Hendo Gone?

[Chaos]

Is there any real timeline around all of this?  What is the FA window?  Does a QA sit on the table for a certain period of time and then expire or something?

[GotSwag?]

Im up in the air about Henderson.  I think hes a very good player and like someone else said on here, a top 10 SG in this league.  He can defend the 2 or the 3, is very athletic, very good mid range game and is improving from the 3 pt line.  Their is just something about him though that makes me lean towards Monta Ellis. 

 

Maybe its just Ellis.  Can he and Kemba co-exist?  Id love to find out.  I watched the Heat struggle against Ellis and I highly doubt the Bucks would have taken down the Heat if Jennings was on his game too, but with Ellis, we would have a LEGIT offensive team.  With MKG on the wing and Biyombo down low, we have guys that can shut down opposing teams best players, or contain them I should say.

 

We would be a better team with Ellis IMO.  Win a title?  Not this season, but if Kemba and Ellis co-exist along with our inside game, draft picks next season and we are smart about the money coming off the books, who knows...

[MadHatter]

Idk about better defense. Those are subjective stats really. While I applaud that he has more steals I feel that there must be more indicative stats out there to prove Hendo is a better overall defender. I could be wrong but I am curious as to how many points each allows on any given night. Shooting % of the opposing player when guarded by each respectively.

 

 

So the stats that everyone uses to evaluate a player are subjective.....and you feel there must be more indicative stats out there to prove your opinion.  Yet, you don't know what they are or where to find them.

 

Gotcha.

 

Basically you think Hendo is a better defender.....just because.

 

Interesting

[Its The Milk]

So the stats that everyone uses to evaluate a player are subjective.....and you feel there must be more indicative stats out there to prove your opinion.  Yet, you don't know what they are or where to find them.

 

Gotcha.

 

Basically you think Hendo is a better defender.....just because.

 

Interesting

 

Well meow! No need to get upset. I am saying that steals are not the only indicator of a skilled defender. I don't know where to find them and quite frankly don't really care that much to research it. I would be interested, however, to see those statistics if they were provided for me.

 

That is all.

[SOJA]

if we are going to lose him, might as well get something for him. though I'd much rather have Hendo than Monta 

[ItsPantone278]

I keep seeing top 10 SG in the league.. but lets take sometime here to rank and to see if that is true...

 

Kobe Bryant

James Harden

Dwayne Wade

Paul George

Monta Ellis

Jamal Crawford

Andre Iguodala

Eric Gordon

Joe Johnson

JR Smith

DeMar DeRozan

OJ Mayo

Tyreke Evans

Iman Shumpert

Manu Ginobili

 

where does Hendo fit on that list exactly...?

[CarolinaPanthers8789]

I keep seeing top 10 SG in the league.. but lets take sometime here to rank and to see if that is true...

 

Kobe Bryant

James Harden

Dwayne Wade

Paul George

Monta Ellis

Jamal Crawford

Andre Iguodala

Eric Gordon

Joe Johnson

JR Smith

DeMar DeRozan

OJ Mayo

Tyreke Evans

Iman Shumpert

Manu Ginobili

 

where does Hendo fit on that list exactly...?

 

Based on advanced statistics... he is better than Ellis, Crawford, Iguodala, Mayo, Evans, Shumpert, and Ginobli.

 

Paul George is is a small forward...

 

If I was to put them in groups...

 

Elite: Kobe Bryant, James Harden, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade

Next Level: DeMar DeRozan, Gerald Henderson, J.R. Smith, Eric Gordon

Very Good (Potential To Be Next Level): Tyreke Evans, Iman Shumpert, O.J. Mayo, Monta Ellis

On The Decline: Jamal Crawford, Manu Ginobli, Andre Iguodala

[PiratePanther189]

Man this just proves how weak the 2 guard is in the NBA nowadays. Here's my opinion (I took out Paul George as I believe that Indy will move Granger and allow George to play 3 and start or upgrade Stephenson)

 

16. OJ Mayo (Potential..but little defense and crazy shots make him seem like a headcase)

15. Eric Gordon (High ceiling again but I'd like to see him play even 1/2 of a season)

14. Tyreke Evans (Lack of a jumpshot and low FT % kills him...teams have learned how to defend him)

13. Lance Stephenson (Lot of potential after a high showing in the playoffs..he could end up a good player)

12. Iman Shumpert (Needs a more well rounded game...too much of a short burst slasher to be a consistent starter)

11. DeMar DeRozan (Once again..needs a consistent jump shot to crack the top 10 but he draws a lot of fouls and plays good defense)

10. Jamal Crawford (Getting up there in age but still can get it done off the bench)

9. Gerald Henderson (In my opinion very well rounded, jack of all trades..needs to become great at something instead of being just above average at everything to become a star. Not worth an 8+ mil contract at this time IMO)

8. JR Smith (I'd definitely bring him off the bench, but man is he an exciting player. He's any team's dream 6th man but he's a liability when he plays for 35+ minutes because of bad decisions on both sides of the ball)

7. Monta Ellis (Jumpshot can hurt his team at times because he isn't afraid to shoot and misses a lot, but he's still just about unstoppable on the drive. He makes some pretty spectacular plays)

6. Joe Johnson (Many people see him as overpaid and underperforming, but he's a great player. Clutch shooter, patient and smart on offense, and can defend any 2 guard even at his huge size. However he can't take over a game like he used to, wouldn't call him a star)

5. Andre Iguodala (I see Iggy as Hendo's ceiling but with a higher PPG avg. Another jack of all trades that any team would love to have at the right price. Not a star that will win games for you by putting points up, but he never necessarily LOSES a game for his team)

4. Manu Ginobli (We saw his age in the playoffs and finals this year, but still a fantastic player on the drive, shooting the ball, and on defense. He's a prototypical 2 guard and still one of the best in the league)

3. Kobe Bryant (After the achilles, we may never see the same Kobe again, but he still will probably show us next season flashes of his old self. Even a broken down Kobe is a star among stars and he's proved that for years playing through injuries)

2. Dwayne Wade (The only reason I put D-Wade at 2 is because I think his body is breaking down little by little, but there's little explination necessary on why he's in the top 2. He's conquered the best 3 times over in his career)

1. James Harden (Right now, I think that Harden proved he's the best 2 guard in the league by taking a Houston team that's low on talent to a 7 seed and competed with OKC in the first round. There is not a single glaring weakness in Harden's game. Superb defender, quality shooter, and he's scary driving the lane he'll either draw a foul or convert more than half of the time)

 

EDIT: And I also think that Brad Beal and Dion Waiters will end up high on this list in a couple years time...but I'm not sure either of them are better than OJ Mayo at this time.

 

[ItsPantone278]

Based on advanced statistics... he is better than Ellis, Crawford, Iguodala, Mayo, Evans, Shumpert, and Ginobli.

 

Paul George is is a small forward...

 

If I was to put them in groups...

 

Elite: Kobe Bryant, James Harden, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade

Next Level: DeMar DeRozan, Gerald Henderson, J.R. Smith, Eric Gordon

Very Good (Potential To Be Next Level): Tyreke Evans, Iman Shumpert, O.J. Mayo, Monta Ellis

On The Decline: Jamal Crawford, Manu Ginobli, Andre Iguodala

 

 

You should mention that he advanced stats you reference are solely based on last season.  One that Hendo missed a significant portion of due to injury.  Monta Ellis's career numbers really aren't comparable to those of GH.

 

Hendo is a player on the rise but I wouldn't classify him as clearly better than any of those guys.  Its debatable if Paul George is a 2 or 3.  Really he is both, but he has played the majority of his career and blossomed in the playoffs this year as a primary ball handler for his team.  He is an old school style swingman (swings from 2 to 3), those making him one of the best 2 guards in the league imo.

[CarolinaPanthers8789]

You should mention that he advanced stats you reference are solely based on last season.  One that Hendo missed a significant portion of due to injury.  Monta Ellis's career numbers really aren't comparable to those of GH.

 

Hendo is a player on the rise but I wouldn't classify him as clearly better than any of those guys.  Its debatable if Paul George is a 2 or 3.  Really he is both, but he has played the majority of his career and blossomed in the playoffs this year as a primary ball handler for his team.  He is an old school style swingman (swings from 2 to 3), those making him one of the best 2 guards in the league imo.

 

Henderson missed 12 games of 82... that's not exactly a significant portion. It still allows him to be qualified in advanced statistics rating.

 

As far as debating positions...

 

Ellis isn't a true shooting guard, so there is that... he has broken up two different back-courts now (Curry-Ellis, Jennings-Ellis) because he plays more like a point guard (one reason his assist count is so high) than a shooting guard. Monta Ellis's career numbers are going to be better than Henderson's because Ellis averages 7 more shot attempts per game than Henderson throughout both of their careers. I also want to remind you that Henderson didn't see the floor as a rookie because of Stephen Jackson and Raja Bell. He saw action as a pure back-up in his second season and in his third season he finally got to prove himself. Henderson started and recorded 15.1 points per game on 13.1 shots compared to Ellis's 19.7 points per game on 17.5 shots per game. It's weird because the number of shots Henderson took per game this year (12.6) decreased while his scoring numbers and efficiency increased (15.5 ppg) where as Ellis's numbers are nearly identical (17.5 shots per game) but his scoring efficiency decreased (19.2 ppg)...

 

If you want to argue which one is better suited for the Bobcats, there is no question it's Henderson. Ellis is the worst combo guard at shooting three's in the entire league. He plays too much like Kemba for them to be successful. I guarantee you that if we acquire Ellis, he will be the reason Kemba eventually leaves.

 

As far as George, there is no debate. Indiana has already expressed their desire to move Granger so that George can play his natural position... check a program, nba.com, espn.com... what position George guarded this year (i.e. LBJ)... the guys is a small forward.

[ItsPantone278]

Henderson missed 12 games of 82... that's not exactly a significant portion. It still allows him to be qualified in advanced statistics rating.

 

As far as debating positions...

 

Ellis isn't a true shooting guard, so there is that... he has broken up two different back-courts now (Curry-Ellis, Jennings-Ellis) because he plays more like a point guard (one reason his assist count is so high) than a shooting guard. Monta Ellis's career numbers are going to be better than Henderson's because Ellis averages 7 more shot attempts per game than Henderson throughout both of their careers. I also want to remind you that Henderson didn't see the floor as a rookie because of Stephen Jackson and Raja Bell. He saw action as a pure back-up in his second season and in his third season he finally got to prove himself. Henderson started and recorded 15.1 points per game on 13.1 shots compared to Ellis's 19.7 points per game on 17.5 shots per game. It's weird because the number of shots Henderson took per game this year (12.6) decreased while his scoring numbers and efficiency increased (15.5 ppg) where as Ellis's numbers are nearly identical (17.5 shots per game) but his scoring efficiency decreased (19.2 ppg)...

 

If you want to argue which one is better suited for the Bobcats, there is no question it's Henderson. Ellis is the worst combo guard at shooting three's in the entire league. He plays too much like Kemba for them to be successful. I guarantee you that if we acquire Ellis, he will be the reason Kemba eventually leaves.

 

As far as George, there is no debate. Indiana has already expressed their desire to move Granger so that George can play his natural position... check a program, nba.com, espn.com... what position George guarded this year (i.e. LBJ)... the guys is a small forward.

 

 

 

I don't disagree that Henderson is the better fit.  I would also argue Ellis is more of a PG than a true SG or 2 if you will.  But if you want to talk about who the most productive player is over a span of a career its Ellis without question.  He may average more shots but he also doesn't come out of games.  Not to mention his career assist averages.  We can speculate what his signing on in Charlotte would mean for himself Kemba or even Ramon but Ellis is simply a more productive player overall.  The fact that he put up the stats he did while playing in that cluster fug in Milwaukee is why I don't base my sole opinion on one years 'advance statistics'  But I am well aware of them. 

 

As for checking a program or a player profile I can guarantee they will all list him just a bit differently.  George is best described as a swingman and just calling him a 3 won't take away from his abilities as a guard.  But if you want to rank guards then I guess leave one of the best guards out. 

[PiratePanther189]

Henderson missed 12 games of 82... that's not exactly a significant portion. It still allows him to be qualified in advanced statistics rating.

 

As far as debating positions...

 

Ellis isn't a true shooting guard, so there is that... he has broken up two different back-courts now (Curry-Ellis, Jennings-Ellis) because he plays more like a point guard (one reason his assist count is so high) than a shooting guard. Monta Ellis's career numbers are going to be better than Henderson's because Ellis averages 7 more shot attempts per game than Henderson throughout both of their careers. I also want to remind you that Henderson didn't see the floor as a rookie because of Stephen Jackson and Raja Bell. He saw action as a pure back-up in his second season and in his third season he finally got to prove himself. Henderson started and recorded 15.1 points per game on 13.1 shots compared to Ellis's 19.7 points per game on 17.5 shots per game. It's weird because the number of shots Henderson took per game this year (12.6) decreased while his scoring numbers and efficiency increased (15.5 ppg) where as Ellis's numbers are nearly identical (17.5 shots per game) but his scoring efficiency decreased (19.2 ppg)...

 

If you want to argue which one is better suited for the Bobcats, there is no question it's Henderson. Ellis is the worst combo guard at shooting three's in the entire league. He plays too much like Kemba for them to be successful. I guarantee you that if we acquire Ellis, he will be the reason Kemba eventually leaves.

 

As far as George, there is no debate. Indiana has already expressed their desire to move Granger so that George can play his natural position... check a program, nba.com, espn.com... what position George guarded this year (i.e. LBJ)... the guys is a small forward.

 

This is my biggest problem. A backcourt combo should be able to cancel out each other's weaknesses. Kemba and Monta Ellis are such similar players that the offense would become such a clusterf*ck. They share the same strengths and weaknesses

 

[CarolinaPanthers8789]

I don't disagree that Henderson is the better fit.  I would also argue Ellis is more of a PG than a true SG or 2 if you will.  But if you want to talk about who the most productive player is over a span of a career its Ellis without question.  He may average more shots but he also doesn't come out of games.  Not to mention his career assist averages.  We can speculate what his signing on in Charlotte would mean for himself Kemba or even Ramon but Ellis is simply a more productive player overall.  The fact that he put up the stats he did while playing in that cluster fug in Milwaukee is why I don't base my sole opinion on one years 'advance statistics'  But I am well aware of them. 

 

As for checking a program or a player profile I can guarantee they will all list him just a bit differently.  George is best described as a swingman and just calling him a 3 won't take away from his abilities as a guard.  But if you want to rank guards then I guess leave one of the best guards out. 

 

If you are going to argue that George is more of a two than a three, then you have to be able to accept the fact that Ellis is clearly more of a point guard than a shooting guard (unless I am reading your post wrong).

 

Ellis without a doubt will have the better numbers because he has been in the league for nine years compared to Henderson's four. Henderson has also never been given the same opportunities as Ellis. Ellis has only averaged less that 34 minutes per game once in his career (his rookie year). Ellis even averaged over 40 minutes per game twice in his career. Henderson has never averaged more than 33.3 minutes per game in a season. If Henderson, was given the same opportunities as Ellis, we would not be having the discussion right now. Based on Henderson's per 48's and his scoring efficiency per shot, Henderson is the more productive player.

 

As far as the assists go, I already stated that he plays more like a point guard; so of course his assist count is going to be high. I really don't care what his assist total is, because his job is to create shots by spreading the floor not drive to the rim and kick. People complain about Henderson not being a great three point shooter, they will flip out when they see Ellis.

 

I also don't understand how you got the idea that Milwaukee was a cluster fug? If averaging 19 points per game on a "cluster fug" of a team that made the playoffs is amazing, then averaging 15.5 points per game on the sh*t storm that is the Charlotte Bobcats is downright the greatest thing to ever happen in the NBA.

[ZB1224]

 

Monta Ellis plays better Defense, rebounds and passes better than Henderson

 

Monta Ellis:

Points per game: 19.2

Steals per game: 2.1

Blocks per game: .4

Assists per game: 6.0

Rebounds per game: 3.9

 

Gerald Henderson:

Points per game: 15.5

Steals per game: 1.0

Blocks per game: .5

Assists per game: 2.6

Rebounds per game: 3.7

 

 

 

Idk about better defense. Those are subjective stats really. While I applaud that he has more steals I feel that there must be more indicative stats out there to prove Hendo is a better overall defender. I could be wrong but I am curious as to how many points each allows on any given night. Shooting % of the opposing player when guarded by each respectively.

 

 

 

So the stats that everyone uses to evaluate a player are subjective.....and you feel there must be more indicative stats out there to prove your opinion.  Yet, you don't know what they are or where to find them.

 

Gotcha.

 

Basically you think Hendo is a better defender.....just because.

 

Interesting

 

I don't mean to sound like I know it all or anything, but judging how good a player is at defense based solely on steals or blocks is a TERRIBLE way to evaluate said player. Steals and blocks are nice, obviously, but a high steal rate doesn't necessarily equate to good defense. Guys like Bruce Bowen and Thabo Sefolosha are considered great defenders, but they don't average a lot of steals for their career. On the flip side Kemba averaged 2 spg and was top 5 in the league in steals, but he graded out to be an AWFUL defensive player. Actually, looking at it -- this year Thabo averaged his 2nd most amount of spg ever, but had a bad year defensively. 

 

Just for a comparison of one on one defense between Henderson and Ellis.

 

Henderson gave up 0.66 points per possession when he was guarding a player in isolation.

Ellis gave up 0.81 points per possession when he was guarding a player in isolation.

 

Henderson gave up 0.94 points per possession when he was guarding a player in PnR (ballhandler).

Ellis gave up 0.58 points per possession when he was guarding a player in PnR (ballhandler). 

 

I won't really say that one is better defensively than the other, but they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Henderson is the better ISO defender by far, while Ellis is the better PnR defender by far. I feel that Henderson's size sets him a bit apart from Ellis, however. That's just my opinion though. I will also say that you can't fully judge a players defense just based on these Synergy stats, because defense isn't just about you, but also the entire team, as well as the coaching. If you have a defensive minded coach that has a slower offensive system, a good rim protector, and solid defensive players around you then that will make your defensive numbers on Synergy look a ton better. Either way, though steals and blocks aren't a very good way to judge a players defense.