Panthers camp countdown Defensive line critical

[mantal]

I hope I am wrong. It won't be the first or last. I know all last season (early on) I was complaining b/c Williams was getting too many touches and Stewart needed more......I hope Fox makes me look like a bigger boob than you already think I am. I will man up, my friend, if need be.

I don't think you're a boob, I just think you're very focused on a point that I don't agree with. No problem with that...

[panthers55]

We aren't good or effective w/ the front four pressure but Fox still heavily relies on that and not blitzing for his pressure overall. Yes, we do blitz guys....that doesn't mean Fox isn't a front four guy.

I don't think Fox has a reputation for getting the most out of his talent. Prior to Peppers voicing it, the fanbase didn't think he got the most out of Peppers. I don't think nor do others even think he is getting the most out of Smitty he can.

2 players? How many Carolina starters have left under Fox on defense and not left b/c of injury/retiring? There isn't exactly a large pool of guys to pull from......Jenkins was the last to leave and he definately didn't play worse. For the most part, the back 7 during the early years of Fox played behind the best front 4 in the NFL......they benefited from that while in Carolina.

Harris is just a hard hitter from a tough/hardnosed system. He learned that in Chicago. He came here and implemented what he learned in Chicago.... he stinks in coverage but is nasty. That isn't something Foxy brought out of Harris.

We actually blitzed a lot the past few years. You probably wouldn't recognize it though since they rarely got to the quarterback and left us largely defenseless with holes in the secondary.

And yes Fox is considered one of the better caoches in the league and gets alot out of his players. Because you don't agree doesn't matter much.

As for Peppers, those who felt he was misused don't have a clue which includes most of the fan base. I would agree that using him on space may not be that usefull but he was moved all over the line with good effect. Trgo wasn't a good DC but he was a good line coach.

Regarding Smitty, we use him pretty well for a team that runs more than it passes. Doubt he would do much better in other systems since he would have to share catches.

You obviously aren't trying. How about Draft who started at MLB and Witherspoon who played weakside and now MLB for ST Louis. There are 2 players from ST Louis alone. Neither of them have done better elsewhere.

How about Marlon McCree, Ricky Manning, Reggie Howard, Tyrone Poole, Jerrod Cooper, on defense. Muhammed, Hartwig, Drew Carter, Kerry Colbert, Blake Brockermeyer, Todd Sauerbraun, etc. And that isn't really scratching more than the surface.

Jenkins would be one that hasn't necessarily played better and won't get big numbers because he is 3-4 guy now. But he will play at a high level in either case.

As for Harris the question wasn't who taught him how to play but whether they play better in our current system than he did in Chicago. and the answer is he is doing better because this system is the better fit and that was the point. As I said earlier Fox does get the best out of the players not trying to fit them in preconceived roles or positions.

[CRA]

We actually blitzed a lot the past few years. You probably wouldn't recognize it though since they rarely got to the quarterback and left us largely defenseless with holes in the secondary.

And yes Fox is considered one of the better caoches in the league and gets alot out of his players. Because you don't agree doesn't matter much.

As for Peppers, those who felt he was misused don't have a clue which includes most of the fan base. I would agree that using him on space may not be that usefull but he was moved all over the line with good effect. Trgo wasn't a good DC but he was a good line coach.

Regarding Smitty, we use him pretty well for a team that runs more than it passes. Doubt he would do much better in other systems since he would have to share catches.

You obviously aren't trying. How about Draft who started at MLB and Witherspoon who played weakside and now MLB for ST Louis. There are 2 players from ST Louis alone. Neither of them have done better elsewhere.

How about Marlon McCree, Ricky Manning, Reggie Howard, Tyrone Poole, Jerrod Cooper, on defense. Muhammed, Hartwig, Drew Carter, Kerry Colbert, Blake Brockermeyer, Todd Sauerbraun, etc. And that isn't really scratching more than the surface.

Jenkins would be one that hasn't necessarily played better and won't get big numbers because he is 3-4 guy now. But he will play at a high level in either case.

As for Harris the question wasn't who taught him how to play but whether they play better in our current system than he did in Chicago. and the answer is he is doing better because this system is the better fit and that was the point. As I said earlier Fox does get the best out of the players not trying to fit them in preconceived roles or positions.

Totally disagree about Fox using Peppers to get the max production out of him. Way too many coverage assignments for him. Is he effective doing that? Yes. Maybe when he played w/ Rucker and Jenkins we could afford that but not now.

Well, Steve Young thinks he would perform better in another offense. In our offense? Well, Fox probably has maxed him out in considering what we do so I probably got carried away brining his name up.

Draft had a few good years in Atlanta and Spoon has had some decent years w/ St. Loius prior to last season.......you can definately argue there play in Carolina wasn't there best football. Cooper was basically a special teamer here. Manning, Poole, etc. purely benefited from a fantastic DL and not coaching imo. Moose went and played with a horrific QB. Moose would have been productive in any legit offense. Colbert and Carter sucked here and continued when he left. I don't see how you give Fox's coaching/scheme as the reason for there "success" here and "failure" elsewhere.

What did he do w/ Lucas? Was he using Lucas to get the most out of him or was he having him play a percieved role?

[AKPantherFan]

People keep saying that scheme is totally different now and that it is going to drastically change. The article points out the very opposite which is what Ive been saying. Im pretty sure every defenses goal is to get to "run to the ball" and make a play. Ill beleive there will be change when I see it. Im just tired of buying the hype every year only to see the same exact thing.

Come on man, people were saying the same thing about the offense.

Look at it now. Two years ago we couldnt even convert a 3rd down, now were considered as one of the best running teams in the entire NFL.

You never know!~!!!

We sure as hell WILL find out though!!!!

[panthers55]

Totally disagree about Fox using Peppers to get the max production out of him. Way too many coverage assignments for him. Is he effective doing that? Yes. Maybe when he played w/ Rucker and Jenkins we could afford that but not now.

Well, Steve Young thinks he would perform better in another offense. In our offense? Well, Fox probably has maxed him out in considering what we do so I probably got carried away brining his name up.

Draft had a few good years in Atlanta and Spoon has had some decent years w/ St. Loius prior to last season.......you can definately argue there play in Carolina wasn't there best football. Cooper was basically a special teamer here. Manning, Poole, etc. purely benefited from a fantastic DL and not coaching imo. Moose went and played with a horrific QB. Moose would have been productive in any legit offense. Colbert and Carter sucked here and continued when he left. I don't see how you give Fox's coaching/scheme as the reason for there "success" here and "failure" elsewhere.

What did he do w/ Lucas? Was he using Lucas to get the most out of him or was he having him play a percieved role?

He was not in coverage very often, maybe 3 or 4 times a game, big deal. The defensive line scheme was specifically designed to keep Pepper's from getting double-teamed and allow he and Lewis to get the pressure in 2008. Despite Pepper's whining, this defense was designed to maximize his play. If he doesn't do well he can't blame Fox, he needs to look at the man in the mirror.

Is your Steve Young comment about Steve Smith? Couldn't tell from the convoluted statements. Still Steve Young was a great quarterback, so far he has no experience as an offensive coordinator so his opinion is one view.

And your comments about past players just confirm what I said earlier, guys who start here and go elsewhere as free agents don't do better. Coincidence? Not likely. And I said that Fox had a system which maximized the player's ability not that it was a great scheme. Stay with the conversation. You can make all the excuses you want but the facts are the same, guys who leave here rarely play better once they do.

And finally Lucas had his best year for us in 2005. Since then he hasn't been great. If he goes to Seattle and plays great then he would qualify as someone who performed better once they left. Until then he is just another in a long line of guys who struggled after they left us after performing well here at least for a few years..

[CRA]

He was not in coverage very often, maybe 3 or 4 times a game, big deal. The defensive line scheme was specifically designed to keep Pepper's from getting double-teamed and allow he and Lewis to get the pressure in 2008. Despite Pepper's whining, this defense was designed to maximize his play. If he doesn't do well he can't blame Fox, he needs to look at the man in the mirror.

Is your Steve Young comment about Steve Smith? Couldn't tell from the convoluted statements. Still Steve Young was a great quarterback, so far he has no experience as an offensive coordinator so his opinion is one view.

And your comments about past players just confirm what I said earlier, guys who start here and go elsewhere as free agents don't do better. Coincidence? Not likely. And I said that Fox had a system which maximized the player's ability not that it was a great scheme. Stay with the conversation. You can make all the excuses you want but the facts are the same, guys who leave here rarely play better once they do.

And finally Lucas had his best year for us in 2005. Since then he hasn't been great. If he goes to Seattle and plays great then he would qualify as someone who performed better once they left. Until then he is just another in a long line of guys who struggled after they left us after performing well here at least for a few years..

Peppers recieves too many assignments that don't involve rushing the passer on passing downs. Dropping in coverage, spying, etc. Prior to Peppers coming out...I would say the majority on this board voiced a similar complaint.

Again, the guys you mentioned didn't neccessary play there best football under Fox. Some played better before they got here and some played just as good when they left.......

Lucas was his best before he arrived in Carolina. You are again trying to lump Lucas into a group where you claim Fox got the most out of him and everyone else got out less......that simply isn't a fact in regards to the guys you are talking about.

[rayzor]

Peppers received too many assignments that don't involve rushing the passer on passing downs. Dropping in coverage, spying, etc. Prior to Peppers coming out...I would say the majority on this board voiced a similar complaint.

Again, the guys you mentioned didn't neccessary play there best football under Fox. Some played better before they got here and some played just as good when they left.......

Lucas was his best before he arrived in Carolina. You are again trying to lump Lucas into a group where you claim Fox got the most out of him and everyone else got out less......that simply isn't a fact in regards to the guys you are talking about.

fixed it.

funny thing about that is that it kind of contradicts what you were saying about fox being a front 4 guy. if he only used the front four for rushing then what was peppers doing getting dropped back and why is it that it was davis who gave that giant hit on rodgers that he says was the hardest hit on him?

if fox is a front 4 guy then trgo's scheme wasn't coinciding with fox's philosophy. if that is true then what does that mean about fox having control over the D?

i do believe that meeks relies on the front 4 for pressure on the QB...predominately the DEs. It is a constant pressure on the QB unlike what was required of the DEs with Trgo who tried to get fancy and use overly-complicated schemes. trgo had a technical approach to the game and meeks has an approach that focuses on fundamentals and aggression. there is a huge difference and, again, that is what has been witnessed by those who have been there and seen how things are and compared it with the way things were run under trgo.

even the QB coaching philosophy has changed. it is stressing some very different things. a change in management, even in just attitude, can provoke some very serious changes in performance. in this case, where we have a different language being used and reportedly different schemes (according to the players who would know much more than you).

the players know what they are talking about. they aren't morons and they aren't spin doctors. they are witnessing some very different things going on compared to what was there under trgo. you can deny that all you want but it doesn't change the fact that these things are taking place.

[CRA]

fixed it.

funny thing about that is that it kind of contradicts what you were saying about fox being a front 4 guy. if he only used the front four for rushing then what was peppers doing getting dropped back and why is it that it was davis who gave that giant hit on rodgers that he says was the hardest hit on him?

if fox is a front 4 guy then trgo's scheme wasn't coinciding with fox's philosophy. if that is true then what does that mean about fox having control over the D?

i do believe that meeks relies on the front 4 for pressure on the QB...predominately the DEs. It is a constant pressure on the QB unlike what was required of the DEs with Trgo who tried to get fancy and use overly-complicated schemes. trgo had a technical approach to the game and meeks has an approach that focuses on fundamentals and aggression. there is a huge difference and, again, that is what has been witnessed by those who have been there and seen how things are and compared it with the way things were run under trgo.

even the QB coaching philosophy has changed. it is stressing some very different things. a change in management, even in just attitude, can provoke some very serious changes in performance. in this case, where we have a different language being used and reportedly different schemes (according to the players who would know much more than you).

the players know what they are talking about. they aren't morons and they aren't spin doctors. they are witnessing some very different things going on compared to what was there under trgo. you can deny that all you want but it doesn't change the fact that these things are taking place.

Fox is a front four guy. That is his bread and butter and what he prefers. There is imo no point debating that. When Fox does bring in the blitz he does like to get cute w/ Peppers. I don't see it as a contradiction at all. Trgo did heavily rely on the front 4 in Carolina....Again, just b/c they don't rush the front four EVERY time doesn't mean that isn't what Fox prefers and does.....

again, say what you want......practicing new drills, new language, new talk and a new coordinator....isn't going to change who the head coach is and what he will make sure does and does not occur. We heard from the players before about what Trgo practiced with them and told them what HE (Trgo) wanted them to be able to do in upcoming seaons......the players also said none of that occured b/c Foxy had a different view.

[panthers55]

fixed it.

funny thing about that is that it kind of contradicts what you were saying about fox being a front 4 guy. if he only used the front four for rushing then what was peppers doing getting dropped back and why is it that it was davis who gave that giant hit on rodgers that he says was the hardest hit on him?

if fox is a front 4 guy then trgo's scheme wasn't coinciding with fox's philosophy. if that is true then what does that mean about fox having control over the D?

i do believe that meeks relies on the front 4 for pressure on the QB...predominately the DEs. It is a constant pressure on the QB unlike what was required of the DEs with Trgo who tried to get fancy and use overly-complicated schemes. trgo had a technical approach to the game and meeks has an approach that focuses on fundamentals and aggression. there is a huge difference and, again, that is what has been witnessed by those who have been there and seen how things are and compared it with the way things were run under trgo.

even the QB coaching philosophy has changed. it is stressing some very different things. a change in management, even in just attitude, can provoke some very serious changes in performance. in this case, where we have a different language being used and reportedly different schemes (according to the players who would know much more than you).

the players know what they are talking about. they aren't morons and they aren't spin doctors. they are witnessing some very different things going on compared to what was there under trgo. you can deny that all you want but it doesn't change the fact that these things are taking place.

Exactly. You must spread....................

Most folks don't understand things like zone blitzing or that the reason Pepper's was not rushing sometimes was to confuse the offense by switching him with a linebacker to confuse the offensive line blocking and quarterback reads, not use him as a pass defender. It didn't work because Trgo schemes are easy to see and he did things like never change the corner assignments which made it easy to exploit. Trgo also didn't turn the linemen loose to go after the quarterback but would read and react and flow to the play, making them suspect to play action for example.

Meeks is more of a shoot the gap and get pressure at all costs. The back 7 will support the run defense and cover the zone. He works on better spacing, not being out of place, and fundamentals. He assembles fast speedy guys who can close gaps and plays aggressively within a zone concept much like Tampa did under Kiffin.

But critics and haters are going to try and pick things apart and find the negatives no matter what players and folks say. Problem is that many of them wouldn't see the differences even when they witness them. They don't know what they should be looking for.

[CRA]

Exactly. You must spread....................

Most folks don't understand things like zone blitzing or that the reason Pepper's was not rushing sometimes was to confuse the offense by switching him with a linebacker to confuse the offensive line blocking and quarterback reads, not use him as a pass defender. It didn't work because Trgo schemes are easy to see and he did things like never change the corner assignments which made it easy to exploit. Trgo also didn't turn the linemen loose to go after the quarterback but would read and react and flow to the play, making them suspect to play action for example.

Meeks is more of a shoot the gap and get pressure at all costs. The back 7 will support the run defense and cover the zone. He works on better spacing, not being out of place, and fundamentals. He assembles fast speedy guys who can close gaps and plays aggressively within a zone concept much like Tampa did under Kiffin.

But critics and haters are going to try and pick things apart and find the negatives no matter what players and folks say. Problem is that many of them wouldn't see the differences even when they witness them. They don't know what they should be looking for.

you are just preaching a pro John Fox viewpoint and pretending it is all fact.

players have come out before and voiced Fox dictated what Trgo did on defense.....and that Trgo wanted to run different stuff. You just choose to ignore that and blame it all on Trgo......

[rayzor]

Fox is a front four guy. That is his bread and butter and what he prefers. There is imo no point debating that. When Fox does bring in the blitz he does like to get cute w/ Peppers. I don't see it as a contradiction at all. Trgo did heavily rely on the front 4 in Carolina....Again, just b/c they don't rush the front four EVERY time doesn't mean that isn't what Fox prefers and does.....

again, say what you want......practicing new drills, new language, new talk and a new coordinator....isn't going to change who the head coach is and what he will make sure does and does not occur. We heard from the players before about what Trgo practiced with them and told them what HE (Trgo) wanted them to be able to do in upcoming seaons......the players also said none of that occured b/c Foxy had a different view.

translated...

sorry i won't try and help you have a more open mind anymore.

[panthers55]

Fox is a front four guy. That is his bread and butter and what he prefers. There is imo no point debating that. When Fox does bring in the blitz he does like to get cute w/ Peppers. I don't see it as a contradiction at all. Trgo did heavily rely on the front 4 in Carolina....Again, just b/c they don't rush the front four EVERY time doesn't mean that isn't what Fox prefers and does.....

again, say what you want......practicing new drills, new language, new talk and a new coordinator....isn't going to change who the head coach is and what he will make sure does and does not occur. We heard from the players before about what Trgo practiced with them and told them what HE (Trgo) wanted them to be able to do in upcoming seasons......the players also said none of that occured b/c Foxy had a different view.

Your analysis is incredibly simplistic. He is a front four guy. What does that mean? All the coaches who run a base 4-3 are front four guys. That doesn't mean they play remotely the same or use the guys in the same fashion. Or that Trgo has run the gap assignments in 2008 with the linemen as he did in 2005 for example with different people and different strengths and weaknesses.

And if you think that new schemes, emphasis, drills and a new coordinator doesn't make a difference then I am wasting my time with you. Coaching has everything to do with improving play and improving execution. You do that with drills, schemes and practicing the little things every day.

You also might want to read a little about Meeks. Our weakness last year was scheme sometimes but execution most of the time. Meeks is all about execution and discipline.

If you want to have something to complain about, here is a Meeks article with some interesting questions. It isn't whether Meeks can get the most out of his players, he did that in Indy quite well. It is whether he can get the team to perform well together as a unit. And that is the knock on Carolina. Great individual talent that underacheives as a unit. So the real question is whether Meeks can mesh the team into a cohesive unit that plays better than their individual parts or underperforms like it did last year.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/185139-match-or-misfit-can-ron-meeks-and-the-carolina-mesh-for-success

[panthers55]

you are just preaching a pro John Fox viewpoint and pretending it is all fact.

players have come out before and voiced Fox dictated what Trgo did on defense.....and that Trgo wanted to run different stuff. You just choose to ignore that and blame it all on Trgo......

And Meeks ran Tony Dungy's version of the Tampa 2 which he may change up to accomodate Fox or run a hybrid of his own. We have plowed this ground ad nauseum. Of course he will run what Fox wants him to run, it is Fox's team and he picked Meeks because they share similarities. Doesn't mean Meeks won't put his stamp on things or do what he wants either. As long as it works Fox would be stupid to interfere, it isn't like he has nothing better to do than look over everyone's shoulder.

The problem with Trgo are well documented no need to rehash ancient history. He is gone and I say good riddance. We will see what happpend with Meeks. And frankly as long as the defense plays well I don't care who is running it. Don't know why you would either.

[CRA]

basically this is what is occuring. There is a group that hold Fox responsible for the lame offensive decisions, lame defensive philosophy and acknowledge that he is a micro-manager.

There is a group that elects to pin everything on whoever just walked out the door.