Meeks will prove to be the best acquisition of the offseason

[mantal]

This lovefest must stop!

Yep, this obsession with Hayden has really gone on too long...

[Snake]

I agree 100%.

It's hard for most people to be objective about the abilities of people they dislike/hate though. I struggle with it also, but I try to be fair. Of course, I don't hate anyone on this team or associated with this team, so right now that's easy for me to say! My biggest test was when Carr was playing. I really really REALLY despised him...a lot.

The fact that Fox had to keep him from the home crowed showed he stuck with him too long. Our O-line was not all that great that year but he really did make it worse after the first hit he took. He def was damaged goods.

[Fireball77]

Fox, to me, sounded almost disgusted with Carr's weak minded mentality when he said that to the press about wanting to protect Carr from the crowd. Since when does Fox ever even hint at throwing his guys under the bus in the press? I am hard pressed to think of such a time. He didn't need to say that at all. I think he was sending Carr a message with that quote to the press.

I don't know, I don't think we will ever know for sure, but I would bet Moore was far too raw and unstudied in the offense to put him out there when Vinnie just coudn't push through. You can ruin a young QB to put him out there in a bad situation on a bad team when he is that raw IMO.

[panthers55]

Fox, to me, sounded almost disgusted with Carr's weak minded mentality when he said that to the press about wanting to protect Carr from the crowd. Since when does Fox ever even hint at throwing his guys under the bus in the press? I am hard pressed to think of such a time. He didn't need to say that at all. I think he was sending Carr a message with that quote to the press.

I don't know, I don't think we will ever know for sure, but I would bet Moore was far too raw and unstudied in the offense to put him out there when Vinnie just coudn't push through. You can ruin a young QB to put him out there in a bad situation on a bad team when he is that raw IMO.

Thats the thing. Fox didn't really want to play Carr but he had no choice. When it became apparent that Carr wasn't going to be able to win particularly at home, they got Moore ready as soon as they could. Moore got his first practice with the first team and a week later was the starting quarterback. Moore performed well with a limited game plan.. Then he struggled somewhat in preseason with the whole package. This TC and preseason should help determine if he has the ability to step in if called upon.

[CRA]

come up with the quotes from people on or associated with the team or from people who actually know what they are talking about to support your statements and you might have people believing that you have an informed opinion. if you are making the statements that fox micro-manages games and gives his coaches no freedom to run the scheme their way then you need to come up with proof.

the players area all talking about how very different things are and how much they have to learn. the players are all talking about the differences. are they liars? are they ill-informed and/or naive? are they talking out of their collective butts...or are you? someone is. people who have been there and watched them...people who have actually seen what is going on and have been around to compare it with previous OTAs and practices have given their evidence. burden is on the haters to back up their crap.

I need to come up w/ proof he micro manages? I could easily ask you to provide proof he doesn't?

you are taking talk/hype prior to a season starting as fact. There was a lot of talk from players about how aggressive they were going to be prior to last seaosn on D.......did we see that?

[CRA]

i was one of those guys calling for fox's head after the '07 season. i fully believed that while trgo was a huge problem that fox and even hurney were the biggest ones. going into and during the '08 season my eyes opened up and i think that they had a turn-around. i think the criticisms that i had of them were warranted but they have changed things enough to make it a winning team. the evidence is there to support it.

the evidence is that fox is letting meeks do his things. the evidence shows that he has been taking a hands off approach to meeks and the other coaches. the evidence this offseason is that meeks and the other coaches are doing things differently than in the past. the evidence is that the players all agree that things are changing where there are new coaches. the evidence is that there is a new scheme that they are having to learn. the evidence is there that they are concentrating on fundamentals and technique more-so than before. the evidence is there that the defense is faster and has a new aggressive attitude that wasn't prevalent before. there are witnesses.

what is there to support that none of this is actually happening? what evidence is there to support that nothing is changing or will change? what evidence is there to support the idea that fox is micro managing? what concrete evidence is there to back up the assumption that fox is a puppet master? and don't pull that "it's just widely known that is the case" because that argument is bunk. it's weak sauce. if it is widely known you would be able to back it up with actual quotes from people who actually know what is going on. bring it in with evidence. bring proof. prove you assumptions and your claims. i dare you to start looking for it.

more than that i dare you to challenge your own thinking and look at it a bit more objectively. i have and i did and the evidence i found showed that i was wrong and it is showing that you are wrong. until you can pull something out that shows that you have something to actually back up your claims they are going to be seen as coming from a very closed minded individual who isn't worth carrying on this or much of any conversations with.

what did Fox do to make you change your mind in 08? Fox simply had better talent on the OL and at RB. You see some coaches that will steal you a win(b/c of what is done on the sideline.....Fox is going to hit you w/ the same stuff every season (I do recall opponents almost making fun of us after one game b/c they said it was known across the league exactly what we do on defense when up by the smallest fraction). Some years (like last season) he actually has the talent/players on the roster to make his same old routine work. That imo isn't good coaching.

again, there is no evidence or facts Fox is letting Meeks do what he wants. It is hype/talk at this point and not fact. How many times have we heard talk about how "different" things were going to be prior to the season starting.....yet Fox gives us the same old thing.

Now, with an offense like Fox currently has(great OL and RBs).....his formula will work on offense. Until Fox gets the front 4 he needs to play Fox defense.......he needs to let a DC use the talent to create something that works. That didn't happen last year.

[rayzor]

so what you're saying is that you got nothing and you don't care what is being reported form people who are/were both there and involved.

ok.

[Gman was right]

What evidence have you guys seen that Meeks is totally in control and that the schemes have totally changed? Seriously what? Do you guys sit in the defensive meetings? How do you know things have changed? Its been reported everywhere that John Fox has been running this defense. Go buy the new Atholon magazine and read what they said. They agree that the defense will not change much if at all because Fox will not give Meeks the freedom that you guys think he has.Why do you think Mike Trgovac quit? Its because he was tired of having his toes stepped all over. The offense did not change one bit from Dan henning to Jeff Davidson. The PERSONEL did which is why we were more successful this year. How much success did Jeff Davidson have his first year playing with the same players Henning was stuck with? Dan Henning was playing Fox ball with Deshaun Foster, Keary Colbert, Drew Carter and a small offensive line. If he had the same talent we have now he would still be calling plays for the panthers. The fact is, Ron Meeks will not have full control over this defense. He will run the same exact conservative schemes that Fox tells him to run. Of coarse the players are going to hype up the new guy. Thats what they are supposed to do. They hyped up the new simplified scheme last year too. They hyped up Jeff Davidson the year before even though the scheme never changed! If that is your proof that things will be different then you better not get your hopes up.

Oh yeah....Rah Rah Rah!

[pstall]

what did Fox do to make you change your mind in 08? Fox simply had better talent on the OL and at RB. You see some coaches that will steal you a win(b/c of what is done on the sideline.....Fox is going to hit you w/ the same stuff every season (I do recall opponents almost making fun of us after one game b/c they said it was known across the league exactly what we do on defense when up by the smallest fraction). Some years (like last season) he actually has the talent/players on the roster to make his same old routine work. That imo isn't good coaching.

again, there is no evidence or facts Fox is letting Meeks do what he wants. It is hype/talk at this point and not fact. How many times have we heard talk about how "different" things were going to be prior to the season starting.....yet Fox gives us the same old thing.

Now, with an offense like Fox currently has(great OL and RBs).....his formula will work on offense. Until Fox gets the front 4 he needs to play Fox defense.......he needs to let a DC use the talent to create something that works. That didn't happen last year.

Larry Fitz after the playoff game. More or less said they KNEW Fox was NOT going to adjust.

[pstall]

What evidence have you guys seen that Meeks is totally in control and that the schemes have totally changed? Seriously what? Do you guys sit in the defensive meetings? How do you know things have changed? Its been reported everywhere that John Fox has been running this defense. Go buy the new Atholon magazine and read what they said. They agree that the defense will not change much if at all because Fox will not give Meeks the freedom that you guys think he has.Why do you think Mike Trgovac quit? Its because he was tired of having his toes stepped all over. The offense did not change one bit from Dan henning to Jeff Davidson. The PERSONEL did which is why we were more successful this year. How much success did Jeff Davidson have his first year playing with the same players Henning was stuck with? Dan Henning was playing Fox ball with Deshaun Foster, Keary Colbert, Drew Carter and a small offensive line. If he had the same talent we have now he would still be calling plays for the panthers. The fact is, Ron Meeks will not have full control over this defense. He will run the same exact conservative schemes that Fox tells him to run. Of coarse the players are going to hype up the new guy. Thats what they are supposed to do. They hyped up the new simplified scheme last year too. They hyped up Jeff Davidson the year before even though the scheme never changed! If that is your proof that things will be different then you better not get your hopes up.

Oh yeah....Rah Rah Rah!

will prove is FUTURE tense..we are HOPING...

[rayzor]

Its been reported everywhere that John Fox has been running this defense.

you gave one example. you should have no problem bringing more to the table if it is and has been reported everywhere.

[Gman was right]

you gave one example. you should have no problem bringing more to the table if it is and has been reported everywhere.

I posted links before from Pat yasinskas where he commented on this as well as one from Scott Fowler. I also told you to read Atholon magazine and read what they say. It is a FACT that John Fox had his hands all over the defense and Trgovac just managed it. Why some of you are in complete denial over this is beyond me. Your only proof that things have "changed" is the players hyping up something that they hype up every single year.

[rayzor]

so it's not being reported everywhere?

[Gman was right]

Yep! Pretty much! Its been reported everywhere. Those are just some examples that I gave you. I'd give you more links but I wont waste my time since you guys always have an excuse. I still cant get over the "Pat Yasinskas just said that because he's mad the panthers traded his favorite player" excuse. You guys want to beleive the hype so badly that you just wont accept the facts.