I will never forgive Ron Rivera for two things.

[FootballMaestro]

Coaches call plays...players either execute it or not...it is not cam vs Rivera its execution vs coach decisons.

Naka, Cam fumbling with a stretch or having a pass skip to a wide ope TE is unfortunately Cam's lack of closing in those situations.

Sorry to be honest but hey blame the hispanic guy! If it makes you feel better.

 

I'm not sure how it's "Cam's lack of closing", when the ball was knocked out of his hand, when there was a pile up in front of him, impeding his initial forward progress. Maybe we just see the game differently? Shrugs. 

 

In a nutshell: Cam fumbling the way he did, is/was not an extraordinary football experience. It happens. 

 

However, the Panthers losing the game [the way] they did, after pinning Atlanta near their goal line, and losing in such incredible fashion was, in my opinion--extraordinary.

 

That's the difference. Cam's fumble, was a "boom boom" play, and it was over. The defense lack of positioning in Atlanta, during repeated plays after (as in Chicago, and many games), shows lack of coaching/adjustment, as in so many of the Panthers games during the past two seasons. 

[capfolly]

I can see Ron Rivera being the panthers version of Mike Singletery where the talent is on the roster but the coaching staff can't get the most out of it.

[xclr82xtc]

He is a good guy. the players play for him.. thats just as important as having 500 wins under your belt. he will learn and grown just like our team has.  Plus he has gettleman to give him guidance now. Stop trashing our team. we are what we are.

[panthers55]

I'm not sure how it's "Cam's lack of closing", when the ball was knocked out of his hand, when there was a pile up in front of him, impeding his initial forward progress. Maybe we just see the game differently? Shrugs. 

 

In a nutshell: Cam fumbling the way he did, is/was not an extraordinary football experience. It happens. 

 

However, the Panthers losing the game [the way] they did, after pinning Atlanta near their goal line, and losing in such incredible fashion was, in my opinion--extraordinary.

 

That's the difference. Cam's fumble, was a "boom boom" play, and it was over. The defense lack of positioning in Atlanta, during repeated plays after (as in Chicago, and many games), shows lack of coaching/adjustment, as in so many of the Panthers games during the past two seasons. 

Newton had the first down and tried to get more which was a mistake.  Plain and simple.  Get over it, it happened.If you wouldn't try to defend him when he made a mistake I wouldn't keep bringing it up.

 

The defense was positioned properly but Nakamura  misplayed the ball and the corner thought he had help deep and he didn't.  It wasn't Rivera's fault at all.  As for Chicago, again it was Norman playing soft not Rivera telling him to.  The fact he was replaced soon after tells anyone with any football sense who was at fault there.

And honestly I don't see all these games where we didn't adjust.  We were in every game but 2 last year. And with all the injuries and changes to the lineup every week, the staff had to make a huge number of adjustments before during and between games.

[nosuchthingasapanther]

rivera is just another piece of the "overall average yet occasionally good but never great" carolina panthers.

 

i can't hate (or refuse to forgive) someone for something i've been seeing long before his arrival.

[Cyberjag]

Fox's game management was suspect too, especially early in his career.  The windfall of talent he inherited overshadowed it.

 

All that talent from a 1-15 team?  Rivera actually inherited more pro-bowlers.  If you're arguing for Rivera over Fox, you should try and avoid comparing their first two years and maybe focus on how much info they give out in pressers. :)

 

Newton had the first down and tried to get more which was a mistake.  Plain and simple.  Get over it, it happened.If you wouldn't try to defend him when he made a mistake I wouldn't keep bringing it up.

 

The defense was positioned properly but Nakamura  misplayed the ball and the corner thought he had help deep and he didn't.  It wasn't Rivera's fault at all.  As for Chicago, again it was Norman playing soft not Rivera telling him to.  The fact he was replaced soon after tells anyone with any football sense who was at fault there.

And honestly I don't see all these games where we didn't adjust.  We were in every game but 2 last year. And with all the injuries and changes to the lineup every week, the staff had to make a huge number of adjustments before during and between games.

 

Somehow, successful coaches overcome bone-headed plays.  Yes, we were in every game but two.  And lost most of them.  Compare that to other coaches who are successful--somehow they win more of the close ones than they lose.  It's easy to blame individual players for lack of execution, but at the end of the day, good coaches win.  Since he's been here, we've had 14 one-score games and lost 13 of them.  Contrast that to Mike Smith, who had 12 one score games in his first two years and won 8 of them.  Or Sean Payton, who had 12 and won 7.  Or even John Fox, who had 21 and won 14 of them.

 

Good coaches win.  Others make excuses.

 

I really, really hope Rivera's light bulb goes on this season.  I think on that we both can see eye to eye.  But I don't share your reasons for optimism, my own just comes because I'm a Panther homer.

[FootballMaestro]

Newton had the first down and tried to get more which was a mistake.  Plain and simple.  Get over it, it happened.If you wouldn't try to defend him when he made a mistake I wouldn't keep bringing it up.

 

The defense was positioned properly but Nakamura  misplayed the ball and the corner thought he had help deep and he didn't.  It wasn't Rivera's fault at all.  As for Chicago, again it was Norman playing soft not Rivera telling him to.  The fact he was replaced soon after tells anyone with any football sense who was at fault there.

And honestly I don't see all these games where we didn't adjust.  We were in every game but 2 last year. And with all the injuries and changes to the lineup every week, the staff had to make a huge number of adjustments before during and between games.

 

I'm not defending Newton, at all. I just said it wasn't an extraordinary play. It was a recovered fumble (not even a lost one); nothing else [one play]. 

 

You keep bringing up Nakamura (of course you would). However, the Panthers defense, allowed several passes/key plays before that. They even allowed Roddy White (I think) to get out of bounds, to keep the drive alive. That's was a big no no, and poor defensive positioning. So just please give it up, and/or leave it alone. 

 

Either way; I'm done with this discussion. 

[panthers55]

All that talent from a 1-15 team?  Rivera actually inherited more pro-bowlers.  If you're arguing for Rivera over Fox, you should try and avoid comparing their first two years and maybe focus on how much info they give out in pressers. :)

 

 

Somehow, successful coaches overcome bone-headed plays.  Yes, we were in every game but two.  And lost most of them.  Compare that to other coaches who are successful--somehow they win more of the close ones than they lose.  It's easy to blame individual players for lack of execution, but at the end of the day, good coaches win.  Since he's been here, we've had 14 one-score games and lost 13 of them.  Contrast that to Mike Smith, who had 12 one score games in his first two years and won 8 of them.  Or Sean Payton, who had 12 and won 7.  Or even John Fox, who had 21 and won 14 of them.

 

Good coaches win.  Others make excuses.

 

I really, really hope Rivera's light bulb goes on this season.  I think on that we both can see eye to eye.  But I don't share your reasons for optimism, my own just comes because I'm a Panther homer.

I think the difference between us is that you expect the coaches to win, I expect the players to win.  Sure coaches influence winning and can demand execution but I can't say that Rivera hasn't put the players in position to win.  Do you think that Smith caused Atlanta to win 8 of 12 or Matt Ryan did.  I didn't see Smith have anything to do with White catching that pass. And what about injuries?  Has Atlanta had as many to key players as we have had?  He has made mistakes but honestly I don't think our losing has really been on him as much as a number of factors of which he is just one.

 

I am optimistic because I am every July.  Can't say I always feel that way in December. 

[panthers55]

I'm not defending Newton, at all. I just said it wasn't an extraordinary play. It was a recovered fumble (not even a lost one); nothing else [one play]. 

 

You keep bringing up Nakamura (of course you would). However, the Panthers defense, allowed several passes/key plays before that. They even allowed Roddy White (I think) to get out of bounds, to keep the drive alive. That's was a big no no, and poor defensive positioning. So just please give it up, and/or leave it alone. 

 

Either way; I'm done with this discussion. 

Again if the secondary sucked, is it Rivera's fault?  Ultimately yes, but Wilkes is the secondary coach and McDermott is the defensive coordinator.  Why do they get a pass while everyone focused solely on Rivera.

[Cyberjag]

I think the difference between us is that you expect the coaches to win, I expect the players to win.  Sure coaches influence winning and can demand execution but I can't say that Rivera hasn't put the players in position to win.  Do you think that Smith caused Atlanta to win 8 of 12 or Matt Ryan did.  I didn't see Smith have anything to do with White catching that pass. And what about injuries?  Has Atlanta had as many to key players as we have had?  He has made mistakes but honestly I don't think our losing has really been on him as much as a number of factors of which he is just one.

 

I am optimistic because I am every July.  Can't say I always feel that way in December. 

 

You raise an interesting point, which probably deserves it's own thread.  But let me just ask you this.

 

Do you think that if we had Payton, Harbaugh, Smith, McCarthy, Tomlin, Coughlin, etc... as the coach instead of Rivera that we would have had the same results over the past two years?

 

[FootballMaestro]

You raise an interesting point, which probably deserves it's own thread.  But let me just ask you this.

 

Do you think that if we had Payton, Harbaugh, Smith, McCarthy, Tomlin, Coughlin, etc... as the coach instead of Rivera that we would have had the same results over the past two years?

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. 

 

BINGO/TILT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :sword:   :lolu:  :sword:

 

That's all folks. 

[panthers55]

You raise an interesting point, which probably deserves it's own thread.  But let me just ask you this.

 

Do you think that if we had Payton, Harbaugh, Smith, McCarthy, Tomlin, Coughlin, etc... as the coach instead of Rivera that we would have had the same results over the past two years?

 

Hard to say really. Some of those guys had veteran quarterbacks instead of a rookie who was thrown in the fire with no offseason his first year. Others had head coaching experience at the college level while still others were like Rivera who were coordinators thrown into the mix with little experience.

 

 How many of those guys inherited a 2-14 team that was literally gutted by the owner the year before they came on? If seems that only this year do we really have the talent to compete across the board. It has been a while since we actually had a talented team on offense and defense at the same time, even on paper.  I would have to go back to 2008.  

[Cyberjag]

I don't find it hard to say at all.  Those guys would have won more, because they're better. :)

[panthers55]

You could ask if Rivera had a veteran quarterback like Favre, Brees, Manning etc would we have won more?  Plus how many of those coaches were available and was Richardson going to pay big bucks for a proven entity?

 

 If this is a discussion about first time head coaches doing better than Rivera, there are plenty.  I don't see how that translates to Rivera sucking or that he was a bad choice.  The big  names either wanted  total control or too much money so we went for a coordinator with no head coach experience and expected him to be great  right  away.  I think the expectations are way overblown.