If Dwayne Jarrett blows up, can anyone stop our offense?

[CharlotteBeer.com]

Here is the thing. yes I said if you are such a big jake supporter then you should know the facts about him which you obviously don't. You as much admitted you don't care about stats or facts so stop getting all bent when I say you don't know the facts. You admit you don't care to know!! That wasn't an insult but as you implied yourself, it was the truth.

But if that hurt your feelings then I apologize. I had no idea you were so thin-skinned that you would go on and on for pages about a one or two sentence comment.

If on the other hand you had replied that if this included the first 2 games smitty was suspended then the results could be skewed, then we could have had a basis for discussion.

Try these facts.

Minnesota- Jake 17 completions, Smith got 4

Atlanta- Jake 20 completions- Smith got 6

Kansas City- Jake 14- Smitty caught 6

Tampa I- Jake 20- Smitty got 6

NO I- Jake 14- Smith 6

Arizona- Jake 20- Smith 5

Oakland- Jake 7- Smith 1

Detroit- Jake 10- Smith 6

Atlanta 2- Jake 21, Smith 8

Green Bay- Jake 12, Smith 4,

Tampa II- Jake 14, Smitty 9,

Denver- Jake 17, Smith 9,

Giants- Jake 11, Smith 3,

NO II- Jake 14, Smith 5,

And if you say that attempts are more accurate, consider that Smitty caught a higher percentage of balls thrown his way than anyone else which means his completions as a percentage of Jake's completions will be higher than balls thrown his way as a percentage of attempts by Jake. So if we looked at attempts it would be a lower percentage of the totals and further prove my point.

All I do is look at them and report what they say. That is called forming an opinion based on the facts not forming an opinion despite the facts.

Now you look at the above facts and tell me, does he have tunnel vision and fail to spread the ball? The reality from my point of view is that Smith's receptions are a function of the secondary coverage and Smitty's great talent not tunnel vision or failure to spread the ball around. He wasn't even the leading receiver in 6 of those 14 games. Why not?? Teams doubled Smitty forcing Jake to throw somewhere else.

It isn't having an opinion, as much as it is having an informed opinion based on facts rather than one that is directly disputed by the facts.

I would rep you, but I've got to spread it around a bit.

:iagree:

[rippadonn]

So, how about that Dwayne Jarrett?

:crickets:

:iamwithstupid:

Yeah, what he said...

[panthers55]

maybe pure total targets on the year. Roddy White received the largest percentage of targets. So, basically like 65% of Ryans throws were intended for White. Marshall could have had more targets but only 60% of Culters passes could have been intended for Marhsall. Those are made up numbers just to try to get across what I was saying.

Roddy White was targeted 148 times. Ryan attempted 434 passes so his percentage was 34%

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7203&team=1

http://www.nfl.com/players/mattryan/profile?id=RYA238179

If that was the most then it suggests that no quarterback targets a receiver more than about 1/3rd of the time. Given they are the team's best receiver, that sounds about right. I bet the play called makes them the primary receiver at least that often so it isn't surprising.

[Metal_Sparty]

It isn't having an opinion, as much as it is having an informed opinion based on facts rather than one that is directly disputed by the facts.

Nice. And you didn't mention that he's the #1 receiver so he'll get more attempts, he comes up with the big catch when all are covered more often than others, AND we rarely have more than 3 receivers out there.

[panthers55]

Nice. And you didn't mention that he's the #1 receiver so he'll get more attempts, he comes up with the big catch when all are covered more often than others, AND we rarely have more than 3 receivers out there.

That is certainly true and the reality is that even with what you mentioned, Jake still doesn't target him more than 1/3 of the time. As I said it is likely that other teams try and take Smitty away so Jake has to find other guys. Teams are trying hard to take Smith out of the game just as we are trying to come up with plays to get him loose. That is why making blanket statements like Jake has tunnelvision is just so simplistic and inadequate to explain what is actually happening.

[panthers55]

QB and the depth on the O-line make our offense questionable, but I'd go to war with Smitty, Double Trouble, and the rest of the starters.

Last year we had a lot more questions on the O line than this year. At least this year we have a very strong starting line-up. I feel real confident that Magazu can get the most out of the guys we have. Omiyale never started a game until last year and came in for Gross and did a good job at the toughest position on the line to play which is left tackle. That is picking good guys and doing a good job getting them ready to play.

Our offense is a whole lot more solid then the defense at this point.

[hepcat]

I just remember a few games where Jarrett was in the slot on a play-action pass and he just didn't beat his man off the line. I was thinking "Jake, give Jarrett a chance!" But he just didn't get open. If he can maybe show a little more quickness off the snap, he might have a better chance or making some more plays, but until then I don't think he's stepped up his game to the pro level. Seems to be a recurring problem for USC wideouts.

[DaveThePanther2008]

Here is the thing. yes I said if you are such a big jake supporter then you should know the facts about him which you obviously don't. You as much admitted you don't care about stats or facts so stop getting all bent when I say you don't know the facts. You admit you don't care to know!! That wasn't an insult but as you implied yourself, it was the truth.

But if that hurt your feelings then I apologize. I had no idea you were so thin-skinned that you would go on and on for pages about a one or two sentence comment.

If on the other hand you had replied that if this included the first 2 games smitty was suspended then the results could be skewed, then we could have had a basis for discussion.

Try these facts.

Minnesota- Jake 17 completions, Smith got 4

Atlanta- Jake 20 completions- Smith got 6

Kansas City- Jake 14- Smitty caught 6

Tampa I- Jake 20- Smitty got 6

NO I- Jake 14- Smith 6

Arizona- Jake 20- Smith 5

Oakland- Jake 7- Smith 1

Detroit- Jake 10- Smith 6

Atlanta 2- Jake 21, Smith 8

Green Bay- Jake 12, Smith 4,

Tampa II- Jake 14, Smitty 9,

Denver- Jake 17, Smith 9,

Giants- Jake 11, Smith 3,

NO II- Jake 14, Smith 5,

And if you say that attempts are more accurate, consider that Smitty caught a higher percentage of balls thrown his way than anyone else which means his completions as a percentage of Jake's completions will be higher than balls thrown his way as a percentage of attempts by Jake. So if we looked at attempts it would be a lower percentage of the totals and further prove my point.

All I do is look at them and report what they say. That is called forming an opinion based on the facts not forming an opinion despite the facts.

Now you look at the above facts and tell me, does he have tunnel vision and fail to spread the ball? The reality from my point of view is that Smith's receptions are a function of the secondary coverage and Smitty's great talent not tunnel vision or failure to spread the ball around. He wasn't even the leading receiver in 6 of those 14 games. Why not?? Teams doubled Smitty forcing Jake to throw somewhere else.

It isn't having an opinion, as much as it is having an informed opinion based on facts rather than one that is directly disputed by the facts.

Stats are what you make them out to be. Where as you accuse me of not knowing Jake or OUR team. Let me run some of my own findings. They easily back my claim that Jake over targeted SS and MY CLAIM of Tunnelvision.

Before I give you my facts. I realize as the #1 receiver you should receive more throws. These finding also count the Pass Interference calls as the receiver was the intended target. So the numbers will vary from official stats.

1. Steve Smith was the #1 Target in all 14 regular season games he played. NOT ONE PLAYER for ONE GAME got more passes throw at them then SS. Moose had one game with equal amount of throws. And that was the last game against NO.

2. Steve Smith in 14 games was targeted 50 times more than his Moose (139-89). That is nearly 2 full games. IN those 14 games Jake average 25.78 throws a game.

3. Of the WRs ONLY S. Smith was targeted 54% of the time.

4. Of the WRs and TEs (all down field targets) He was targeted 45% of the time.

5. Of the 14 regular season games Smitty was Targeted 38.5% of the time. Where as Moose was only 25% 18.5% percent more.

6. On more than one occassion Jake threws Smitty's way 5 straight attempts.

7. One more than one occassion Smith caught less than 1/2 of the target passes. Which means he was probably covered pretty good cause Smitty doesn't drop too many passes.

8. In three games Smitty was thrown the ball over half of Jakes attempts. 3 more game he was one or two passes shy of 50%.

So seems you try to B.S. your way into making everyone believe I don't know JAKE and the Panthers. Maybe you should complete your research before opening your mouth and talking the garbage that flows from it.

Bottom line is These figures may not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt but they clearly back my OPINION that you say is FACTLESS.

MY OPINION IS BASED ON THE ABOVE FACTS JAKE OCCASSIONAL HAS TUNNELVISON TOWARDS SMITTY.

TYVM

As far as being thin skinned as you say, Why insult me in the 1st place, you have no clue who I am. I realize you live your life in this forum and are a BMOC. But, no need in insulting people because you think you know more than they do. I love following this team and being apart of this forum.

I work 84hrs a week(Do the math that is 12 hrs days) for the last 6 years supporting our Troops that give you the right to voice your 1st Amendment rights. In fact, I spent 25yrs before that in the US NAVY doing the same thing. I thought I would take a moment to comment on my favorite team and BTW my favorite QB. I didn't think I had to break out the F_CKING stat books to make an opinion.

HAVE A NICE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[panthers55]

Stats are what you make them out to be. Where as you accuse me of not knowing Jake or OUR team. Let me run some of my own findings. They easily back my claim that Jake over targeted SS and MY CLAIM of Tunnelvision.

Before I give you my facts. I realize as the #1 receiver you should receive more throws. These finding also count the Pass Interference calls as the receiver was the intended target. So the numbers will vary from official stats.

1. Steve Smith was the #1 Target in all 14 regular season games he played. NOT ONE PLAYER for ONE GAME got more passes throw at them then SS. Moose had one game with equal amount of throws. And that was the last game against NO.

2. Steve Smith in 14 games was targeted 50 times more than his Moose (139-89). That is nearly 2 full games. IN those 14 games Jake average 25.78 throws a game.

3. Of the WRs ONLY S. Smith was targeted 54% of the time.

4. Of the WRs and TEs (all down field targets) He was targeted 45% of the time.

5. Of the 14 regular season games Smitty was Targeted 38.5% of the time. Where as Moose was only 25% 18.5% percent more.

6. On more than one occassion Jake threws Smitty's way 5 straight attempts.

7. One more than one occassion Smith caught less than 1/2 of the target passes. Which means he was probably covered pretty good cause Smitty doesn't drop too many passes.

8. In three games Smitty was thrown the ball over half of Jakes attempts. 3 more game he was one or two passes shy of 50%.

So seems you try to B.S. your way into making everyone believe I don't know JAKE and the Panthers. Maybe you should complete your research before opening your mouth and talking the garbage that flows from it.

Bottom line is These figures may not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt but they clearly back my OPINION that you say is FACTLESS.

MY OPINION IS BASED ON THE ABOVE FACTS JAKE OCCASSIONAL HAS TUNNELVISON TOWARDS SMITTY.

TYVM

As far as being thin skinned as you say, Why insult me in the 1st place, you have no clue who I am. I realize you live your life in this forum and are a BMOC. But, no need in insulting people because you think you know more than they do. I love following this team and being apart of this forum.

I work 84hrs a week(Do the math that is 12 hrs days) for the last 6 years supporting our Troops that give you the right to voice your 1st Amendment rights. In fact, I spent 25yrs before that in the US NAVY doing the same thing. I thought I would take a moment to comment on my favorite team and BTW my favorite QB. I didn't think I had to break out the F_CKING stat books to make an opinion.

HAVE A NICE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where did you get your numbers? Game logs or a link? I haven't seen any site which breaks out attempts per game per receiver without going to the play by play and count them up manually. If you did that much work then very nice. If you had done this after I questioned your assertion, we would be having a discussion about the facts instead of a back and forth about who got insulted or whether stats were manipulated and other irrelevant comments.

As for your numbers, I don't see that they suggest tunnelvision anymore than they suggest that when you only have 2 good receivers almost all your passes will go to these 2 guys and you look for the all-pro most of the time. Smitty caught 60% of his passes (had 6 drops in 129 tergets) and almost 48% went for first downs. He lead the league in yards per catch. Moose at number 2 caught 60% as well but had 8 drops in 102 targets and 42% went for first downs.

After that you have a bunch of guys who caught around 20 balls (Williams, King, Rosario) but no one who is clutch.

My contention isn't that Jake doesn't throw more to Smitty than anyone else. Frankly he would be crazy if he didn't. I just think it isn't as you say tunnelvision. I think it is a combination of special chemistry between the 2, confidence that Smitty will catch the ball or at least not let it get intercepted, higher likelihood it will result in a first down, and the fact that Smitty gets open more often than other players. How many plays like our smoke route are designed specifically for Smith. How many do you think are designed to get Moose open.

That is mitigated by other teams trying to take Smitty away with double coverage, not having a third receiver to take pressure off Smitty, the fact that when you only throw 20 -25 passes a game then you try and make them count which means you go to your all pro.

I think we agree that Smitty gets the most looks. The difference is that you think it is the fault of the quarterback while I think it is designed that way on purpose and is actually a positive quality of Jake that he can find Smitty in traffic when our other quarterbacks couldn't when Jake was hurt. Instead of tunnelvision I think it is chemistry. That is where the opinion comes in and if you had prefaced it with the above I wouldn't have said anything.

As for the long hours, I own 4 businesses, put in the same long hours, and do my part by tutoring potential recruits in improving their ASVAB scores so they can qualify to get into the military. we all do our part!! It is fine to state opinions without facts, but expect people like me to go back and review stats to see if we agree. If I find the numbers agree with you I say nothing or agree. If they disagree I state them. Tht is where the back and forth in my mind should occur, not talking about stats being manipulated. More accurately the conversation should be that the numbers are the numbers. What differs is the interpretation of what the mean. And that is where the discussion should be. Why do you think that people should be able to say anything and not be challenged by others especially when they have numbers which may appear counter? That is what discussion boards are all about.

And if you are going to complain about insults it doesn't matter if you start them or respond, as long as you give it out as you did above, expect it back as well. Except you will note that contrary to your assertions I rarely insult others directly as you may note from the lack of response to your insult above. And I have apologized earlier while you have not in case you are keeping score.

[DaveThePanther2008]

Where did you get your numbers? Game logs or a link? I haven't seen any site which breaks out attempts per game per receiver without going to the play by play and count them up manually. If you did that much work then very nice. If you had done this after I questioned your assertion, we would be having a discussion about the facts instead of a back and forth about who got insulted or whether stats were manipulated and other irrelevant comments.

As for your numbers, I don't see that they suggest tunnelvision anymore than they suggest that when you only have 2 good receivers almost all your passes will go to these 2 guys and you look for the all-pro most of the time. Smitty caught 60% of his passes (had 6 drops in 129 tergets) and almost 48% went for first downs. He lead the league in yards per catch. Moose at number 2 caught 60% as well but had 8 drops in 102 targets and 42% went for first downs.

After that you have a bunch of guys who caught around 20 balls (Williams, King, Rosario) but no one who is clutch.

My contention isn't that Jake doesn't throw more to Smitty than anyone else. Frankly he would be crazy if he didn't. I just think it isn't as you say tunnelvision. I think it is a combination of special chemistry between the 2, confidence that Smitty will catch the ball or at least not let it get intercepted, higher likelihood it will result in a first down, and the fact that Smitty gets open more often than other players. How many plays like our smoke route are designed specifically for Smith. How many do you think are designed to get Moose open.

That is mitigated by other teams trying to take Smitty away with double coverage, not having a third receiver to take pressure off Smitty, the fact that when you only throw 20 -25 passes a game then you try and make them count which means you go to your all pro.

I think we agree that Smitty gets the most looks. The difference is that you think it is the fault of the quarterback while I think it is designed that way on purpose and is actually a positive quality of Jake that he can find Smitty in traffic when our other quarterbacks couldn't when Jake was hurt. Instead of tunnelvision I think it is chemistry. That is where the opinion comes in and if you had prefaced it with the above I wouldn't have said anything.

As for the long hours, I own 4 businesses, put in the same long hours, and do my part by tutoring potential recruits in improving their ASVAB scores so they can qualify to get into the military. we all do our part!! It is fine to state opinions without facts, but expect people like me to go back and review stats to see if we agree. If I find the numbers agree with you I say nothing or agree. If they disagree I state them. Tht is where the back and forth in my mind should occur, not talking about stats being manipulated. More accurately the conversation should be that the numbers are the numbers. What differs is the interpretation of what the mean. And that is where the discussion should be. Why do you think that people should be able to say anything and not be challenged by others especially when they have numbers which may appear counter? That is what discussion boards are all about.

And if you are going to complain about insults it doesn't matter if you start them or respond, as long as you give it out as you did above, expect it back as well. Except you will note that contrary to your assertions I rarely insult others directly as you may note from the lack of response to your insult above. And I have apologized earlier while you have not in case you are keeping score.

I didnt think I had to go and show stats to voice an opinion but because you insist that is exactly what I did. Page by page, game by game.

My point is really this. You can take stats and make them out to whatever it is you want them to. You can take the same figures and prove your point. My point is I have seen Jake throw to Smitty when he should have. Many times.

I can stand by my stance on MY OPINION with those facts. You can twist them the way you want. I see them a different. Which is exactly my point.

WHY DO I HAVE TO GO AND GRAB STATS TO VOICE AN OPINION? Why are you questioning my knowledge of Jake or this team because you see the STATS differently?

[Fireball77]

FWIW I think you both have made some good points.

[DaveThePanther2008]

FWIW I think you both have made some good points.

Which is why they Call it an OPINION.

Sadly I guess in this forum you cannot voice an opinion unless you spend countless hours digging up stats, facts and figures to back it up.

Go Panthers

[Fireball77]

I think sometimes how things are stated are more of an issue than what was stated.

At least I know I think that way. I think a mix of stats and personal observation with support are probably the best way to make any case if one is trying to prove something.

[DaveThePanther2008]

I think sometimes how things are stated are more of an issue than what was stated.

At least I know I think that way. I think a mix of stats and personal observation with support are probably the best way to make any case if one is trying to prove something.

NOT!!!! Why should anyone have to find figures to voice an opinion. If someone wants to go get figures to voice an opinion that is all find and good. If they choose to make a statement or opinion without a bunch facts and figures he/she should be able to. PERIOD.

They should not be called an idiot, stupid, moron or WTFever because "Mr I Think I Know More Than Anybody" disagrees with it and throw a fact or two in to back his OPINION.

I am done with this.:beatdeadhorse5: I will not throw facts out everytime I have an opinion. I will NOT be ridiculed by anyone because they disagree. Plain and simple. :rant: