Prediction: Raiders make a go at Hardy.

[IGSaint]

He has said he wants to be on a winning team

 

 

Oakland has no chance the next few years in their division

 

 

He has said this multiple times

 

He also said he wants to get paid what's he's worth. He's not going to get paid what he thinks he should get in carolina. Many others have compromised their value in winning to get a bigger paycheck. I think hardy will do the same. 

[Cary Kollins]

What? Why? Do you think the Rams would trade Robert Quinn for a 2nd round pick at the end of his contract? Hardy is a 25-year old pro bowl DE. He has 8 good years left and 5 of them could be potential pro bowl years. A 2nd round pick for him is garbage. Good lord...

Because we can't afford what he will demand. A 2nd round pick sure beats nothing.

And we are not the Rams so why even bring that up? Do the Rams have to plan on contracts for Cam Newton and Luke Kuechly?

Are the Rams in "cap hell" like Carolina has been? Do the Panthers have an abundance of draft picks thanks to RGme?

[Woodie]

What? Why? Do you think the Rams would trade Robert Quinn for a 2nd round pick at the end of his contract? Hardy is a 25-year old pro bowl DE. He has 8 good years left and 5 of them could be potential pro bowl years. A 2nd round pick for him is garbage. Good lord...

You can't look at it as a snapshot, you have to look at the big picture.  First of all, the draft pick would be the secondary reason he is traded.  The main reason is because we can't afford him and still pay all of our other upcoming core FA's, or bring in anyone else that could improve the team.  Nobody here or the team would just give up Hardy for a 2nd if we only had to consider his impact on the team.  It's the overall cost of keeping him that's making this a possibility. 

 

If trading him gives us the cap flexibility to fill a couple of key needs in FA (legitimate starters, not short-term fixes), along with another potential/expected starter from the pick(s) we received, then it could be an overall gain.  Yes, you sacrifice in one area, but if you make good decisions and improve in multiple positions, then the move should make the team better as a whole.     

[Woodie]

About trading Hardy:

I am guessing a fourth rounder in 2014 to cover the loss of the 3rd round comp pick in 2015 is about all you are going to get.  Sign and trades are pretty rare.

I don't agree with this at all.  Hardy isn't some middle of the road FA who will only provide moderate production.  He's a pro bowler just coming into his prime who plays one of the premier positions in the league, and excels at it.  He's also been dominant for a couple of years now, so is not a one-year wonder.  Therefore, it's reasonable for teams to think he will keep up this level of production, and possibly even improve on it.  And that's something teams are willing to pay for.  I have no doubt there will be many teams that would be willing to pony up for a sure thing and someone who has proven he can get to the QB and be disruptive in the run game (most DE's excel at one or the other, but very few excel at both).

 

While anyone trading for Hardy knows they will have to give him a big salary, some teams wouldn't want to also give up a high pick as well.  So, getting a 1st would be iffy.  It would have to be a team with enough cap space, and most likely feeling they are close to contending, and who is also probably picking late in the first.  So I'll agree that getting a 1st is unlikely.  But, I think if we do trade him, we would get a 2nd and probably some change.  DE's like Hardy are rare in the NFL, so I have no doubt a team with the cap space to sign him will be willing to give up a 2nd to get a cornerstone of their defense.  A 2nd along with a big contract is still good value to most any team that can afford it for a player of Hardy's magnitude.     

[carolina-chuck]

Of course they would if he Gman let him walk. Who wouldnt want a beast like Hardy?

 

I just cant see Raiders trading picks for Hardy tho if we "franchise" the man.

[MHS831]

That's because it's a rare situation...

 

The reason it is rare is because the Panthers would have to work out the deal before the trade.  They could not offer a signing bonus unless they want to pay it.  So the agent has to agree to all of the money going to salary.  If you had a player who would qualify for a $30 million signing bonus--guaranteed money----you do not agree to that deal.  That is what makes it rare, not Hardy's talent or situation.

 

The Panthers would get a good deal if they had him under contract, but the team that wants Hardy would not offer a first or second in all probability.  They would wait for him to hit free agency and outbid everyone else.

 

So, sign and trade is not a good deal for Hardy, and giving up a first rounder when you have a ton of cap space is not smart either. 

[MHS831]

I don't agree with this at all.  Hardy isn't some middle of the road FA who will only provide moderate production.  He's a pro bowler just coming into his prime who plays one of the premier positions in the league, and excels at it.  He's also been dominant for a couple of years now, so is not a one-year wonder.  Therefore, it's reasonable for teams to think he will keep up this level of production, and possibly even improve on it.  And that's something teams are willing to pay for.  I have no doubt there will be many teams that would be willing to pony up for a sure thing and someone who has proven he can get to the QB and be disruptive in the run game (most DE's excel at one or the other, but very few excel at both).

 

While anyone trading for Hardy knows they will have to give him a big salary, some teams wouldn't want to also give up a high pick as well.  So, getting a 1st would be iffy.  It would have to be a team with enough cap space, and most likely feeling they are close to contending, and who is also probably picking late in the first.  So I'll agree that getting a 1st is unlikely.  But, I think if we do trade him, we would get a 2nd and probably some change.  DE's like Hardy are rare in the NFL, so I have no doubt a team with the cap space to sign him will be willing to give up a 2nd to get a cornerstone of their defense.  A 2nd along with a big contract is still good value to most any team that can afford it for a player of Hardy's magnitude.     

 

Just looking at Hardy alone makes him worth a high pick, but the situation makes him worth less in a trade. 

1. His agent would probably not go for a sign-and-trade because the other team would be able to offer a signing bonus; the Panthers would have to pay that if they traded him.   Since they would not, the player and his agent would have to agree to all of the money going to salary.

2. With no bonus, the first year salary would be very front loaded to simulate guaranteed money.  Hardy's agent is not going for a deal with no unguaranteed money unless it is lucrative.  Something like a first year of $25million, second year of $20million, and third and fourth year of $6 million each, for example. 

 

For a team to agree to a front-loaded deal like that, they are not going to cough up top dollar in a trade. They know that Carolina is trying to get something for him vs. letting him walk.  Carolina's negotiating power is also limited because he is not under a reasonable contract.   Again, franchising him does not make him appealing because the trade partner would only get him for a year (pretty sure about that)

 

These are not ideal trading conditions, so the asking price is compromised.

[Jangler]

Has anyone here considered maybe hardy likes living in charlotte and playing for rivera? We might not have a huge pocket book this offseason but we still offer tons of other incentives to stay

 

 I don't see that happening, it would be nice though... This is the contract where Hardy will make his money. 

[Pantherman]

As the representative of the Raiders in our huddle draft I can say without a doubt the Raiders are the least talented team in the NFL. That being said, they have $63 million in cap space, just watch them give Hardy $63 million a year and field a 43 man team.

 

Hmmm... 63 million$. And you wonder why they suck so much every year. They whether save money and rent old guys and crappy players every few years and move on. They never invest in good talent. That goes the same for the Browns. Browns and Raiders seem to be only 2 teams just about every year has more them 50 million in cap. Because they think they can get cheap players and expect them to win season after season. Got news for them. It want work.  LOL

[Woodie]

The reason it is rare is because the Panthers would have to work out the deal before the trade.  They could not offer a signing bonus unless they want to pay it.  So the agent has to agree to all of the money going to salary.  If you had a player who would qualify for a $30 million signing bonus--guaranteed money----you do not agree to that deal.  That is what makes it rare, not Hardy's talent or situation.

 

The Panthers would get a good deal if they had him under contract, but the team that wants Hardy would not offer a first or second in all probability.  They would wait for him to hit free agency and outbid everyone else.

 

So, sign and trade is not a good deal for Hardy, and giving up a first rounder when you have a ton of cap space is not smart either. 

No, under the non-exclusive tag a team can sign Hardy to an offer, and negotiate a compensation package with us.  For instance, if the Raiders (for example) like Hardy and want to sign him, but are only willing to give up their #2, they can make him an offer, and negotiate with us to reduce the compensation from two #1's to a #2.  Of course, any offer in this instance would be contingent upon both teams being able to come to an agreement on compensation.

 

So we wouldn't have to actually do a "sign and trade."  I think some are just misusing that term to explain that we can tag him and get compensated by another team that wants to sign him.  More accurately, it would be a "tag and negotiate compensation to let him go to another team," but that's a bit clunky, so I guess it's easier to say sign and trade.  The point is that the other team, not the Panthers would actually be the one's signing him to a contract, including any bonuses or incentives.      

[Woodie]

Just looking at Hardy alone makes him worth a high pick, but the situation makes him worth less in a trade. 

1. His agent would probably not go for a sign-and-trade because the other team would be able to offer a signing bonus; the Panthers would have to pay that if they traded him.   Since they would not, the player and his agent would have to agree to all of the money going to salary.

2. With no bonus, the first year salary would be very front loaded to simulate guaranteed money.  Hardy's agent is not going for a deal with no unguaranteed money unless it is lucrative.  Something like a first year of $25million, second year of $20million, and third and fourth year of $6 million each, for example. 

 

For a team to agree to a front-loaded deal like that, they are not going to cough up top dollar in a trade. They know that Carolina is trying to get something for him vs. letting him walk.  Carolina's negotiating power is also limited because he is not under a reasonable contract.   Again, franchising him does not make him appealing because the trade partner would only get him for a year (pretty sure about that)

 

These are not ideal trading conditions, so the asking price is compromised.

I see the problem.  Read my response above, we wouldn't actually be the one's signing him, the other team would.  They would just have to negotiate a compensation package with us to keep from having to give up two first round picks.

[MHS831]

No, under the non-exclusive tag a team can sign Hardy to an offer, and negotiate a compensation package with us.  For instance, if the Raiders (for example) like Hardy and want to sign him, but are only willing to give up their #2, they can make him an offer, and negotiate with us to reduce the compensation from two #1's to a #2.  Of course, any offer in this instance would be contingent upon both teams being able to come to an agreement on compensation.

 

So we wouldn't have to actually do a "sign and trade."  I think some are just misusing that term to explain that we can tag him and get compensated by another team that wants to sign him.  More accurately, it would be a "tag and negotiate compensation to let him go to another team," but that's a bit clunky, so I guess it's easier to say sign and trade.  The point is that the other team, not the Panthers would actually be the one's signing him to a contract, including any bonuses or incentives.      

 

Good stuff and thanks for the insights- I feel as thought I was responding to suggestions that we negotiate a "sign and trade."  However, I was not sure about the franchise tag and how that money would be perceived in a trade.  However, a non-exclusive tag leaves us holding a big salary if the deal is not done in advance.  

 

Would you take a second rounder for Hardy?  I would.  I was not thinking about this angle because it was not brought up, but it is the way to go. 

[MHS831]

I see the problem.  Read my response above, we wouldn't actually be the one's signing him, the other team would.  They would just have to negotiate a compensation package with us to keep from having to give up two first round picks.

 

Gotcha.  And I had either forgotten or never knew this was an option. It gives me hope that we could make a move like this.  Dumb if we do not.

 

Let me pose a question:  Are we still talking about matching the top 5 salaries at the position?

[Woodie]

Gotcha.  And I had either forgotten or never knew this was an option. It gives me hope that we could make a move like this.  Dumb if we do not.

 

Let me pose a question:  Are we still talking about matching the top 5 salaries at the position?

Yes, if we keep him on the tag, then we will have to pay him the average of the top five at his position.  It's actually the higher between the avg. of the top five or 120% of his salary, but since he's coming off his rookie contract it would certainly be top five.