Jim Miller and Pat Kirwan on Cam

[panthers55]

We are bickering amongst ourselves instead of the real source of our angst.

 

THE CAROLINA PANTHERS FRANCHISE

There is plenty to pass around.  The issue for many of us is that certain posters refuse to admit that cam is still making mistakes which he should have corrected by now.  No one argues the occasional mistakes or WTF throws.  But lets be honest.  How many deep throws did he attempt last week?  He completed 1.  And there wasn't always pressure on him then. If people would stop making so many excuses all the time others of us wouldn't point out the issues.

[thefuzz]

OK kids here is the deal.

 

Cam has flaws, this was known when we drafted him. He needed a ton of work. He needs playcalling tailored to his strengths. He is not Tom Brady or Manning. He needs to run an offense off of instinct with quick easy reads and he needs to make those decisions quickly. 

 

Earlier P55 said Cam's development or lack thereof is all on him.  This is not accurate, entirely. When you take a player that needs work you have to invest into that AND so does the player. Cam has been working, we would know about it if he hasn't. He visited Whitfield this offseason and his rookie season.   This is money out of Cam's pocket, not the Panthers.  What has the Panthers as an organization done to help Cam? Mike Shula and Ken Dorsey?  At some point you have to say, "Cam needs work, he needs to work himself and the Panthers need to invest work into him." I blame both parties. Yes Cam should be working to be as good as possible and YES the Panthers need to invest as much resources as it takes to help this young man reach the next level.

 

On the subject of adding offensive weapons around him.   

I can't for the life of me see how folks consider our current Offensive team design to be anything but a clusterfug. The O-Line is likely the worst one we have fielded in 10 years. The WR corps lacks play makers. We have Smith who is more #2 than #1 not. Yes it's true. and a bunch of #3 level WR's.  Hixon is continually hurt, Lafell is off to a very slow start, Ginn is a speedster who has promise but hasn't reached it, Armanti is afraid of contact.  Then we have 1/4th of our team cap space invested in Running backs. A 30 yr old DWill who has performed decently, a Stewart on the PUP, Tolbert who is banged up, and Barner who hasn't played.

 

So not only does Cam have his issues and need to continue to get better, the Panthers on the offensive side of the ball equate to being a complete and total trainwreck. 

 

Compare all this to what Indy has done for Luck. 1 very good vet in Reggie Wayne (SSmith) 1 promising 2nd year guy in TY Hilton (????) 2 young TE (olsen and ???) and now a young playmaker RB on a friendly rookie contract (Uhh DWILL/Stew for the net worth of an oil sheik) The Colts decided to dedicate their mission to making a young explosive offense around their franchise QB. They did so with dcent picks, trades and keeping relevant players.

The Panthers have done little of the sort and what attempts they have made have either been absolute failures or fuging stupid ideas to begin with (Tolbert is as a Sproles).

 

So yes Cam needs work, he needs to make his reads better, he needs to have solid mechanics, and he needs to show these improvements along with being the Leader he can be and HAS been in his career. That said, the PANTHERS need to get off their asses and support this young man. Spend some money on the best QB coach guy they can find. Bring in Offensive weapondry to make Cam's life easier, people to make plays for him instead of him having to make all the plays. Build a powerful offensive line with FAgency and smart draft picks. and on and on.

 

His numbers tell me, that when the Kid is rolling and the offense is called to his strengths Cam can make most any throw on the table and make an offense light up the scoreboard.  My eyes tell me the Panthers staff and FO have lost their fuging minds if they think the poo they run 80% of the time in Buffalo is some level of NFL offense.   

 

So stop bickering about who's to blame and realize they are ALL TO BLAME and until the entire Panthers Organization steps up, they will continue to be losers.

 

This is my call completely.  Cam needs work, lots of it, but he is an early version of Elway.  Raw, talented, charismatic, goofy, etc....but most of all talented.  He is not going to carve up a D, he just doesn't have the experience for that, and he seems like a easy going type of player (Favre)...not one who spends every moment in the playbook  (Manning 1).

 

Footwork was not pretty coming out of college, and it's not that much better, possibly worse, now.

 

That said, I place more of the blame on the ORG.

 

Hurney was a terrible GM and we will be feeling his stupidity for another two years, at least.  He wanted a power run game and a suffocating D.  But didn't really care much for shoring up the O Line and the middle of the D Line.  Not they way you build a team, IMO.

 

We drafted RB after RB, and LB after LB.  We over paid positions that todays NFL is under valuing.

 

The Panthers don't have any decent red zone threats, and we wonder why we can't score TD's when we have a player in Cam whose strengths are not reading defenses, nor firing quick strikes.

 

Our biggest red zone threat, our QB, and his legs, not his arm.  After that, probably Tolbert.  What does that tell you?

 

This org is fuged up, hopefully DG will give us some guidance.  

 

First up, get rid of RR, shed ourselves from the awful RB contracts, move on from both Beason and Gross, and as bad as I hate to say it, SS is probably on his way out as well.

 

JR needs his ass kicked.

[Kurb]

There is plenty to pass around.  The issue for many of us is that certain posters refuse to admit that cam is still making mistakes which he should have corrected by now.  No one argues the occasional mistakes or WTF throws.  But lets be honest.  How many deep throws did he attempt last week?  He completed 1.  And there wasn't always pressure on him then. If people would stop making so many excuses all the time others of us wouldn't point out the issues.

 

Facts aren't excuses.

Cam got his ass whipped by the Buffalo pass rush.

Cam missed throws even when he had time.

These two things both are and aren't mutually exclusive.

[panthers55]

OK kids here is the deal.

 

Cam has flaws, this was known when we drafted him. He needed a ton of work. He needs playcalling tailored to his strengths. He is not Tom Brady or Manning. He needs to run an offense off of instinct with quick easy reads and he needs to make those decisions quickly. 

 

Earlier P55 said Cam's development or lack thereof is all on him.  This is not accurate, entirely. When you take a player that needs work you have to invest into that AND so does the player. Cam has been working, we would know about it if he hasn't. He visited Whitfield this offseason and his rookie season.   This is money out of Cam's pocket, not the Panthers.  What has the Panthers as an organization done to help Cam? Mike Shula and Ken Dorsey?  At some point you have to say, "Cam needs work, he needs to work himself and the Panthers need to invest work into him." I blame both parties. Yes Cam should be working to be as good as possible and YES the Panthers need to invest as much resources as it takes to help this young man reach the next level.

 

On the subject of adding offensive weapons around him.   

I can't for the life of me see how folks consider our current Offensive team design to be anything but a clusterfug. The O-Line is likely the worst one we have fielded in 10 years. The WR corps lacks play makers. We have Smith who is more #2 than #1 not. Yes it's true. and a bunch of #3 level WR's.  Hixon is continually hurt, Lafell is off to a very slow start, Ginn is a speedster who has promise but hasn't reached it, Armanti is afraid of contact.  Then we have 1/4th of our team cap space invested in Running backs. A 30 yr old DWill who has performed decently, a Stewart on the PUP, Tolbert who is banged up, and Barner who hasn't played.

 

So not only does Cam have his issues and need to continue to get better, the Panthers on the offensive side of the ball equate to being a complete and total trainwreck. 

 

Compare all this to what Indy has done for Luck. 1 very good vet in Reggie Wayne (SSmith) 1 promising 2nd year guy in TY Hilton (????) 2 young TE (olsen and ???) and now a young playmaker RB on a friendly rookie contract (Uhh DWILL/Stew for the net worth of an oil sheik) The Colts decided to dedicate their mission to making a young explosive offense around their franchise QB. They did so with dcent picks, trades and keeping relevant players.

The Panthers have done little of the sort and what attempts they have made have either been absolute failures or fuging stupid ideas to begin with (Tolbert is as a Sproles).

 

So yes Cam needs work, he needs to make his reads better, he needs to have solid mechanics, and he needs to show these improvements along with being the Leader he can be and HAS been in his career. That said, the PANTHERS need to get off their asses and support this young man. Spend some money on the best QB coach guy they can find. Bring in Offensive weapondry to make Cam's life easier, people to make plays for him instead of him having to make all the plays. Build a powerful offensive line with FAgency and smart draft picks. and on and on.

 

His numbers tell me, that when the Kid is rolling and the offense is called to his strengths Cam can make most any throw on the table and make an offense light up the scoreboard.  My eyes tell me the Panthers staff and FO have lost their fuging minds if they think the poo they run 80% of the time in Buffalo is some level of NFL offense.   

 

So stop bickering about who's to blame and realize they are ALL TO BLAME and until the entire Panthers Organization steps up, they will continue to be losers.

You proved my point.  I said that many guys have tired to fix Cam's mechanics and you mentioned several.  Still he struggles to set his feet properly.  Seriously??? he still overthrows guys by 10 yards when they are 10 yards away.  Not once but mutiple times.  Seriously??

 

As you noted our wide receivers comparison to the Colts actually is pretty close  although you spun it the other way.  Smith is every bit as good as Wayne and Lafell has been as good as Hilton.  Olsen is better than any tight end that Luck has and yes we really don't have a great complement yet.  But Williams and Tolbert are better than what Indy has so it is a wash compared to the total.  Sure Bell sucks but we have 2 past probowl linemen, Armini has been solid and by every stat so far Scott has been solid. So the whole issue is that since Bell sucks the whole line sucks. Right?  Why hasn't Shula figured out he needs help??? The line problem is just as much we can't keep the same guys out there so we never develop any consistency as much as they all suck. 

 

Truth is that Gettleman has done a ton of good given the cap hell we were in.  He has effectively taken us from 15 million to 15 million under the cap or a swing of 30 million.  All while still giving Cam weapons and shoring up what he can.  No one is putting all of this on Cam but lets be honest here.  He is not a franchise quarterback yet.  We hope he can be but right now he isn't.   Sure you can play to what he already does or you can try and make him a complete guy which means making him a pocket passer as well as a runner.  When you don't try to make him do more than he already does he stays comfortable with who he is not who he can be.  Sure we should be doing more hurry up and giving him plays which he can perform well but we need to keep making him stretch and grow so he is the complete package and our franchise quarterback for the next decade. Instead of a bigger and stronger version of Vick who never learned to pass the ball until he went to Philly. Even now he is a guy who runs who can throw some.  Is that what we want for Cam??

[panthers55]

Facts aren't excuses.

Cam got his ass whipped by the Buffalo pass rush.

Cam missed throws even when he had time.

These two things both are and aren't mutually exclusive.

And I see both sides I really do.  I am fine with admitting that the O line is a problem but I don't think they are total crap.  Bell yes but not the rest.  I see that we tried to throw too deep often when our line wasn't holding up.  We should have gone shorter to help the offense. Did Cam go overboard given the criticism last week that he didn't go long at all or did Shula tell him to throw deep regardless. We should have done more hurry up which appears to be Cam's strength.

I agree that we need wide receivers to step up.  On the other hand Cam needs to see other guys instead of just focusing on Smith and Olsen.

 

We need to let Cam audible and call plays at the line.  But Cam needs to be able to read defenses so he can call the right play.

 

As you note there are plenty of things to work on.  I am fine to see all of them.  As least you aren't telling me all Cam needs to do is relax.

[Kurb]

There is a ton here I want to address. So I am going to break it apart point by point. I understand what you are saying, but either out understanding of the problems or vastly different or we are watching two different football teams.

You proved my point.  I said that many guys have tired to fix Cam's mechanics and you mentioned several.  Still he struggles to set his feet properly.  Seriously??? he still overthrows guys by 10 yards when they are 10 yards away.  Not once but mutiple times.  Seriously??

 

 

I supported some of what you were saying, at least some of what I read. How soon we forget how RAW Cam is/was coming out of college.  Cam is much more Farve than Manning and that has to be considered when calling plays and building around him. If you know his intermediate game struggles why call a ton of that? If you have given up on Cam as a QB then that is fine, that's your prerogative, I won't. He has flashed to brightly in these first 2 years for me to say he doesn't still have a ton of untapped potential.  My dread scenario is he gets shipped off much like Drew Brees did and we watch him under say Chip Kelly become an offensive dynamo.

 

 

As you noted our wide receivers comparison to the Colts actually is pretty close  although you spun it the other way.  Smith is every bit as good as Wayne and Lafell has been as good as Hilton.  Olsen is better than any tight end that Luck has and yes we really don't have a great complement yet.  But Williams and Tolbert are better than what Indy has so it is a wash compared to the total.  Sure Bell sucks but we have 2 past probowl linemen, Armini has been solid and by every stat so far Scott has been solid. So the whole issue is that since Bell sucks the whole line sucks. Right?  Why hasn't Shula figured out he needs help??? The line problem is just as much we can't keep the same guys out there so we never develop any consistency as much as they all suck. 

 

 

 

Could of things here.  I'll give you the Wayne=Smith comparisons. Similar age and production.  Then your argument starts to fall apart.

TY Hilton is speed monster, he had 50 for 800+ yards and 8 TD last season.

Lafell is a bigger possession type guy who some would say has iffy hands. in his CAREER he only has 166 for 1600 yards and 8 TD.   We can break that down into who is throwing to who and offensive design if you want, but as far being good at what they do, Hilton is already arguably better at his job (Fly routes, taking off the top) than Lafell is at his (tough catches, big body WR).

 

Fleener and Allen are better than Olsen in the fact they are both young soild TE's and Olsen is one very good TE. 2>1.   

 

You mention the 2 Probowl OLine. Gross is far removed from his best days. He's solid. Kalil is elite no doubt.  and Amini should improve all year.  The right side of the line is hot garbage and everyone with eyes can see it. Scott and Bell have horrible grades from PFF in both run blocking and Pass blocking. 8 pressures 3 sacks and a QB hit between them. They are as solid as fresh made jello.

 

 

Truth is that Gettleman has done a ton of good given the cap hell we were in.  He has effectively taken us from 15 million to 15 million under the cap or a swing of 30 million.  All while still giving Cam weapons and shoring up what he can.  

 

Gettleman and his staff has done an admirable job moving around money, I have high hopes for his plans for the future (I think).

 

His moves however, are the equivalent of putting bandaids on gaping chest wounds. Hixon, Edwards, Lafell, GinnJr aren't really going to strike fear in the hearts of Defenses around the NFL. 

 

 

No one is putting all of this on Cam but lets be honest here.  He is not a franchise quarterback yet.  We hope he can be but right now he isn't.   

 

Actually man of you are putting it all on Cam and for reasons that are poorly thought out. I'm saying you are doing this in particular, but it's a reoccurring theme already.

 

You say he isn't a Franchise QB when all signs of the past two years tell me different. I can count maybe 6 of the 2-14 close game record that I would put most of the blame on Cam. Atlanta 2011, Seattle 2011 come to mind early. That leaves 8 games that rest completely on the Coaching Staff. 

 

 

Sure you can play to what he already does or you can try and make him a complete guy which means making him a pocket passer as well as a runner.  When you don't try to make him do more than he already does he stays comfortable with who he is not who he can be.  Sure we should be doing more hurry up and giving him plays which he can perform well but we need to keep making him stretch and grow so he is the complete package and our franchise quarterback for the next decade. Instead of a bigger and stronger version of Vick who never learned to pass the ball until he went to Philly. Even now he is a guy who runs who can throw some.  Is that what we want for Cam??

 

You play and coach to your players strengths no matter what. Mike McCoy and John Fox (amazingly) took a The Golden Calf of Bristol lead team to the Playoffs. the Niners rode the Read Option to the SuperBowl.  Being a pocket passer doesn't have to fit into some rigid mold and neither does being a quarter back.  Yes we need to push this young man to be a better quarterback. Yes he needs work, but for fugs sake don't keep bashing a square peg into a round hole for the sake of change.   

 

Like I said before, Yes he needs work, work he can do himself.  Know what else needs work? The entire offense from top to bottom. So when we toss around blame lets be even here and include everything.

[CRA]

You proved my point. I said that many guys have tired to fix Cam's mechanics and you mentioned several. Still he struggles to set his feet properly. Seriously??? he still overthrows guys by 10 yards when they are 10 yards away. Not once but mutiple times. Seriously??

As you noted our wide receivers comparison to the Colts actually is pretty close although you spun it the other way. Smith is every bit as good as Wayne and Lafell has been as good as Hilton. Olsen is better than any tight end that Luck has and yes we really don't have a great complement yet. But Williams and Tolbert are better than what Indy has so it is a wash compared to the total. Sure Bell sucks but we have 2 past probowl linemen, Armini has been solid and by every stat so far Scott has been solid. So the whole issue is that since Bell sucks the whole line sucks. Right? Why hasn't Shula figured out he needs help??? The line problem is just as much we can't keep the same guys out there so we never develop any consistency as much as they all suck.

Truth is that Gettleman has done a ton of good given the cap hell we were in. He has effectively taken us from 15 million to 15 million under the cap or a swing of 30 million. All while still giving Cam weapons and shoring up what he can. No one is putting all of this on Cam but lets be honest here. He is not a franchise quarterback yet. We hope he can be but right now he isn't. Sure you can play to what he already does or you can try and make him a complete guy which means making him a pocket passer as well as a runner. When you don't try to make him do more than he already does he stays comfortable with who he is not who he can be. Sure we should be doing more hurry up and giving him plays which he can perform well but we need to keep making him stretch and grow so he is the complete package and our franchise quarterback for the next decade. Instead of a bigger and stronger version of Vick who never learned to pass the ball until he went to Philly. Even now he is a guy who runs who can throw some. Is that what we want for Cam??

Eli Manning still has mechanical issues often....

It happens. Cam needs work. Most QBs still have flaws to their game....the good ones.

Biggest issue in Carolina is too many want to talk about Cam's issues. Lack of focus on all the other issues keeping is from winning while he works on his IMO

[panthers55]

There is a ton here I want to address. So I am going to break it apart point by point. I understand what you are saying, but either out understanding of the problems or vastly different or we are watching two different football teams.

 

 

I supported some of what you were saying, at least some of what I read. How soon we forget how RAW Cam is/was coming out of college.  Cam is much more Farve than Manning and that has to be considered when calling plays and building around him. If you know his intermediate game struggles why call a ton of that? If you have given up on Cam as a QB then that is fine, that's your prerogative, I won't. He has flashed to brightly in these first 2 years for me to say he doesn't still have a ton of untapped potential.  My dread scenario is he gets shipped off much like Drew Brees did and we watch him under say Chip Kelly become an offensive dynamo.

 

 

Who said I have given up on him.  I wear his jersey to games.  I have repeatedly said I hope he become the franchise quarterback he needs to be.  Don't know why you would say that really???

 

Could of things here.  I'll give you the Wayne=Smith comparisons. Similar age and production.  Then your argument starts to fall apart.

TY Hilton is speed monster, he had 50 for 800+ yards and 8 TD last season.

Lafell is a bigger possession type guy who some would say has iffy hands. in his CAREER he only has 166 for 1600 yards and 8 TD.   We can break that down into who is throwing to who and offensive design if you want, but as far being good at what they do, Hilton is already arguably better at his job (Fly routes, taking off the top) than Lafell is at his (tough catches, big body WR).

 

LaFell is as you say a bigger body guy who isn't that quick but has been effective last year when given chances.  Hilton is quicker but some of his production is countered by the fact that Cam likes the tight ends better so LaFell doesn;t get as many chances.  And this year he will have to split catches with Ginn who is that quick speed guy who can take the top off.  I think Lafell and Ginn will get more yards than Hilton this year. So the end result is the same.  

 

Fleener and Allen are better than Olsen in the fact they are both young soild TE's and Olsen is one very good TE. 2>1.   

 

I conceded that point.

 

You mention the 2 Probowl OLine. Gross is far removed from his best days. He's solid. Kalil is elite no doubt.  and Amini should improve all year.  The right side of the line is hot garbage and everyone with eyes can see it. Scott and Bell have horrible grades from PFF in both run blocking and Pass blocking. 8 pressures 3 sacks and a QB hit between them. They are as solid as fresh made jello.

 

Go back and look at Scott.  Unless his grades were awful in pass blocking last week, he graded out very high against Seattle in week 1.  Bell, I got nothing.............

 

You didn't mention the running game where I think we are better.  Lets see what Richardson does to the mix which could put the Colts on top. 

 

Gettleman and his staff has done an admirable job moving around money, I have high hopes for his plans for the future (I think).

 

His moves however, are the equivalent of putting bandaids on gaping chest wounds. Hixon, Edwards, Lafell, GinnJr aren't really going to strike fear in the hearts of Defenses around the NFL. 

 

When you are in critical condition, and you can turn things around in a few months, that is more than putting a few bandaids on things.

 

Actually man of you are putting it all on Cam and for reasons that are poorly thought out. I'm saying you are doing this in particular, but it's a reoccurring theme already.

 

And I am saying I am putting blame everywhere, it is just some folks here that constantly try and deflect it.

 

You say he isn't a Franchise QB when all signs of the past two years tell me different. I can count maybe 6 of the 2-14 close game record that I would put most of the blame on Cam. Atlanta 2011, Seattle 2011 come to mind early. That leaves 8 games that rest completely on the Coaching Staff. 

 

Your definition and mine are different concerning what a franchise quarterback is.  A franchise quarterback are guys like Brees, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and the Brady's.  I don't think guys like Wilson or Kaepernick or Cam are there yet. Right now you can't put the weight of the franchise on the quarterback and those guys you can.  Maybe he will be a franchise quarterback in a few years but right now he is a good quarterback who is still learning basics like mechanics, reading defense and being a leader. Franchise guys already do that and have done it in the past.

 

You play and coach to your players strengths no matter what. Mike McCoy and John Fox (amazingly) took a The Golden Calf of Bristol lead team to the Playoffs. the Niners rode the Read Option to the SuperBowl.  Being a pocket passer doesn't have to fit into some rigid mold and neither does being a quarter back.  Yes we need to push this young man to be a better quarterback. Yes he needs work, but for fugs sake don't keep bashing a square peg into a round hole for the sake of change.   

 

Like I said before, Yes he needs work, work he can do himself.  Know what else needs work? The entire offense from top to bottom. So when we toss around blame lets be even here and include everything.

 

I agree there is plenty of blame to go around.

Bolding my responses were easier than all the individual quotes.

[panthers55]

Eli Manning still has mechanical issues often....

It happens. Cam needs work. Most QBs still have flaws to their game....the good ones.

Biggest issue in Carolina is too many want to talk about Cam's issues. Lack of focus on all the other issues keeping is from winning while he works on his IMO

Don;t put cam in the same category as Eli. Cam will get the chance on Sunday to prove he belongs in the same sentence.

[frash.exe]

Yea Cam's not throwing 3-4 interceptions every game how dare you CRA

[AceBoogie]

What part? That he doesn't hold the ball longer than any other quarterback? That was a fact in 2012. Doubt it has changed. That he doesn't throw off his back foot sometimes even when not pressured? Watch him. He uses mostly arm and will often throw without moving his feet or stepping into the throw at all. That he holds the ball until he feels pressured forcing him to throw off his back foot? That seems self evident.

Truth is that he is slow to recognize defenses and has trouble knowing where to throw it until the receiver is wide open.

Actually Russell Wilson was first and Vick was 2nd. Cam was 3rd nice try tho

[CRA]

FYI on Scott according to PFF

Week 1 - worst grade in pass blocking on team (-3.0)

Week 1 - worst overall graded O player (-5.7)

After the game Carolina (Kalil) pumped him up by giving out a coaches grade. It was a specific grade. Only how the coaches grades him in one aspect and on one side.

[panthers55]

Yea Cam's not throwing 3-4 interceptions every game how dare you CRA

So we should look at 2 games and decide what kind of quarterback they are? How ridiculous. 

[CRA]

Don;t put cam in the same category as Eli. Cam will get the chance on Sunday to prove he belongs in the same sentence.

Eli has horrible mechanics often, horrible body language, questionable leadership....

He has wins....and plays well on final drives while his team is often in holes he helps create.

You mentioned mechanics as a big issue....simply pointing out that most QBs have issues. There are bigger issues in Carolina than Cam.....have been every season. Yes, he needs work....that isn't why we can't win though