatever stud dbs we get this year in the draft! You gotta think long term! Do you want to be relevant in five years time? Hurney never built ahead gettleman is thinking that way! Next two years I believe we will draft and sign mainly offensive players be it linemen and weapons for cam! Apart from the secondary and if hardy goes the defense is set! So I'm not worried! Take away from one position to add to two or three! The math gives you the clear answer

[csx]

The other thing that you forget is that Hardy has the ability to play DE and  DT which makes him more valuable than any other defensive linemen right now.

 

 

Playing inside on passing downs does not make you a DT. Johnson has done the same thing for 6 years and is not a DT either.

[panthers55]

The guy isn't out qb and isn't te qb of the defence luke is, for me hardy is a good player but not great! Stats can be deceiving he made most of his sacks mostly against poor olines and doubled up his tally in the last two games.

I don't think his loss will be as huge as we think, the team has basically no offense at all! We have a cam and kalil the rest needs ripping up and starting again the next two to three years! The defense has luke cj td star kk mitchell plus whatever stud dbs we get this year in the draft! You gotta think long term! Do you want to be relevant in five years time? Hurney never built ahead gettleman is thinking that way! Next two years I believe we will draft and sign mainly offensive players be it linemen and weapons for cam! Apart from the secondary and if hardy goes the defense is set! So I'm not worried! Take away from one position to add to two or three! The math goes you the answer

Can't say I agree with most of your conclusions.  First of all as DEs go, Hardy was great this year not good.  Good is 25 tackles and 5 or 6 sacks.  Great is 3rd in sacks overall with 15 sacks and 59 tackles.  Johnson meanwhile had 11 sacks and 30 tackles.  Addison and Anderson combined didn't have what Hardy had alone.

 

The point is all your arguments about how we can't afford Hardy and it will hurt the offense has no merit.  We can easily pay Hardy and still have plenty to spend on FA and the draft.  In fact the argument  could be made that signing Hardy goes a long way to us getting an OL or WR in the first or second instead of going for a DE.  We won't have to give up anything.  Truth is we have  more in dead cap money from the Beason debacle than it will cost us to keep Hardy this year. We could have a cap hit as little as 5 or 6 million for Hardy this year.

 

So no, we don't have to have one or the other, there is no reason we can't have both. 

 

Worse for us would be Hardy going to a division rival and having to face him twice a year.   

[panthers55]

 

Playing inside on passing downs does not make you a DT. Johnson has done the same thing for 6 years and is not a DT either.

It makes him better because he is a DE who can play more than 1 position.  And yeah Johnson can do it as well.  Hardy is just better than Johnson right now. I would rather have a guy who can play inside and out  rather than just inside.

[Peppers90 NC]

it will play itself out, until then i guess we can come to our own assumptions/conclusions.  there isn't anyone on this board that wants to see him play for another team, but we all know he wants to get his money.  it is safe to say he is looking at 10m+/year.  if we can back load it, it might be possible.

[jptaylor84]

Can't say I agree with most of your conclusions. First of all as DEs go, Hardy was great this year not good. Good is 25 tackles and 5 or 6 sacks. Great is 3rd in sacks overall with 15 sacks and 59 tackles. Johnson meanwhile had 11 sacks and 30 tackles. Addison and Anderson combined didn't have what Hardy had alone.

The point is all your arguments about how we can't afford Hardy and it will hurt the offense has no merit. We can easily pay Hardy and still have plenty to spend on FA and the draft. In fact the argument could be made that signing Hardy goes a long way to us getting an OL or WR in the first or second instead of going for a DE. We won't have to give up anything. Truth is we have more in dead cap money from the Beason debacle than it will cost us to keep Hardy this year. We could have a cap hit as little as 5 or 6 million for Hardy this year.

So no, we don't have to have one or the other, there is no reason we can't have both.

Worse for us would be Hardy going to a division rival and having to face him twice a year.

How do you figure $6 mill goes against the cap if we resign hardy? The guy wants $12mil he's reportedly turned down 10, we have around $13 mil in cap space even with restructures and cuts we will lucky to be over $20 mil in cap space with 21 spots to fill on the roster! Hardy isn't and shouldn't happen not if it takes away from other positions, the one main thing holding this team back is offense and it's lack of ability and talent! hardy is a good player but he's not jj watt in my opinion and I don't think he's worth a Charles Johnson type contract, if he had another season similar to last if pay him, but when I look at this team the problem is the secondary, if you have a better one then the pressure isn't on the front four so much as it has been to get constant pressure, when it downs the secondary is exposed, and hardy is key to that with the front four but if that secondary is addressed then it makes hardys leaving less painful if you see what I'm saying, ideal world he stays we build a great secondary and have number one ranked defense, and have space to address the offense I just can't see how it's done but I'm hoping I'm wrong, remeber the guy was a diamond pickup he was a sixth rounder not expected to be as good as he has been, there w

[top dawg]

Sure it does, it makes you a DE who can play more than 1 position.  And yeah Johnson can do it as well.  Hardy is just better than Johnson right now.

 

That's debatable.  Johnson was basically hurt for two games (perhaps closer to three), and he still put up good numbers. Although I can't find it, I am pretty sure I saw somewhere that Johnson would have been just as productive, if not more so, had he not gotten hurt. In any event, in my opinion Johnson is the better overall defensive end.

[jptaylor84]

Can't say I agree with most of your conclusions. First of all as DEs go, Hardy was great this year not good. Good is 25 tackles and 5 or 6 sacks. Great is 3rd in sacks overall with 15 sacks and 59 tackles. Johnson meanwhile had 11 sacks and 30 tackles. Addison and Anderson combined didn't have what Hardy had alone.

The point is all your arguments about how we can't afford Hardy and it will hurt the offense has no merit. We can easily pay Hardy and still have plenty to spend on FA and the draft. In fact the argument could be made that signing Hardy goes a long way to us getting an OL or WR in the first or second instead of going for a DE. We won't have to give up anything. Truth is we have more in dead cap money from the Beason debacle than it will cost us to keep Hardy this year. We could have a cap hit as little as 5 or 6 million for Hardy this year.

So no, we don't have to have one or the other, there is no reason we can't have both.

Worse for us would be Hardy going to a division rival and having to face him twice a year.

How do you figure $6 mill goes against the cap if we resign hardy? The guy wants $12mil he's reportedly turned down 10, we have around $13 mil in cap space even with restructures and cuts we will lucky to be over $20 mil in cap space with 21 spots to fill on the roster! Hardy isn't and shouldn't happen not if it takes away from other positions, the one main thing holding this team back is offense and it's lack of ability and talent! hardy is a good player but he's not jj watt in my opinion and I don't think he's worth a Charles Johnson type contract, if he had another season similar to last if pay him, but when I look at this team the problem is the secondary, if you have a better secondary then the pressure isn't on the front four so much, as it was all last season to get constant pressure, when it didnt the secondary was exposed,and hardy is key to that with the front four, but if that secondary is addressed then it makes hardys leaving less painful if you see what I'm saying, ideal world he stays we build a great secondary and have number one ranked defense, and have space to address the offense I just can't see how it's done but I'm hoping I'm wrong, remeber the guy was a diamond pickup he was a sixth rounder not expected to be as good as he has been, there would be no need to go get a DE in the draft this year just bcos hardy goes! We have depth and can pick up a free agent DE or late draft pickup, seriously it's not the end of the world! Let's concentrate on offense and put up points and not need to depend in the defence again this would take away the pain of losing hardy, you cover other bases to camouflage another less handicapped one, seriously a better offense and secondary will more than make up for Greg hardy leaving that just obvious

[panthers55]

it will play itself out, until then i guess we can come to our own assumptions/conclusions.  there isn't anyone on this board that wants to see him play for another team, but we all know he wants to get his money.  it is safe to say he is looking at 10m+/year.  if we can back load it, it might be possible.

And there is no reason we can't give  him 10 million a year.  But you don't have to guarantee all of it and you can have a cap hit of 5 or 6 million in 2014 and perhaps 8 million in 2015.  By the time his cap is 10 million or more we will be in a much better cap situation and we can easily afford him.  If we get rid of Godfrey and add his saving to what we paid Hardy this year and we will have covered the cap hit for Hardy next year.

 

What is amazing to me is that everyone has said that Johnson was worth his contract which results in a cap hit of 16 million in 2014 and we are saying Hardy isn't worth keeping at less than half of that amount in 2014.  Ridiculous.

[jptaylor84]

And there is no reason we can't give him 10 million a year. But you don't have to guarantee all of it and you can have a cap hit of 5 or 6 million in 2014 and perhaps 8 million in 2015. By the time his cap is 10 million or more we will be in a much better cap situation and we can easily afford him. If we get rid of Godfrey and add his saving to what we paid Hardy this year and we will have covered the cap hit for Hardy next year.

What is amazing to me is that everyone has said that Johnson was worth his contract which results in a cap hit of 16 million in 2014 and we are saying Hardy isn't worth keeping at less than half of that amount in 2014. Ridiculous.

Sounds like a good deal but that's down to hardy to want to do that, all He has said is he Wants to get paid, Johnson was merely paid to much to stop him going Atlanta, we would all prefer to keep him but the likelihood unless he does a deal like you suggest is not good, but I don't think it will be as huge a loss as you say, it will be big of course with his numbers he puts in but if we get secondary help then the whole front seven is helped out big time! And if we put up some poins we may actually not need to depend on the d but again it's all guess work depending in what route we go draft and free agency

[panthers55]

How do you figure $6 mill goes against the cap if we resign hardy? The guy wants $12mil he's reportedly turned down 10, we have around $13 mil in cap space even with restructures and cuts we will lucky to be over $20 mil in cap space with 21 spots to fill on the roster! Hardy isn't and shouldn't happen not if it takes away from other positions, the one main thing holding this team back is offense and it's lack of ability and talent! hardy is a good player but he's not jj watt in my opinion and I don't think he's worth a Charles Johnson type contract, if he had another season similar to last if pay him, but when I look at this team the problem is the secondary, if you have a better one then the pressure isn't on the front four so much as it has been to get constant pressure, when it downs the secondary is exposed, and hardy is key to that with the front four but if that secondary is addressed then it makes hardys leaving less painful if you see what I'm saying, ideal world he stays we build a great secondary and have number one ranked defense, and have space to address the offense I just can't see how it's done but I'm hoping I'm wrong, remeber the guy was a diamond pickup he was a sixth rounder not expected to be as good as he has been, there w

You obviously don't understand how cap space works.  And no he didn't turn down 10 million he supposedly turned down 8 million. I have already pointed out how we can have a cap hit of 5 or 6 million.  Just consider that the signing bonus is prorated over the life of a contract and since you are giving him tens of millions, his salary is nothing in year 1. Most of his salary in years 3 and beyond is not guaranteed so you are just giving him his number with no need to have to actually pay it.

 

You post is so off base otherwise it is hard to know where to start.  He won't get a Charles Johnson contract and everyone knows it.  Comparing him to JJ Watt who is a OLB not a hand in the dirt DE is comparing apples to oranges.  They really get different money.

And the whole idea that we don't need a great pass rush if we make the secondary better is not born out by facts.  No pass rush makes every secondary look bad.  But a great pass rush makes every secondary look good just like it did for us this year.  Particularly playing zone which absolutely requires a great pass rush.  So no you are totally upside on that point.

[panthers55]

Sounds like a good deal but that's down to hardy to want to do that, all He has said is he Wants to get paid, Johnson was merely paid to much to stop him going Atlanta, we would all prefer to keep him but the likelihood unless he does a deal like you suggest is not good, but I don't think it will be as huge a loss as you say, it will be big of course with his numbers he puts in but if we get secondary help then the whole front seven is helped out big time! And if we put up some poins we may actually not need to depend on the d but again it's all guess work depending in what route we go draft and free agency

The problem with Johnson was not getting too much, it was getting too much guaranteed.  Right now if we dump Johnson we end up with 16 million in dead cap space which is the remainder of his guaranteed signing bonus. If we had given him less guaranteed money we could get rid of him which we can't.  Just like Beason, Williams and Stewart, you can't get rid of them because of the dead cap space not because of what we gave them as total salary which is not guaranteed.