Is this not the hardest track out? (Only Rap fans comment)

[chef17]

Well why would I be arguing that Biggie was overrated while saying he was undoubtedly at the top of the game? I would say, as defined in the context of popularity because being "overrated" is directly related to one's popularity, that they were/are at the "top of the game". Besides, Nicki wins awards and sells albums too, and she's a huge polarizing icon in the entertainment world which helps vault her name alone.

 

If we were talking about the whole shebang, then I'd be throwing out names like Kanye and Jay, who will be going down amongst the greatest of all time, even though I personally think Jay is also overrated.

 

The point of my argument is that death will and does help an artist out tremendously if he doesn't see too much regression in popularity or fan credibility beforehand. If you don't think Mack, Nicki, Nelly would be good examples, fine. But take Weezy or 50 as an example. If they had tragically passed at their peaks, would they be regarded higher than they are right now? Undoubtedly so. Will they be classified as all time greats otherwise? Maybe, but probably unrightfully so.

 

"Top of the game" usually refers to the best (for a variety of reasons), not most popular. Even popularity depends on whether you are talking about simply radio play ( favor Nicki and Wayne because they are featured on a lot of songs) or record sales.

 

As far as Biggie, he was heavily responsible for showcasing New York and the East coast when Hip Hop was dominated by the likes of Tupac, Dr Dre, and Snoop. When he was alive he was thought of as the one of the best of his time. Those have a lot more to do with him being considered an all time great then him passing at his peak.

 

Wayne is known for metaphors and 50 had one great album, then slowly started to fall. No dead or alive I don't think anyone would classify them as all time greats

[YOLO!]

Nelly was so dope, and I don't even know why. His lyrics and production weren't really anything special, but he had some sort of captivating personality and energy.

Nelly was popular for his looks, most of his fans was the female crowd. He wasn't really a rap lyricist more of a sex symbol. Nelly had the girls getting hot n here.

[Seal (SmittyIsOurSavior)]

"Top of the game" usually refers to the best (for a variety of reasons), not most popular. Even popularity depends on whether you are talking about simply radio play ( favor Nicki and Wayne because they are featured on a lot of songs) or record sales.

 

As far as Biggie, he was heavily responsible for showcasing New York and the East coast when Hip Hop was dominated by the likes of Tupac, Dr Dre, and Snoop. When he was alive he was thought of as the one of the best of his time. Those have a lot more to do with him being considered an all time great then him passing at his peak.

 

Wayne is known for metaphors and 50 had one great album, then slowly started to fall. No dead or alive I don't think anyone would classify them as all time greats

 

I mean, there are other examples too if you want them. Nelly isn't a bad example, two solid albums that were critically successful as well as financially. I would regard Lil Wayne in the general Carter III era as "top of the game" even in your respect. You could take Lupe after F&L and The Cool, or maybe Andre after his first few Outkast albums. Kendrick (or maybe even Drake?) right now. 

 

You don't think their popularity and overall staying power and legendary status would be much higher regarded if they were tragically gunned down at their peaks? Again, undoubtedly. Maybe not all of those examples would start going down as the best of all time, Kendrick and Andre are probably the only two of those 6 who might, but still. It would vault them for sure.

[Floppin]

I mean, there are other examples too if you want them. Nelly isn't a bad example, two solid albums that were critically successful as well as financially. I would regard Lil Wayne in the general Carter III era as "top of the game" even in your respect. You could take Lupe after F&L and The Cool, or maybe Andre after his first few Outkast albums. Kendrick (or maybe even Drake?) right now. 

 

You don't think their popularity and overall staying power and legendary status would be much higher regarded if they were tragically gunned down at their peaks? Again, undoubtedly. Maybe not all of those examples would start going down as the best of all time, Kendrick and Andre are probably the only two of those 6 who might, but still. It would vault them for sure.

 

Andre and/or Outkast are hip-hop royalty and legends.

[Seal (SmittyIsOurSavior)]

Andre and/or Outkast are hip-hop royalty and legends.

 

While that's true, Ii's not even debatable that he would be so much higher regarded if her were shot after Speakerboxxx. You never here him thrown around as the all time greatest, while Pac and Biggie are in that conversation 100% of the time, and even Pun who was mediocre is regarded as a top 5-10 rapper.

[Floppin]

While that's true, Ii's not even debatable that he would be so much higher regarded if her were shot after Speakerboxxx. You never here him thrown around as the all time greatest, while Pac and Biggie are in that conversation 100% of the time, and even Pun who was mediocre is regarded as a top 5-10 rapper.

Of course you do. Though it's generally the tandem and not the individual. Either way, if you haven't, you're talking to the wrong people.

[Seal (SmittyIsOurSavior)]

Of course you do. Though it's generally the tandem and not the individual. Either way, if you haven't, you're talking to the wrong people.

 

People talk about Outkast in the conversation as the single greatest of all time?

 

Maybe I am in the wrong place with the wrong people then. All I ever hear is Pac, Biggie, and then Eminem from the weird white kids.

[chef17]

I mean, there are other examples too if you want them. Nelly isn't a bad example, two solid albums that were critically successful as well as financially. I would regard Lil Wayne in the general Carter III era as "top of the game" even in your respect. You could take Lupe after F&L and The Cool, or maybe Andre after his first few Outkast albums. Kendrick (or maybe even Drake?) right now. 

 

You don't think their popularity and overall staying power and legendary status would be much higher regarded if they were tragically gunned down at their peaks? Again, undoubtedly. Maybe not all of those examples would start going down as the best of all time, Kendrick and Andre are probably the only two of those 6 who might, but still. It would vault them for sure.

 

I agree Nelly was great but again, I don't think he was ever considered the best at the time. Wayne maybe for a short period of time. Disagree with Lupe, Kendrick and Drake. And as Floppin said Outkast are already considered legends by most if not all of hip hop.

 

Of course dying at the peak would help pretty much another artist with popularity. That doesn't mean they would suddenly become legends. Most legends of hip hops are regarded that way because of their lasting impact and their influence on future generations. So I don't think Wayne would become an all time great if he was tragically killed because besides great metaphors, he didn't bring much. 15 years from now I don't think we will be seeing any left over effect from Wayne in hip hop.

[TheRumGone]

While that's true, Ii's not even debatable that he would be so much higher regarded if her were shot after Speakerboxxx. You never here him thrown around as the all time greatest, while Pac and Biggie are in that conversation 100% of the time, and even Pun who was mediocre is regarded as a top 5-10 rapper.

 

 

1. stop with the ranking systems they are a waste of time.

 

2. make your own list about how you rank and explain why (with actual thoughtfulness besides "oh if he were shot, oh if he was black nonsense) listen to the music and decide for your own

 

3. andre 3000 is my favorite rapper of all time and he is known as one of the best by fellow rappers

 

My mind warps and bends floats the wind count to ten

meet the twin Andre Ben. welcome to the lion's den

original skin many men comprehend

I extend myself so you go out & tell a friend

Sin all depends on what you believing in

Faith is what you make it that's the hardest poo since MC Ren

Alien can blend right on in wit' yo' kin

look again 'cause I swear I spot one every now & then

It's happenin' again wish I could tell you when

Andre this is Andre y'all just gon' have to make amends

[Seal (SmittyIsOurSavior)]

I've stated my case, I stand by it. Biggie isn't that great, neither is Pun. Em is good but overrated, as is Jay. Looking back at it all with no bias because I wasn't aware of hip-hop at the time, I'm not blinded by hype, word of mouth, media, talking heads, etc, and I was able to formulate my own opinions based off of what I heard and how I liked it.

 

Maybe I have a different taste, but I don't see the substance that everyone else does in Biggie's, Pun's, or Em's stuff, and I find Jay largely unoriginal and boring for the most part.

[TheRumGone]

I've stated my case, I stand by it. Biggie isn't that great, neither is Pun. Em is good but overrated, as is Jay. Looking back at it all with no bias because I wasn't aware of hip-hop at the time, I'm not blinded by hype, word of mouth, media, talking heads, etc, and I was able to formulate my own opinions based off of what I heard and how I liked it.

 

Maybe I have a different taste, but I don't see the substance that everyone else does in Biggie's, Pun's, or Em's stuff, and I find Jay largely unoriginal and boring for the most part.

 

you are being narrowminded.

 

it's like saying Pantera was awful because their lyrics were not good.

 

they were kick ass and revolutionary in their own right, just like biggie.

 

and one of your favie's Rakim thinks Eminem is one of GOAT.

[TheRumGone]

ill add listen to biggie nowadays. it still stands. its not outdated.

[Floppin]

I've stated my case, I stand by it. Biggie isn't that great, neither is Pun. Em is good but overrated, as is Jay. Looking back at it all with no bias because I wasn't aware of hip-hop at the time, I'm not blinded by hype, word of mouth, media, talking heads, etc, and I was able to formulate my own opinions based off of what I heard and how I liked it.

 

Maybe I have a different taste, but I don't see the substance that everyone else does in Biggie's, Pun's, or Em's stuff, and I find Jay largely unoriginal and boring for the most part.

 

Man, but that's precisely the point that I keep trying to tell you and you're just not getting it. You're viewing all this music, all this history, in a vacuum with no historical context. It's like you're literally fingering through a bag of marbles and finding the ones that you like best. You are a newbie to the genre, relatively, and you are working from a very current mindset while looking at a vast history of a musical subset. It's literally impossible for you to understand without having lived it. 

 

You can't understand why music was original and revolutionary because you didn't live it at the time. It sounds bland to you, fine, but you're looking at it outside of context. Most of the music that you've listed in this thread didn't even exist at the time. Everyone's got their favorites, but the ones who are generally considered ground breakers and legends in the industry, are so because, well they were. They were inspirations for every future generation of the music, and it's from their musical inspiration that the genre has evolved. There are tons of fringe groups that were awesome, but it's the biggest and the best that have driven the direction of the industry. 

 

Hip-hop lost it's way about 5 years ago, and it's slowly coming back around, thank fuging god. There's less 2chainz and more Kendricks, and Hopsins, and Prince EA's and etc etc. 

 

As far as arguing who's the best and the most culturally relevant to the genre....you're just poo outta luck kid. You don't get it, and I don't think you will. 

[Seal (SmittyIsOurSavior)]

you are being narrowminded.

 

it's like saying Pantera was awful because their lyrics were not good.

 

they were kick ass and revolutionary in their own right, just like biggie.

 

and one of your favie's Rakim thinks Eminem is one of GOAT.

 

I'm not being narrow minded, and I never said anyone was awful, although I don't know of this Pantera you speak of. The bread company? They're pretty good dude.

 

And I never said lyrics were everything. I recognized Em for his flow and style, Jay for his conceptualism, Biggie for his interesting sound... Pun for nothing.

 

But I just don't see the big Biggie hype. IT WAS ALL A DREAM. Like cool sound and all, but you need more than just one thing to succeed to really be good in my books.

 

Also, I don't really care what other rappers think man, I don't value their opinions over mine when assessing what I like and dislike haha.