Jim Miller and Pat Kirwan on Cam

[panthers55]

Your first indication that you really don't understand quarterbacking is with the statement "should have mastered long ago." No one "masters" quarterback play. Hell, watch Peyton Manning, after his many years in the league, throw a brain dead pass right to a defender in last year's Denver playoff loss that basically killed their season. QBs are constantly making poor decisions, misreading coverages, throwing off their back foot, overthrowing and underthrowing receivers, etc. The best simply limit their mistakes to a minimum, and this is a process that takes lots of time and practice. I get immensely frustrated at Cam's poor footwork but I would be really worried if he never had another bad dropback again because that would mean he was paying more attention to his feet than the actual play. It's always going to be a cyclical process, and as long as he continues to steadily improve (and so far he's really seemed to make strides in cutting down on his spates of turnovers) than he'll be fine.

What you are talking about and I am talking about is apple and oranges.  You say a quarterback never masters all the intricacies of the game and is always learning and I would agree.  But look at Peyton and tell me he doesn't move his feet and doesn't get into position to make a good throw.  Cam often doesn't and the reason is that Peyton understands that he isn't that athletic or that strong armed so he needs great mechanics to make all the throws.  Newton has always relied on his athleticism instead of mechanics and still does so. Newton has never had good mechanics and he still doesn't.  I frankly see little improvement in that part of his game.  He improves when he dinks and dunks like he did against Seattle.  When he opens it up like he did against Buffalo his accuracy suffered greatly. Mechanics you always work on like a  professional baseball player who still hits off a tee. But that is more because guys can learn bad habits or develop problems without knowing it.  Still proper mechanics are learned early.  Does that mean you are done and don't have to keep working?  Of course not but the reality is that Cam has never had even good mechanics ever on a consistent basis at any level.

 

Again there is a big difference between a guy who throws off his back foot due to pressure and a guy who throws off his back foot when there is no pressure.  Cam doesn't do it all the time but enough to make some very inaccurate throws to wide open receivers.

 

[Marguide]

So many people, both in the media and on the Huddle talk about Cam's struggles. How he just isn't accurate enough, or not decisive enough. Perhaps these are fair criticisms, but perhaps the best way to evaluate QB's is how they are doing in comparison with their peers.

 

To start off, we already know that Cam has thrown for more yards in his first two years than any predecessor. But that was then, and we should focus on the now.

 

So how does he stack up with other young and other notable QB's in the game today? Let's take a look...

 

QB and Y-T-D Rating

Brady 74.1

Cutler 95.4

Dalton 88.7

Eli 75.9

Freeman 63.0

Gabbert 30.8

Locker 84.8

Luck 96.7

Kaepernick 81.6

Newton 86.4

RG3 89.6

Tannehill 94.2

Wilson 96.8

 

Other than Wilson, Tannehill and Luck, everyone else looks to be about where Cam is, or, in a few cases, much lower.

 

So why is everyone so damn worried about Cam? Why does his game get picked apart on a micro level? Is it because people think he is surrounded by a better team than the others? Do we have a better receiving corps? What is it that makes him a constant target of criticism even by Panther fans? I'd really like to know these answers.

 

Oh, and just for the record, Jim Miller's lifetime rating? 75.2

[panthers55]

Ugh, obligatory "nut hugger" reference.

Let's get a head coach and assistant coaches that haven't been fired everywhere else they've been (Rivera, Shula) or been hired with no coaching experience to be Cam's QB coach (Dorsey) and then we can see where we're at.

Everyone gets fired if they are in the league long enough.  Belicheck, the Tuna, Coughlin, and on and on.

We won't be hiring a big name guy or giving someone total control over football operations.  We did that once with Seifert and won't ever do it again.  The next guy will be a coordinator as well with likely no head coach experience and we will have to be patient while he learns his job which could mean more years of struggling. Harbaugh doing so well is an exception not the rule.

[fieryprophet]

Cosell is a great film buff but I don't know that he knows more about quarterback mechanics that Miller who played QB.

Even then Cosell said this about Cam in the middle of last year.

Here is what Cosell said after watching Cam against Buffalo.

http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2013/09/13/greg-cosell-even-at-his-best-cam-isnt-a-precision-quarterback/

And Cosell is absolutely correct. Which is the whole point on the emphasis on having Cam play more from the pocket. You don't become a more precise quarterback by running around all the time, you do it by making throws downfield.

What you are saying is that Cam hasn't progressed at all from his rookie year or not as far as you would think he should. What I am saying is that your expectations are not realistic even for an elite QB like Peyton, whose mechanics still elude him from time to time, particularly on unscripted throws where he's not working from muscle memory. And you're not recognizing the reality that's Cam has actually made huge strides compared to his rookie season, even if he has occasional lapses into the playground-style of play that both hinders him but also makes him special. It's not that we should try to shoehorn Cam into a Peyton Manning type of passer, but that we don't hold him back from his full potential by letting him run around like Brett Favre and rely on sheer talent to make plays. But 2013 Cam can actually take a seven-step dropback without looking like the flailing gazelle that embodied 2011 Cam, and will look off a safety or give a little pump fake before targeting the other half of the field, and not sidearm passes for no good reason. There's ample progress, he just goes through phases of growth and mild regression, and the Buffalo game over-accentuated it because he was being asked to go deep too often, as if a team can really split deep balls between two separate games to make up for the lack of downfield throws the week before. The indecisiveness I'm seeing from Cam right now seems driven more by the fact that he is trying to avoid mistakes (and therefore leading him open to getting read by defenders like Alonso did) than an inability to read the play. As he loosens up and gets more comfortable with the new scheme I think he'll do very well.

[panthers55]

So many people, both in the media and on the Huddle talk about Cam's struggles. How he just isn't accurate enough, or not decisive enough. Perhaps these are fair criticisms, but perhaps the best way to evaluate QB's is how they are doing in comparison with their peers.

 

To start off, we already know that Cam has thrown for more yards in his first two years than any predecessor. But that was then, and we should focus on the now.

 

So how does he stack up with other young and other notable QB's in the game today? Let's take a look...

 

QB and Y-T-D Rating

Brady 74.1

Cutler 95.4

Dalton 88.7

Eli 75.9

Freeman 63.0

Gabbert 30.8

Locker 84.8

Luck 96.7

Kaepernick 81.6

Newton 86.4

RG3 89.6

Tannehill 94.2

Wilson 96.8

 

Other than Wilson, Tannehill and Luck, everyone else looks to be about where Cam is, or, in a few cases, much lower.

 

So why is everyone so damn worried about Cam? Why does his game get picked apart on a micro level? Is it because people think he is surrounded by a better team than the others? Do we have a better receiving corps? What is it that makes him a constant target of criticism even by Panther fans? I'd really like to know these answers.

 

Oh, and just for the record, Jim Miller's lifetime rating? 75.2

Why is he criticized?  For lots of reasons but he gets criticized about being inaccurate because he is as well as inconsistent, plain and simple.  He can throw a beautiful deep ball on one play and miss a wide open receiver 15 yards down the field by 10 yards.  What people want to see is good decision making and consistency  which is 2 areas he is sorely lacking.  Sure every quarterback makes mistakes and WTF throws sometimes.  Cam just does it way too often to wide open receivers.

 

Does he also get criticized for stupid things like wearing a towel over his head?  Yeah that too.

 

And BTW a quarterback analyst doesn't have to be a great quarterback to know what one should do?  Most coaches were not good players but that doesn't mean they don't know football or can't be a good coach.

[panthers55]

And Cosell is absolutely correct. Which is the whole point on the emphasis on having Cam play more from the pocket. You don't become a more precise quarterback by running around all the time, you do it by making throws downfield.

What you are saying is that Cam hasn't progressed at all from his rookie year or not as far as you would think he should. What I am saying is that your expectations are not realistic even for an elite QB like Peyton, whose mechanics still elude him from time to time, particularly on unscripted throws where he's not working from muscle memory. And you're not recognizing the reality that's Cam has actually made huge strides compared to his rookie season, even if he has occasional lapses into the playground-style of play that both hinders him but also makes him special. It's not that we should try to shoehorn Cam into a Peyton Manning type of passer, but that we don't hold him back from his full potential by letting him run around like Brett Favre and rely on sheer talent to make plays. But 2013 Cam can actually take a seven-step dropback without looking like the flailing gazelle that embodied 2011 Cam, and will look off a safety or give a little pump fake before targeting the other half of the field, and not sidearm passes for no good reason. There's ample progress, he just goes through phases of growth and mild regression, and the Buffalo game over-accentuated it because he was being asked to go deep too often, as if a team can really split deep balls between two separate games to make up for the lack of downfield throws the week before. The indecisiveness I'm seeing from Cam right now seems driven more by the fact that he is trying to avoid mistakes (and therefore leading him open to getting read by defenders like Alonso did) than an inability to read the play. As he loosens up and gets more comfortable with the new scheme I think he'll do very well.

No I didn't say he didn't progress at all.  Do you have to try and paint me as some extremist in order to try and prove a point?  What I said is that some of the things that experts who evaluate quarterbacks have been saying about Cam both before the draft and now almost 3 years later are exactly the same.  His mechanics are still poor and inconsistent.  He still struggles to make basic reads.  He holds the ball too long for whatever reason.

 

You are the one who earlier excused his problems because Peyton Manning is still learning as if that explained everything. I certainly wouldn't compare them on any level.

 

I would agree with you that Cam does go back and forth between having good spells and poor stretches.  I do think he is best in a hurry up offense because he can get in a rhythm and most throws are short quick ones which seems to be his forte right now.

I hope he does continue to improve as you might remember I was a big proponent of drafting him and wear his jersey to home games.  I just don't have a problem with seeing him without rose colored glasses and can like him even with his flaws and issues. I don't have to put him on a pedestal and defend him from every criticism.  I can still criticize him and still want him as my franchise quarterback.  On the other hand if he continues to struggle with basics that could change.

[fieryprophet]

No I didn't say he didn't progress at all. Do you have to try and paint me as some extremist in order to try and prove a point? What I said is that some of the things that experts who evaluate quarterbacks have been saying about Cam both before the draft and now almost 3 years later are exactly the same. His mechanics are still poor and inconsistent. He still struggles to make basic reads. He holds the ball too long for whatever reason.

You are the one who earlier excused his problems because Peyton Manning is still learning as if that explained everything. I certainly wouldn't compare them on any level.

I would agree with you that Cam does go back and forth between having good spells and poor stretches. I do think he is best in a hurry up offense because he can get in a rhythm and most throws are short quick ones which seems to be his forte right now.

I hope he does continue to improve as you might remember I was a big proponent of drafting him and wear his jersey to home games. I just don't have a problem with seeing him without rose colored glasses and can like him even with his flaws and issues. I don't have to put him on a pedestal and defend him from every criticism. I can still criticize him and still want him as my franchise quarterback. On the other hand if he continues to struggle with basics that could change.

What I'm trying to stress to you is that he's not struggling with the "basics." There are no "basics." Is he inconsistent? Yes. But that's the norm for young quarterbacks, and should be expected since that's the part of his game that is being actively worked on right this minute. He's being asked to play in a more polished fashion on a more consistent basis, so there's less of a security blanket in his progressions and fewer designed runs that would mask the flaws in his passing game. But there is improvement, and the struggles that you're seeing are more of a mirage and media yokels talking out of their ass than what the film actually indicates. Again, Cam just needs to relax, settle down, and become more reactive than passive, which I feel very confident he will in short order.

[Marguide]

Why is he criticized?  For lots of reasons but he gets criticized about being inaccurate because he is as well as inconsistent, plain and simple.  He can throw a beautiful deep ball on one play and miss a wide open receiver 15 yards down the field by 10 yards.  What people want to see is good decision making and consistency  which is 2 areas he is sorely lacking.  Sure every quarterback makes mistakes and WTF throws sometimes.  Cam just does it way too often to wide open receivers.

 

Does he also get criticized for stupid things like wearing a towel over his head?  Yeah that too.

 

And BTW a quarterback analyst doesn't have to be a great quarterback to know what one should do?  Most coaches were not good players but that doesn't mean they don't know football or can't be a good coach.

 

And your evidence that he is so much more inconsistent than other good young QB's is what?

 

Seriously, do you watch other NFL games or just the Panthers? Did you watch Kaepernick the other night? How about Dalton? Did you see how Brady did against the Bills? How about Rothlisberger against Cinci?

 

If he is so much more inconsistent than other QB's, why does it somehow never seem to show up in the stats?

[IGSaint]

Why is he criticized?  For lots of reasons but he gets criticized about being inaccurate because he is as well as inconsistent, plain and simple.  He can throw a beautiful deep ball on one play and miss a wide open receiver 15 yards down the field by 10 yards.  What people want to see is good decision making and consistency  which is 2 areas he is sorely lacking.  Sure every quarterback makes mistakes and WTF throws sometimes.  Cam just does it way too often to wide open receivers.

 

Does he also get criticized for stupid things like wearing a towel over his head?  Yeah that too.

 

And BTW a quarterback analyst doesn't have to be a great quarterback to know what one should do?  Most coaches were not good players but that doesn't mean they don't know football or can't be a good coach.

 

You missed the point of his post. He was talking about that in comparison to his peers he is right there with them. Cam is as accurate as any of the rest. Dalton, Ryan, kaepernick, Eli, RG3, Luck all miss wide open receivers too. They all have plays where they sail the ball over the receivers head. You sound like you want perfection from the QB position but that's not reality. You say Cam is lacking consistency well look at last season he was consistent for many games. Get him a better o-line this season and he will become even more consistent.

 

The point is that a lot of your types of criticisms is pointless because there is no perfect qb, it's best to take the growing pains with the QB you have and Cam is the type of QB that you can build around just like the favre's of the world. They may not be accurate all the time but that doesn't mean that you should overanalyze all his inaccuracies either.

[TheRed]

The next guy will be a coordinator as well with likely no head coach experience and we will have to be patient while he learns his job which could mean more years of struggling. Harbaugh doing so well is an exception not the rule.

 

I hope not. That flawed and outdated mindset will keep our franchise drowning in mediocrity for years to come.

[panthers55]

And your evidence that he is so much more inconsistent than other good young QB's is what?

 

Seriously, do you watch other NFL games or just the Panthers? Did you watch Kaepernick the other night? How about Dalton? Did you see how Brady did against the Bills? How about Rothlisberger against Cinci?

 

If he is so much more inconsistent than other QB's, why does it somehow never seem to show up in the stats?

He is inconsistent.  Did I try and compare him to other quarterbacks and say he was better or worse.  That is your premise not mine. I don't really care if he is better that RGIII or Kaepernick or whoever.  I just care that he still struggles to make  basic throws and show good mechanics this far into his career.  Much like I never understood why basketball players can't make free throws after years of practice lining up in the same spot.  You would think it would be automatic.

[fieryprophet]

He is inconsistent. Did I try and compare him to other quarterbacks and say he was better or worse. That is your premise not mine. I don't really care if he is better that RGIII or Kaepernick or whoever. I just care that he still struggles to make basic throws and show good mechanics this far into his career. Much like I never understood why basketball players can't make free throws after years of practice lining up in the same spot. You would think it would be automatic.

Have you actually played sports? They're far from automatic. And Cam's not struggling with basic throws, you're just unrealistic in your assessment.

[panthers55]

You missed the point of his post. He was talking about that in comparison to his peers he is right there with them. Cam is as accurate as any of the rest. Dalton, Ryan, kaepernick, Eli, RG3, Luck all miss wide open receivers too. They all have plays where they sail the ball over the receivers head. You sound like you want perfection from the QB position but that's not reality. You say Cam is lacking consistency well look at last season he was consistent for many games. Get him a better o-line this season and he will become even more consistent.

 

The point is that a lot of your types of criticisms is pointless because there is no perfect qb, it's best to take the growing pains with the QB you have and Cam is the type of QB that you can build around just like the favre's of the world. They may not be accurate all the time but that doesn't mean that you should overanalyze all his inaccuracies either.

I didn't miss the point I simply talked about why he is criticized because I don't care how good or bad those other quarterbacks are except when we play them.  I don't understand posters obsessions with how the media thinks about our players or why they think it is unfair or fair that Newton gets criticized. Just like I don't care what kind of jersey we wear or what color it is. I only care about Newton playing well and being consistent so we can win games nothing else.  So when I see a post complaining about the same old thing, I respond in a different direction taking a different bend.  I know for linear thinkers who need to argue each point and see this board as a competition to win or lose it might be hard to grasp my logic but I think posts should expand on each other not go back and forth in a constant argument or end in personal attacks.  

 

And remember this isn't my analysis but what professionals who watch film and I respect are saying.  I am just passing along their expertise. I claim none of my own.

[Gabeking]

What I'm trying to stress to you is that he's not struggling with the "basics." There are no "basics." Is he inconsistent? Yes. But that's the norm for young quarterbacks, and should be expected since that's the part of his game that is being actively worked on right this minute. He's being asked to play in a more polished fashion on a more consistent basis, so there's less of a security blanket in his progressions and fewer designed runs that would mask the flaws in his passing game. But there is improvement, and the struggles that you're seeing are more of a mirage and media yokels talking out of their ass than what the film actually indicates. Again, Cam just needs to relax, settle down, and become more reactive than passive, which I feel very confident he will in short order.

I think bill polian (yes, THAT guy) put it best today when he said this.