Coaching is the Key to Success in 2013

[Floppin]

The downside of Hogmolies...

Otah may of realistically just been smart. Yeah, he could of been "tough" for us....and he also could of been out of football and a physical trainwreck by the age of 30. Human body isn't suppose to carry all that weight and go through what these guys do....

 

If there's two things you can count on here at the huddle, it's CRA hating on Deangelo and white-knighting for Otah.

[MHS831]

I  agree with those saying RIvera needs to get better.  Everyone on the team needs to get better.  Anyone who has watched football for any amount of time also knows that great coaching can make players and teams better. On the other hand players can make a coach look better than he is or worse. It is really a synergy between everyone that makes things succeed or fail.

 

It takes a whole team to be successful which includes the coaches, support personnel, GM, owner, etc.  Most of these discussions blaming one side of the ball or one person are shortsighted at best. 

 

 

55, there are indeed many ways to look at it.  Here are two:

 

Sure, Rivera blew a few games in the fourth quarter when you look through the lenses of hindsight.   Frankly, he was outcoached and never adjusted.  How does a well-coached Nakamura get beat deep in that situation?  Cutler and Marshall can hit slants all day vs. the air, so why did we not take that away?  Game management was suspect.  You could say that about Bill Billichek (sp?) too.  However, losing games in the fourth quarter (or overtime) by less than a TD consistently suggests he was being check mated by the opposition.

 

On the other hand, I have always been more critical of Hurney than anyone else.  You could argue that Rivera had the team in position to win with inferior or overpaid players who were not challenged by compettition.  Rivera did not have a former high draft pick at WR, DT, CB, S, RG, RT, DE, FB etc.  Hurney had been ineffective in free agency.  He had a ton of the cap invested in RB and did not have the line to make holes for them consistently.  How did RR win 7 games and the fact that he could have--should have-- won 10 is amazing.

 

Just a few thoughts.  We really have no way of knowing what goes on behind closed doors--only waht we see and hear through the rumor mill.  However, coaches are usually held accountable for the lack of success, regardless of who deserves the blame.

[MHS831]

By all accounts Chud did a great job his first year and until at least the bye it was unclear what was wrong the second year.  Chud was universally hailed as a great coordinator so who would he throw that out in year 2 right away. 

I agree Rivera is a defensive coach but the idea that he doesn't know offense is pretty naive. What do you think defensive coordinators do all day preparing their defense for the next game.  Yeah that would be breaking down offenses to find their weaknesses and way to exploit them.  You really think that you can consistently build number 1 defenses without an intricate and detailed knowledge of every offensive system.  Rivera knows a lot about offenses.  You whole idea that Rivera had no clue is ridiculous. He knew what Chud was doing and approved it, I am sure. He was obviously wrong but mess happens.  Hopefully he learned from it.

I hear you, but do not for one minute believe that a coach with extensive defensive experience knows offense as well as an offensive coach because he had to plan against it. That is just not correct. There is much more to it than strategy. If this were true, more offensive coordinators would be hired from the defensive side of the ball--that is very rare for a reason.

I never said Rivera had no clue--putting words in peoples' mouths and then arguing against those words is ridiculous.  I said he allowed Chud to go rogue because Chud had success the year before.  If you think going 2-8 before noticeable changes are made is having your hand on the pulse of the offense, then you are naive.  Sorry, but there is no evidence to suggest that  Rivera had control of the offense. There is a suggestion, however, that things changed after the tampa bay game in Charlotte-when he lost the 4th quarter lead and the game in overtime. 

[FootballMaestro]

I hear you, but do not for one minute believe that a coach with extensive defensive experience knows offense as well as an offensive coach because he had to plan against it. That is just not correct. There is much more to it than strategy. If this were true, more offensive coordinators would be hired from the defensive side of the ball--that is very rare for a reason.

I never said Rivera had no clue--putting words in peoples' mouths and then arguing against those words is ridiculous.  I said he allowed Chud to go rogue because Chud had success the year before.  If you think going 2-8 before noticeable changes are made is having your hand on the pulse of the offense, then you are naive.  Sorry, but there is no evidence to suggest that  Rivera had control of the offense. There is a suggestion, however, that things changed after the tampa bay game in Charlotte-when he lost the 4th quarter lead and the game in overtime. 

 

I agree. 

 

I was trying to write him a response to, but somehow lost it. I'm too lazy to re-write it. So I'll respond only here. 

 

Yes, Rivera should have been more involved on an executive level with the offense and it's direction. Absolutely. 

 

But to assume, he would know on a Coach or OC Level, just cause he's the DC, is ludicrous. 

 

Rivera has no idea what individual plays are designed for which particular player, in what scenarios, etc., and he certainly doesn't know the Offensive play book like Chud or Shula. 

 

But then again, that was the same poster trying to argue, Cam should be more compared to Matt Ryan, than the usual suspects Kaep, Wilson, RG3, and Luck. In addition, this individual,  would call some of us 'Cam Apologist', when we point out the inconsistencies in their bitter sounding 'Cam Fail' logic.

 

SMH 

[SevyDamus]

I do agree that coaching or lack of coaching has been a major issue with this team & probably agree it has lost us more then a few game. I do like Riveria & first time coaches also need to learn from trial by error. Still I would say the biggest issue for the team success moving forward is health that's key in my mind.

[Dont Check My Chicken]

The decision not to kick a FG before the half in the Chicago game was just plain crazy. 

 

Also him being too much of a pussy to get Chud in line and take back his team really bothered the poo out of me.

 

That poor decision to forgo the field goal attempt in Chicago was the worst mistake that revealed a stomach churning passivity. And it will haunt me until Rivera can prove he has learned from his mistakes. While I hope he has learned from that mistake, any hint of passivity from Rivera will remind us of that incredible blunder!

[DaveThePanther2008]

Truly sorry you haven't seen the growth I have. IMO, the light went on for Rivera when Keek moved to MLB. He seemed to have become more decisive and aggressive. He even commented that he felt more confident to be more aggressive. Something to the effect of, keep your foot on the gas longer.

First time coaches make mistakes. Hellz, every coach makes mistakes. And I feel he is making less mistakes as he has grown into the position. You have to go through the situation to learn from it. And in my mind. Rivera is a quick study. He gets it.

That time out against the taints was unfortunate. Someone was yelling 12 men, so Rivera took a time out instead of giving up 5 yards. We have all seen the pic of Rivera chewing out the messenger. But I am not blind to his track record, but I am not as afraid of history as some others round here.

I can feel how folks can be apprehensive, I really can. The Rivera era started off a tad bumpy. I, and a few others, just happen to feel he is growing into his job nicely.

tl/dr version. Rivera is learning to trust himself. He knows football. He is open to change. He listens. His players play hard. Best of all, he gots this.

I was on the bandwagon to let him go.  Year one was learning experience for everyone.  Chudz had this mindset that he was going to change football with the read option as a staple.  Rivera bought into and allowed Chudz to basically ruin our season.  After Rivera pulled the plug on Chudz we started to do better.

 

Shula may not be the offensive mind Chudz was but I think will be more levelheaded.  I also believe he will adjust much better.

 

When management gave Rivera another shot.  So did I.  I hope we both don't regret it.

[ladypanther]

I was on the bandwagon to let him go.  

 

Me too.  However I am hanging on Gettlemen's words.  I hope he does make Rivera better.  He seems like a hell of a guy....just want him to become a hell of a coach. I am hoping he makes it.

[DaveThePanther2008]

Me too.  However I am hanging on Gettlemen's words.  I hope he does make Rivera better.  He seems like a hell of a guy....just want him to become a hell of a coach. I am hoping he makes it.

ME TOO!!!!

[CRA]

This comment was very interesting. I had the same thought. However, let me throw another perspective at you that does not contradict this as much as it probably explains it-tell me what you think:

Rivera was focused on defense (McDermott) and has limited knowledge of the offense. Chud and Cam had a good 2011, and Chud did not get the head coaching job he wanted, so Rivera spent the 2012 preseason focused on the bottom-dwelling Defense.

However, there is an underlying issue that I wondered about. Why, as a rookie head coach, would you surround yourself with young and somewhat inexperienced assistant coaches? My theory: He did not want people under him who were threatening to his authority. However Chud developed an offense Rivera did not understand enough to regulate. Just a theory, but I have seen this dynamic on a much lesser degree (high school), where the OC is the only one who knows the system as a whole.

That is where Rivera lost it. I have never heard a head coach say, "I am going to work with the defense...." etc. To me, not only does that skew your focus, it allows the OC to go rogue. In addition, you diminish the credibilty of the DC. Why hire McDermott if you are going to have to oversee his defense?

Rivera should have taken the reins and did not. He lost the team by turning his back on the offense,

Pretty sure last season Rivera addressed that in hindsight he would have like to of had someone in addition to Shula that had prior HC experience on the staff.

and Chud wasn't running an O Rivera didn't understand.....Rivera was the DC for Norv. He knows the Norv O. Adding the read option and running the same Norv plays off it....isn't a new offense.

and there is no reason to believe he ever lost this team....they finish too strong for that talk

[CRA]

I hear you, but do not for one minute believe that a coach with extensive defensive experience knows offense as well as an offensive coach because he had to plan against it. That is just not correct. There is much more to it than strategy. If this were true, more offensive coordinators would be hired from the defensive side of the ball--that is very rare for a reason.

I never said Rivera had no clue--putting words in peoples' mouths and then arguing against those words is ridiculous. I said he allowed Chud to go rogue because Chud had success the year before. If you think going 2-8 before noticeable changes are made is having your hand on the pulse of the offense, then you are naive. Sorry, but there is no evidence to suggest that Rivera had control of the offense. There is a suggestion, however, that things changed after the tampa bay game in Charlotte-when he lost the 4th quarter lead and the game in overtime.

Rivera knows the O extremely well....he was Norv's DC. Every year he has had his defense go up against that O for years and years in OTAs, TC, etc. He knows it and believes in it....which is why HE brought the same O to Carolina.

Chud runs Norv's O....adding the read option doesn't make it a different offense. Same plays are executed.

[panthers55]

I agree. 

 

I was trying to write him a response to, but somehow lost it. I'm too lazy to re-write it. So I'll respond only here. 

 

Yes, Rivera should have been more involved on an executive level with the offense and it's direction. Absolutely. 

 

But to assume, he would know on a Coach or OC Level, just cause he's the DC, is ludicrous. 

 

Rivera has no idea what individual plays are designed for which particular player, in what scenarios, etc., and he certainly doesn't know the Offensive play book like Chud or Shula. 

 

But then again, that was the same poster trying to argue, Cam should be more compared to Matt Ryan, than the usual suspects Kaep, Wilson, RG3, and Luck. In addition, this individual,  would call some of us 'Cam Apologist', when we point out the inconsistencies in their bitter sounding 'Cam Fail' logic.

 

SMH 

Again with the personal attacks as if you have any credibility to be  castigating others.  If you had coached as any level you would know that for a coach to defend an offensive system he has to know it inside and out, as well as study the OC to know what he does in certain situations with specific down and distance.  He knows not only what different teams can do in specific situations based on certain formations but he knows what that particular OC does in particular formations based on where they are on the field, the down and distance based on film and history.  So ro assume he doesn't have a very good grasp of any offense is frankly naive.  If you had said he has no history of designing specific plays or calling plays in a game then you would be right  but if you don't think he knows exactly what we run or our playbook then you forgot our defense plays against our offense every day. And if Rivera has designed and worked the defense to play against our offense, then he had to know our offense and the playbook as well as Chud or Shula.  To say anything else is stupid.

 

And again if you would listen to what I said you would know that my comment about Ryan was that he will be compared to Ryan on both occasions we play then this year and how he matches up to Ryan and Brees and Freeman in leading his team will be much more important than how he compares to RGIII or other guys we won't even play.  Who cares how he compares to Luck? Yeah you don't think it matter how he compares to other quarterbacks we play this year but it matters how he plays against Luck who we don't play?  I guess in fantasy football but not in the real game. Why not stop now before you go from an apologist to looking like a relative or his agent.  

 

There  really is nothing wrong with admitting that Newton has issues and needs to improve across the board. He would be the first to admit that.  Why do people like you have to makes excuses for him when he doesn't feel a need to do that at all.

[Darknight]

This comment was very interesting.  I had the same thought.  However, let me throw another perspective at you that does not contradict this as much as it probably explains it-tell me what you think:

 

Rivera was focused on defense (McDermott) and has limited knowledge of the offense.  Chud and Cam had a good 2011, and Chud did not get the head coaching job he wanted, so Rivera spent the 2012 preseason focused on the bottom-dwelling Defense. 

 

However, there is an underlying issue that I wondered about.  Why, as a rookie head coach, would you surround yourself with young and somewhat inexperienced assistant coaches?  My theory:  He did not want people under him who were threatening to his authority.   However Chud developed an offense Rivera did not understand enough to regulate.  Just a theory, but I have seen this dynamic on a much lesser degree (high school), where the OC is the only one who knows the system as a whole.

 

That is where Rivera lost it. I have never heard a head coach say, "I am going to work with the defense...." etc.  To me, not only does that skew your focus, it allows the OC to go rogue.  In addition, you diminish the credibilty of the DC.  Why hire McDermott if you are going to have to oversee his defense?

 

Rivera should have taken the reins and did not.  He lost the team by turning his back on the offense,

 

Can you clarify your statement about him losing the team?

 

[MHS831]

Can you clarify your statement about him losing the team?

 

I meant "season".  Good catch--remarkably, he did not lose the team at all.  I really think he lost the season by focusing his attention on the defense because going into last year,  

Chud was highly regarded and the offense was clicking. 

Rivera, by his own admission, was going to have his hand on the operations on the defensive side of the ball, his area of expertise.

I do not think (and this is pure speculation, as is most of what is said on discussion boards) RR knew how to fix the unexpected offensive ills--the slow start last year.  I do not think Chud knew.

 

I think (and I am going out on a small limb here) that Rivera's game management was an issue because he did not  have more of a global perspective of the team.  I think that changed at the end of the season, but not until after everyone said his job was on the line. 

 

I also expect Rivera to be better in 2013.  Having the support and respect of the players is important. 

 

Here is the biggest supposition I am going to make:  Could the simplified verbage be, in part, something Rivera requested so that he could monitor the offense more effectively?  They would never say it and it is probably not the case, but we never know.