Panthers camp countdown Defensive line critical

[bleys]

you can't put that much stock in what players say prior to a season b/c normally it doesn't pan out like the picture they paint. Plus, if Trgo never quit....they would still be learning lots of new stuff on D and would be saying the same things.

Not sure how you come up with this, but you are allowed to have your own opinion.. I don't look at what players say and think to myself, "they just like wasting their breath"... You can pick out when people are just saying things politically correct, but that doesn't mean it's 99% of the time like you all keep assuming..

When you look at major changes in franchises, even our own with Davidson coming in, you then hear the scheme changes. to think it doesn't is stubborn, once again, on whoever fails to recognize this fact.

You all think in extremes, and this is where all these debates come in.. Just because I say the scheme is changing doesn't mean it's as drastic as you all are assuming. Fact is, scheme is changing. That doesn't mean it's as drastic as changing to a 3-4...

You can have balanced views without assuming so much from people.

[CRA]

Not sure how you come up with this, but you are allowed to have your own opinion.. I don't look at what players say and think to myself, "they just like wasting their breath"... You can pick out when people are just saying things politically correct, but that doesn't mean it's 99% of the time like you all keep assuming..

When you look at major changes in franchises, even our own with Davidson coming in, you then hear the scheme changes. to think it doesn't is stubborn, once again, on whoever fails to recognize this fact.

You all think in extremes, and this is where all these debates come in.. Just because I say the scheme is changing doesn't mean it's as drastic as you all are assuming. Fact is, scheme is changing. That doesn't mean it's as drastic as changing to a 3-4...

You can have balanced views without assuming so much from people.

how I come up w/ it? Every year defensive players talk about "new" things that are being implemented....just like last season. Regardless of if coaching changes are being made there are always changes.....and players are always excited about it when talking to the press.

I think the biggest assumptions being made are that the defense is going to look very different this year. It will look slightly different but in reality it will be a heavy dose of the tendencies Fox likes to have in his units....

and again w/ Davidson, the offense is simply more productive because of player personel/execution....not b/c we are doing anything drastically different under him.

I do understand what you are saying about drastic change vs. a new scheme......but again, that supports what the "Fox will be play Fox ball" supporters are saying. Technically, there may be some changes but both the offense and defense coordinators are going to implent there own version of Fox ball......and we won't see a huge difference on Sunday except for possibly better execution or talent being plugged in (and that is imo exactly what we have seen w/ the Panther offense).

[bleys]

how I come up w/ it? Every year defensive players talk about "new" things that are being implemented....just like last season. Regardless of if coaching changes are being made there are always changes.....and players are always excited about it when talking to the press.

I think the biggest assumptions being made are that the defense is going to look very different this year. It will look slightly different but in reality it will be a heavy dose of the tendencies Fox likes to have in his units....

and again w/ Davidson, the offense is simply more productive because of player personel/execution....not b/c we are doing anything drastically different under him.

I do understand what you are saying about drastic change vs. a new scheme......but again, that supports what the "Fox will be play Fox ball" supporters are saying. Technically, there may be some changes but both the offense and defense coordinators are going to implent there own version of Fox ball......and we won't see a huge difference on Sunday except for possibly better execution or talent being plugged in (and that is imo exactly what we have seen w/ the Panther offense).

You are right, things are being added and taken away from defenses.. But every time a player says "it's like learning a whole new language with a lot of new concepts", then you can not honestly sit there and say they are just giving lip service..

NO ONE has said it's going to be drastic. But to keep saying it isn't going to change is stubborn.

As I said in another thread, you don't rock the boat too much when it comes to momentum and confidence. Most people don't realize schemes don't change drastically. The biggest change in a scheme is when you change from 3-4 to 4-3, or vice versa. But you do have a wide range of changes still when you focus on a cover 3 to a cover 2. Things operate differently, and to ignore that is, as I have said, stubborn.

No one is talking extremes, the quicker you realize that, the better.

then we can move on from these pointless debates and get talking about football... If anyone here remembers how that works.

Davidson himself changes a lot just by the playcalling. But I think many don't understand that concept. The scheme is going to change, that's a fact. How much? who cares, let's quit splitting hairs and get back to football..

[CRA]

You are right, things are being added and taken away from defenses.. But every time a player says "it's like learning a whole new language with a lot of new concepts", then you can not honestly sit there and say they are just giving lip service..

NO ONE has said it's going to be drastic. But to keep saying it isn't going to change is stubborn.

As I said in another thread, you don't rock the boat too much when it comes to momentum and confidence. Most people don't realize schemes don't change drastically. The biggest change in a scheme is when you change from 3-4 to 4-3, or vice versa. But you do have a wide range of changes still when you focus on a cover 3 to a cover 2. Things operate differently, and to ignore that is, as I have said, stubborn.

No one is talking extremes, the quicker you realize that, the better.

then we can move on from these pointless debates and get talking about football... If anyone here remembers how that works.

well, I think the talk has to be taken for what it is...simply players being excited about a new year. I don't think it is "lip service" but I don't put much stock in it either.

I think a lot of people think they are going to be looking at a brand new defense next year (based on some of the talk I have read). Fox has proven to be one of the most stubborn coaches in the NFL.....so I think my assumptions based on his history or ok to make.

I do realize it, but it seems you are disagreeing and agreeing w/ me. I simply think it doesn't matter who the DC is under Fox. Fox is a defensive guy and what occurs on that side of the ball is going to what he wants......and we know 1st hand what he likes to do defensively.

[bleys]

well, I think the talk has to be taken for what it is...simply players being excited about a new year. I don't think it is "lip service" but I don't put much stock in it either.

I think a lot of people think they are going to be looking at a brand new defense next year (based on some of the talk I have read). Fox has proven to be one of the most stubborn coaches in the NFL.....so I think my assumptions based on his history or ok to make.

I do realize it, but it seems you are disagreeing and agreeing w/ me. I simply think it doesn't matter who the DC is under Fox. Fox is a defensive guy and what occurs on that side of the ball is going to what he wants......and we know 1st hand what he likes to do defensively.

Fox and Hurney are both people who were 1st timers at running a franchise. You almost have to expect them to go through phases where they learn and change. You saw that jump exponentially in the '08 draft. Of course you don't change things drastically for the most part. You make drastic changes, you could go from a good team to a horrible team.

I'm not saying you are wrong in that the defense won't look 10 times different. But you have to understand the scheme is changing. Players don't say "The scheme is different and the verbage is different" when they are just excited... That's what you are ignoring..

But to each their own...

[CRA]

Fox and Hurney are both people who were 1st timers at running a franchise. You almost have to expect them to go through phases where they learn and change. You saw that jump exponentially in the '08 draft. Of course you don't change things drastically for the most part. You make drastic changes, you could go from a good team to a horrible team.

I'm not saying you are wrong in that the defense won't look 10 times different. But you have to understand the scheme is changing. Players don't say "The scheme is different and the verbage is different" when they are just excited... That's what you are ignoring..

But to each their own...

I think Fox/Hurney have done a great job drafting. They have a great eye.

The scheme can change....but the flaws of a Fox defense will remain. Just like on offense, the only solution is to find players who can execute what Fox wants to do.....b/c he simply doesn't take players and play to their strengths....and will only force players to execute his style of football. IMO, without a much better performance by the front 4.....the D will look almost exactly like it did last season (regardless of scheme).

[rayzor]

boils down to this.

either the players know what they are talking about or they don't.

i'm inclined to believe that they do seeing that they are involved a bit more than i am and are privy to things that i am not because...well...they are there and part of it and me? i'm just like you guys....i'm here on the outside looking in.

some of you guys seem to think you know more than the players do. that's awesome. congrats on that.

just know that everyone else thinks you're full of crap because the choice is either the players are or you are.

there is more than enough talk from players and people who have actually been there to watch what was going on at practices who are saying things aren't just a little bit different but are significantly different. those who are saying things aren't changing haven't been there to see what is going on. all they have is this notion that nothing ever changes and that everything being said is window dressing.

[CRA]

boils down to this.

either the players know what they are talking about or they don't.

i'm inclined to believe that they do seeing that they are involved a bit more than i am and are privy to things that i am not because...well...they are there and part of it and me? i'm just like you guys....i'm here on the outside looking in.

some of you guys seem to think you know more than the players do. that's awesome. congrats on that.

just know that everyone else thinks you're full of crap because the choice is either the players are or you are.

there is more than enough talk from players and people who have actually been there to watch what was going on at practices who are saying things aren't just a little bit different but are significantly different. those who are saying things aren't changing haven't been there to see what is going on. all they have is this notion that nothing ever changes and that everything being said is window dressing.

I'm not trying to come off like I know things going on behind the scenes......

I just know Carolina players have spoken up prior to seasons starting (under Fox) and talked about changes on both sides of the ball. The changes imo haven't actually shown on Sundays....therefore, I no longer put much faith in player talk.

IMO, that is not me acting like I know more than players do about what Carolina will do. I'm just going off history......and history has shown that just b/c they talk about changes doesn't mean we see them on Sundays .....and that is not my way of calling them full of shiat but just going of what has occured.

[panthers55]

I'm not trying to come off like I know things going on behind the scenes......

I just know Carolina players have spoken up prior to seasons starting (under Fox) and talked about changes on both sides of the ball. The changes imo haven't actually shown on Sundays....therefore, I no longer put much faith in player talk.

IMO, that is not me acting like I know more than players do about what Carolina will do. I'm just going off history......and history has shown that just b/c they talk about changes doesn't mean we see them on Sundays .....and that is not my way of calling them full of shiat but just going of what has occured.

But from a defensive point of view the same coordinator has been here since 2003 after Del Rio left after the 2002 season. So all the talk about changes would have been minor and largely unrecognizable to the casual fan. This is the first major change at DC in the past 7 years. So looking at we have done in the past may be a poor indicator of the present or more precisely the future.

Then again I still hear from some that our offense hasn't changed that much from Henning to Davidson. And honestly folks who subscribe to that theory are generally a waste of time to discuss much football with since they can't see obvious differences and ultimately see nothing beyond the fact that we still run and pass the ball. NOt that I am lumping you in the same boat but if you think that because we still play a cover zone that things are the same, then you are lookng at our defense like you would an onion and peeling only the initial layer.

[rayzor]

I'm not trying to come off like I know things going on behind the scenes......

I just know Carolina players have spoken up prior to seasons starting (under Fox) and talked about changes on both sides of the ball. The changes imo haven't actually shown on Sundays....therefore, I no longer put much faith in player talk.

IMO, that is not me acting like I know more than players do about what Carolina will do. I'm just going off history......and history has shown that just b/c they talk about changes doesn't mean we see them on Sundays .....and that is not my way of calling them full of shiat but just going of what has occured.

in other words you aren't saying you don't think that they know what they are talking about but you don't think they know what they are talking about.

you aren't coming out and saying that they are deluded but the evidence, as far as you can see, is that they are. or that they are wrong.

gotcha.

[CRA]

But from a defensive point of view the same coordinator has been here since 2003 after Del Rio left after the 2002 season. So all the talk about changes would have been minor and largely unrecognizable to the casual fan. This is the first major change at DC in the past 7 years. So looking at we have done in the past may be a poor indicator of the present or more precisely the future.

Then again I still hear from some that our offense hasn't changed that much from Henning to Davidson. And honestly folks who subscribe to that theory are generally a waste of time to discuss much football with since they can't see obvious differences and ultimately see nothing beyond the fact that we still run and pass the ball. NOt that I am lumping you in the same boat but if you think that because we still play a cover zone that things are the same, then you are lookng at our defense like you would an onion and peeling only the initial layer.

basically, what I am getting at is that...I think most have some critiscisms about Fox's defensive philosophy. I don't see that changing at all......so even though Meeks will change the scheme of the D.....the few aspects that leave many hitting there heads against the will remain. I also think Meeks was brought in b/c his scheme does fit Fox's philosophy.....but I don't think we are currently built for that next season. ALL OF THAT is frustrating b/c we have the talent to win now.

I do sometimes join the group that the offense hasn't changed much.....while Davidson has changed a lot of what we are doing upfront....Fox's elements always remain and those are normally the issues people complain about anyway.

Everything that people complain about will remain on the defensive side. Fox will implement those tendencies into the new scheme.....and that is why I say things won't change.

Fox is a good coach. He isn't a great coach.

[CRA]

in other words you aren't saying you don't think that they know what they are talking about but you don't think they know what they are talking about.

you aren't coming out and saying that they are deluded but the evidence, as far as you can see, is that they are. or that they are wrong.

gotcha.

No, I'm just saying it is talk. I just like to wait until Sundays before I start acting like I know what is going on.....b/c right now we have not seen Meeks coach a single down in Carolina under Fox and what type of relationship they will have come game time.

[panthers55]

basically, what I am getting at is that...I think most have some critiscisms about Fox's defensive philosophy. I don't see that changing at all......so even though Meeks will change the scheme of the D.....the few aspects that leave many hitting there heads against the will remain. I also think Meeks was brought in b/c his scheme does fit Fox's philosophy.....but I don't think we are currently built for that next season. ALL OF THAT is frustrating b/c we have the talent to win now.

I do sometimes join the group that the offense hasn't changed much.....while Davidson has changed a lot of what we are doing upfront....Fox's elements always remain and those are normally the issues people complain about anyway.

Everything that people complain about will remain on the defensive side. Fox will implement those tendencies into the new scheme.....and that is why I say things won't change.

Fox is a good coach. He isn't a great coach.

It depends on what you call Fox tendencies. If that is to stop the run and not give up the big play then you are right, things will remain the same. If you were hoping we will go to a Philly style of all out blitzing and man under pressure, then you will be sorely disappointed. Meeks does play a read and react cover 2 which keeps thing underneath and reduces the big play. And that is still the bend don't break philosophy. Which I don't personally like either. Still what I hope are differences are the increased level of conditioning, faster breaks to the ball, fewer blown coverages, better fundamental play and more pressure on the quarterback. Under Trgo the past few years we had no pressure on the quarterback yet we blitzed a fair amount of time with poor results. Problem was we were too vanilla, showed our hand too early and were an easy defense to figure out. Our scheme was too complex with one of the thickest playbooks around. Problem is that it didn't correlate to a more complex scheme to figure out just a harder to learn.

If Meeks does nothing other than to finally have a simple scheme that players can execute well, it will be a signiicant change over Trgo.

[CRA]

It depends on what you call Fox tendencies. If that is to stop the run and not give up the big play then you are right, things will remain the same. If you were hoping we will go to a Philly style of all out blitzing and man under pressure, then you will be sorely disappointed. Meeks does play a read and react cover 2 which keeps thing underneath and reduces the big play. And that is still the bend don't break philosophy. Which I don't personally like either. Still what I hope are differences are the increased level of conditioning, faster breaks to the ball, fewer blown coverages, better fundamental play and more pressure on the quarterback. Under Trgo the past few years we had no pressure on the quarterback yet we blitzed a fair amount of time with poor results. Problem was we were too vanilla, showed our hand too early and were an easy defense to figure out. Our scheme was too complex with one of the thickest playbooks around. Problem is that it didn't correlate to a more complex scheme to figure out just a harder to learn.

If Meeks does nothing other than to finally have a simple scheme that players can execute well, it will be a signiicant change over Trgo.

In simple terms, Fox is a front 4 guy just like Meeks. We aren't built for that kind of scheme in Carolina currently. Fox doesn't care though, he will try to make the guys we have fit what he likes to do......that is a common theme seen on both sides of the ball. We have the talent to win now.......but Fox will try to put the square peg in the round hole the majority of the time. IMO