Jim Miller and Pat Kirwan on Cam

[panthers55]

Ah, looks like we're back to not so subtle remarks about his intelligence and work ethic. Great job P55.

I suppose if you were a Newton nut hugger or hater you might interpret it that way.  I didn't think about either of those concepts while discussing my observations.  Intelligence and work ethic don't guarantee success or every quarterback in the NFL would have graduated from the Ivy league or the school of hard knocks. It takes a number of things to be successful as a quarterback and I wouldn't think IQ is at the top of the list.  How else would you account for guys like Terry Bradshaw being successful?

[fieryprophet]

What part? That he doesn't hold the ball longer than any other quarterback? That was a fact in 2012. Doubt it has changed. That he doesn't throw off his back foot sometimes even when not pressured? Watch him. He uses mostly arm and will often throw without moving his feet or stepping into the throw at all. That he holds the ball until he feels pressured forcing him to throw off his back foot? That seems self evident.

Truth is that he is slow to recognize defenses and has trouble knowing where to throw it until the receiver is wide open.

Every claim you have made is incongruent with the most basic of film study. Does he have struggles of some sort from play to play? Yes. But it's not always and a lot of times it's a miracle he can even make the plays he does make.

[panthers55]

if you watch the tape on newton you will see many times, he makes throws with anticipation, not when they are "wide open".  you cant do what he does and be "slow to recognize defenses and have to hit only wide open receivers". 

 

according to you he sucks. you make him sound like The Golden Calf of Bristol. 

Again why so defensive.  Sure he sometimes anticipates receivers but the knock on him since the combine is that he has always struggled to anticipate where receivers would be and waited to throw to them once they get open.

 

Besides this is not my analysis but guys like Miller and Kirwin who watch film and analyze players all the time.  In fact Kirwin has written a book called take your eye off the ball.  A very good ball many here could benefit from immensely.

[panthers55]

Every claim you have made is incongruent with the most basic of film study. Does he have struggles of some sort from play to play? Yes. But it's not always and a lot of times it's a miracle he can even make the plays he does make.

Again this is not my analysis but professionals who watch film for a living. Listen to them not me.  Sorry if I believe them over you.

[fieryprophet]

Again why so defensive. Sure he sometimes anticipates receivers but the knock on him since the combine is that he has always struggled to anticipate where receivers would be and waited to throw to them once they get open.

Besides this is not my analysis but guys like Miller and Kirwin who watch film and analyze players all the time. In fact Kirwin has written a book called take your eye off the ball. A very good ball many here could benefit from immensely.

I own the book, and have talked with Kirwan on several occasions. He was worried about Cam's play not because he doesn't feel Cam couldn't do these things but because he's worried the offensive struggles are affecting other areas of Cam's game because he's focusing too much on his decision-making at the expense of reaction.

[fieryprophet]

Again this is not my analysis but professionals who watch film for a living. Listen to them not me. Sorry if I believe them over you.

They don't actually watch all that much film (too many games.) Greg Cosell is the film buff.

[CardiacCats]

because no o line and we're trying to turn him into a player he isn't

[panthers55]

I own the book, and have talked with Kirwan on several occasions. He was worried about Cam's play not because he doesn't feel Cam couldn't do these things but because he's worried the offensive struggles are affecting other areas of Cam's game because he's focusing too much on his decision-making at the expense of reaction.

Kirwin is not the expert on quarterbacks, he focuses on what he knows which is being a GM, the cap, play calls, Xs and Os and overall dynamics of the team but I am sure you know that if you talked to him.  When Tim Ryan was there he deferred to him on line issues and specifics on player technique which was Ryan's specialty.  He defers to Miller on quarterback specifics such as we are talking about.  It doesn't mean Pat doesn't understand those things simply that he tries and stays within his areas of expertise.

 

I have never said he couldn't have good mechanics or was unable to read defenses simply that he still struggles with basics which he should have mastered long ago.  As to why he hasn't, I haven't a clue. 

[TheRed]

I suppose if you were a Newton nut hugger or hater you might interpret it that way. I didn't think about either of those concepts while discussing my observations. Intelligence and work ethic don't guarantee success or every quarterback in the NFL would have graduated from the Ivy league or the school of hard knocks. It takes a number of things to be successful as a quarterback and I wouldn't think IQ is at the top of the list. How else would you account for guys like Terry Bradshaw being successful?

Ugh, obligatory "nut hugger" reference.

Let's get a head coach and assistant coaches that haven't been fired everywhere else they've been (Rivera, Shula) or been hired with no coaching experience to be Cam's QB coach (Dorsey) and then we can see where we're at.

[janderson20vt]

in this thread: Cam apologists.

[fieryprophet]

Kirwin is not the expert on quarterbacks, he focuses on what he knows which is being a GM, the cap, play calls, Xs and Os and overall dynamics of the team but I am sure you know that if you talked to him. When Tim Ryan was there he deferred to him on line issues and specifics on player technique which was Ryan's specialty. He defers to Miller on quarterback specifics such as we are talking about. It doesn't mean Pat doesn't understand those things simply that he tries and stays within his areas of expertise.

I have never said he couldn't have good mechanics or was unable to read defenses simply that he still struggles with basics which he should have mastered long ago. As to why he hasn't, I haven't a clue.

Your first indication that you really don't understand quarterbacking is with the statement "should have mastered long ago." No one "masters" quarterback play. Hell, watch Peyton Manning, after his many years in the league, throw a brain dead pass right to a defender in last year's Denver playoff loss that basically killed their season. QBs are constantly making poor decisions, misreading coverages, throwing off their back foot, overthrowing and underthrowing receivers, etc. The best simply limit their mistakes to a minimum, and this is a process that takes lots of time and practice. I get immensely frustrated at Cam's poor footwork but I would be really worried if he never had another bad dropback again because that would mean he was paying more attention to his feet than the actual play. It's always going to be a cyclical process, and as long as he continues to steadily improve (and so far he's really seemed to make strides in cutting down on his spates of turnovers) than he'll be fine.

[fieryprophet]

in this thread: Cam apologists.

More like "realists" but whatevs.

[panthers55]

They don't actually watch all that much film (too many games.) Greg Cosell is the film buff.

Cosell is a great film buff but I don't know that he knows more about quarterback mechanics that Miller who played QB.

Even then Cosell said this about Cam in the middle of last year. 

 

Here is what Cosell said after watching Cam against Buffalo.

 

http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2013/09/13/greg-cosell-even-at-his-best-cam-isnt-a-precision-quarterback/

[SIGCHI222]

This sumbiitch?

 

What does he know 'bout football?