Rivera: Panthers' new offense will be more of a collaberative effort

[teeray]

TC/DC

Too convoluted/ don't care. LOL

You know you obviously subscribe to the notion that when you can't convince them with intelligence you need to baffle them with convoluted BS. To that extent you win hands down. As for the rest, seriously dude, you need a life.........

It is hard to explain without it getting a little convoluted. But if you are going to declare my analysis incorrect like you did in the previous post I feel like I should defend that analysis.

I apologize if you feel my intelligence is not up to par, but I would like to say that in none of my posts did I belittle your intelligence or say anything derogatory toward you. I simply defended what I posted.

I actually have always respected you as a poster and think u are one of the smarter people on this board.

Sorry if I offended you.

[panthers55]

It is hard to explain without it getting a little convoluted. But if you are going to declare my analysis incorrect like you did in the previous post I feel like I should defend that analysis.

I apologize if you feel my intelligence is not up to par, but I would like to say that in none of my posts did I belittle your intelligence or say anything derogatory toward you. I simply defended what I posted.

I actually have always respected you as a poster and think u are one of the smarter people on this board.

Sorry if I offended you.

Don't assume that I don't think you are smart or that I was trying to be derogatory.  I may have overstated my case in saying your logic is convoluted but it is inaccurate. Yes I could cite points but that would just keep this going for 5 more pages.  Suffice it to say that anyone who can use the word conflate accurately is not ignorant.  

I don't want to go into another discussion given that it looks like bickering between 2 guys who are trying to compare their pseudo intellectual understanding about football stats.  So lets try another tack.

 

The reality in football is that yardage stats are really irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it is in total, per drive, per play etc.  If a team gives up 250 yards in 5 drives, 10 drives or 20 drives, does it matter in the outcome of the game? I say no it doesn't because yards and turnovers aren't counted in the final tally.  What is? Point scored for and points against.  Pittsburgh wasn't the best defense in 2012, Seattle was,  surrendering 15.3 points a game.  Pittsburgh was good at 19.6 which was good for 6th. But for example, Atlanta gave up over 1000 yards more than Pittsburgh but gave up a point less a game. Which is the only thing that matters in the final score. So whose defense was better, Pittsburgh or Atlanta?  Your stats say Pittsburgh, mine say Atlanta. The difference between my stats and yours is that mine does determine who wins the game, yours doesn't.  So how was our defense?  Based on points surrendered, it was average at 18th on the list surrendering 22.7 per game. But even that might be overstated given that you can give up points in junk time like we did against Atlanta and New Orleans the second time when you have a big lead and still win the game but it inflates your totals across the board.  So to be more accurate you would have to count points surrendered when the game was in question.  But I digress.............

 

All the rest is for stat geeks forgotten as soon as it is written.  And I include myself in that indictment as well.

[teeray]

Don't assume that I don't think you are smart or that I was trying to be derogatory. I may have overstated my case in saying your logic is convoluted but it is inaccurate. Yes I could cite points but that would just keep this going for 5 more pages. Suffice it to say that anyone who can use the word conflate accurately is not ignorant.

I don't want to go into another discussion given that it looks like bickering between 2 guys who are trying to compare their pseudo intellectual understanding about football stats. So lets try another tack.

The reality in football is that yardage stats are really irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it is in total, per drive, per play etc. If a team gives up 250 yards in 5 drives, 10 drives or 20 drives, does it matter in the outcome of the game? I say no it doesn't because yards and turnovers aren't counted in the final tally. What is? Point scored for and points against. Pittsburgh wasn't the best defense in 2012, Seattle was, surrendering 15.3 points a game. Pittsburgh was good a was good for 6th. But for example, Atlanta gave up over 1000 yards more than Pittsburgh but gave up a point less a game. Which is the only thing that matters in the final score. So whose defense was better, Pittsburgh or Atlanta? Your stats say Pittsburgh, mine say Atlanta. The difference between my stats and yours is that my does determine who wins the game, yours doesn't. So how was our defense? Based on points surrendered, it was average at 18 th on the list surrendering 22.7 per game.

All the rest is for stat geeks forgotten as soon as it is written. And I include myself in that indictment as well.

If it is any consolation I am aware that I get way too convoluted sometimes. I try to explain what i am thinking then try to explain how I came to that conclusion and before I know it it is a wall of text.

So to prevent that from happening again I will just say I mostly disagree with you on last year's defense.

Short and sweet ;)

[FootballMaestro]

I do think that Newton will have a lot of freedom to call audibles and change things at the line.  He is going into year 3 and showed toward the end of the season that he could protect the ball and make good decisions.  I don't think Chud thought he could though.  If I remember correctly there was some discussion at the beginning of the year suggesting that the staff didn't think newton could pick up the offense they created and were trying to simplify it so he could pick it up.  Then later in the year they simplified things so Newton could play faster. 

 

Did I make that up or was there some discussion along the way last year.....

 

This is a fallacy, that continues to get bandied about. 

 

It was Rivera (when asked in a Charlotte Observer, or NFL.com article), who said they "simplified the offense", in defense of their terrible play calling the first half of 2012. He was trying to save face, with out incriminating himself or Chud, when his job was on the line, and the media wanted answers on the teams offensive disparity. 

 

What he and Chud were actually talking about was the ZONE READ, where Cam had to be a decision maker, on both the run as well as the pass (combined with the fact that you needed different blocking schemes; it wasn't suited to the Panther running backs, and Cam wasn't the best decision maker handing off to them). That was the SIMPLIFICATION. It also had to do with waiting for long routes to develop, when it was clear the offensive line was tissue paper. So there was an additional commitment to quicker routes, and shorter passes when available, by Newton and the offense. No more disproportionate waiting/commitments to the Zone Read or Long Routes, especially when in-effective. 

 

Cam picked up the offense great, from day one with the Panthers as a Rookie (or at least for what was to be expected) in 2011. "Simplifying the offense" the second half of 2012, was actually to make Cam more of a pocket passer, and the ultimate decision maker on scrambles/the play breaking down, as he was during his rookie season (and the second half of 2012). Somehow this gets lost in the ether (originally due to poor reporting by less than scrupulous broadcasters; followed by internet commentators that believe them, repeated it, that didn't know better)? Shrugs. 

 

It's also well known, that despite the fact that Cam called several audibles for touch downs or big plays on his own as a Rookie (via Ryan Kalil and the Charlotte Observer): It was more a factor of Chud controlling the offense, and not wanting his play calling changed. Steve Smith and Greg Olsen (as well as others), had already discussed or touched on this in the past on WFNZ. It wasn't cause Cam was a bad quarterback at making decisions or reading defense as your alluding/referencing to (at least any more or less so that was expected). It was Chud! And that's what Rivera is referencing to now, about the "collaborative effort". The position coaches, were reportedly not thrilled with Chud's high handed attitude/lack of inclusion. Steve Smith grumbled/spoke openly about that/this on WFNZ this year, after the season. 

[panthers55]

This is a fallacy, that continues to get bandied about. 

 

It was Rivera (when asked in a Charlotte Observer, or NFL.com article), who said they "simplified the offense", in defense of their terrible play calling the first half of 2012. He was trying to save face, with out incriminating himself or Chud, when his job was on the line, and the media wanted answers on the teams offensive disparity. 

 

What he and Chud were actually talking about was the ZONE READ, where Cam had to be a decision maker, on both the run as well as the pass (combined with the fact that you needed different blocking schemes; it wasn't suited to the Panther running backs, and Cam wasn't the best decision maker handing off to them). That was the SIMPLIFICATION. It also had to do with waiting for long routes to develop, when it was clear the offensive line was tissue paper. So there was an additional commitment to quicker routes, and shorter passes when available, by Newton and the offense. No more disproportionate waiting/commitments to the Zone Read or Long Routes, especially when in-effective. 

 

Cam picked up the offense great, from day one with the Panthers as a Rookie (or at least for what was to be expected) in 2011. "Simplifying the offense" the second half of 2012, was actually to make Cam more of a pocket passer, and the ultimate decision maker on scrambles/the play breaking down, as he was during his rookie season (and the second half of 2012). Somehow this gets lost in the ether (originally due to poor reporting by less than scrupulous broadcasters; followed by internet commentators that believe them, repeated it, that didn't know better)? Shrugs. 

 

It's also well known, that despite the fact that Cam called several audibles for touch downs or big plays on his own as a Rookie (via Ryan Kalil and the Charlotte Observer): It was more a factor of Chud controlling the offense, and not wanting his play calling changed. Steve Smith and Greg Olsen (as well as others), had already discussed or touched on this in the past on WFNZ. It wasn't cause Cam was a bad quarterback at making decisions or reading defense as your alluding/referencing to (at least any more or less so that was expected). It was Chud! And that's what Rivera is referencing to now, about the "collaborative effort". The position coaches, were reportedly not thrilled with Chud's high handed attitude/lack of inclusion. Steve Smith grumbled/spoke openly about that/this on WFNZ this year, after the season. 

Most of what you discuss is well known to most here and has been beaten up to death.  The part about the zone read complexities which Chud added during the offseason were part of the issue as I remember.  it wasn't about Rivera at all but one of the posters here had a neighbor who was an assistant coach or something to that effect.  But the gist of the conversation by this assistant was that Newton couldn't pick up Chud's more complex offense and was making wrong reads all the time.  There was concern that he wasn't going to master it which is when they started to change it and go back to more one read key on running plays.  At least the thinking was that Chud was telling Newton what to do because he couldn't make the right call himself. 

 

I am of the mind that Chud was trying to be too cute and making things too complicated and that when they allowed newton to react instead of think too much he was much better and effective. And I doubt that Chud would ever blame himself for any problems so newton was the obvious scapegoat.  But there was some clear finger pointing at Cam by Chud and the offensive staff which was discussed to the point that I would be aware of it.  Hopefully that is behind us and won't be a factor.  Still it should be interesting to see if the same thing happens with Weedon in Cleveland.

[FootballMaestro]

Most of what you discuss is well known to most here and has been beaten up to death.  The part about the zone read complexities which Chud added during the offseason were part of the issue as I remember.  it wasn't about Rivera at all but one of the posters here had a neighbor who was an assistant coach or something to that effect.  But the gist of the conversation by this assistant was that Newton couldn't pick up Chud's more complex offense and was making wrong reads all the time.  There was concern that he wasn't going to master it which is when they started to change it and go back to more one read key on running plays.  At least the thinking was that Chud was telling Newton what to do because he couldn't make the right call himself. 

 

I am of the mind that Chud was trying to be too cute and making things too complicated and that when they allowed newton to react instead of think too much he was much better and effective. And I doubt that Chud would ever blame himself for any problems so newton was the obvious scapegoat.  But there was some clear finger pointing at Cam by Chud and the offensive staff which was discussed to the point that I would be aware of it.  Hopefully that is behind us and won't be a factor.  Still it should be interesting to see if the same thing happens with Weedon in Cleveland.

 

Thanks for your response.

 

I'm not trying to be rude. But sorry, end of discussion here with that comment (the bolded portion), as a source/reference. It doesn't give you much leg to stand on.  

 

I haven't read or heard (via rumor, players, Carolina Media, or the coaching that staff), that Cam was pointed out as the culprit on offense. However, I've heard many allude to Chud being the one hindering the Panther offense last year. 

 

Chud did have a big play book, and Cam played with out a wrist band (where most don't). If anything, Cam should be applauded for that, especially as a rookie in a strike shortened season. And let's even say what you're saying is true: How many players (mind you rookies) would learn Chud's notoriously voluminous playbook in a strike shortened season, especially with out wristbands? You do realize, there's a reason why all those NFL QB's (including top QB's) wear wristbands?

 

Speaking about Simplification: Remember, RG3 'struggled' in training camp, and many observers felt that Cousins was the better QB in Camp. Guess what? The Redskins SIMPLIFIED the offense (way more so than the Panthers have ever done for Cam, I may add), and RG3 is now a Cover Boy, Media Darling. Do Redskin fans or anyone else, ever talk about that? Of course not. You can also say the same was done for Russel Wilson, at the beginning of the season, and Colin Kaepernick his first season in a half (being spoon fed, though Wilson did beat out Matt Moore in Camp, as they weren't given much responsibility at first). But who's talking about that? You get where I'm going with this (in a multiple of ways)?

 

Truth be told: Luck, Newton and Tannenhill (if you wanna include him), were the only top young/Rookie QB's the past two seasons that were NOT 'Managed' on their arrival. The rest absolutely were. 

 

And to even insinuate (though your doing it via unquoted, referenced third and 4th parties) that Cam was some how a hindrance to Chud or slow in learning the offense, is thoroughly laughable, when Newton's the main reason why the offense actually clicks, can look scary in the first place (especially in comparison to the carefully managed seasons of a Dalton, RG3, Kaepernick, and even Wilson). How was the Panthers offense the year before Newton's arrival? I know you attempted some balance, later in your post. But I'm a little lost here. Cam is certainly not perfect. I'll be the first to admit that. Nonetheless, this argument sounds all to amusing, on a Panthers Forum no less (and feeds into the flippant media meme of Cam being Immature, not a hardworker and slow/dumb). 

 

Once again: Those quotes were by Rivera/Chud speaking about a step back in the Zone Read (and reducing long passing pattern, due to the poor blocking), with unknowing or unscrupulous broadcasters running with it, providing their own interpretations in relation to Cam.  That's all it is, was. 

 

So, sorry. I can't buy your initial post, current bolded portion (for a multiplicity of reasons). No biggie though.

[panthers55]

Thanks for your response.

 

I'm not trying to be rude. But sorry, end of discussion here with that comment (the bolded portion), as a source/reference. It doesn't give you much leg to stand on.  

 

I haven't read or heard (via rumor, players, Carolina Media, or the coaching that staff), that Cam was pointed out as the culprit on offense. However, I've heard many allude to Chud being the one hindering the Panther offense last year. 

 

Chud did have a big play book, and Cam played with out a wrist band (where most don't). If anything, Cam should be applauded for that, especially as a rookie, in a strike shortened season. And let's even say what you're saying is true: How many players (mind you rookies) would learn Chud's notoriously voluminous playbook in a strike shortened season, especially with out wristbands? You do realize, there's a reason, why all those NFL QB's (including top QB's) wear wristbands?

 

Speaking about Simplification: Remember, RG3 'struggled' in training camp, and many observers felt that Cousins was the better QB in Camp. Guess what? The Redskins SIMPLIFIED the offense (way more so than the Panthers have ever done for Cam, I may add), and RG3 is now a Cover Boy, Media Darling. Do Redskin fans or anyone else, ever talk about that? Of course not. You can also say the same was done for Russel Wilson, at the beginning of the season, and Colin Kaepernick his first season in a half (being spoon fed, though Wilson did beat out Matt Moore in Camp, as they weren't given much responsibility at first). But who's talking about that? You get where I'm going with this (in a multiple of ways)?

 

Truth be told: Luck, Newton and Tannenhill (if you wanna include him), were the only top young/Rookie QB's the past two seasons that were NOT 'Managed' on their arrival. The rest absolutely were. 

 

And to even insinuate (though your doing it via unquoted, referenced third and 4th parties) that Cam was some how a hindrance to Chud or slow in learning the offense, is thoroughly laughable, when Newton's the main reason why the offense actually clicks, can look scary in the first place (especially in comparison to the carefully managed seasons of a Dalton, RG3, Kaepernick, and even Wilson). How was the Panthers offense,  the year before Newton's arrival? I know you attempted some balance, later in your post. But I'm a little lost here. Cam is certainly not perfect. I'll be the first to admit that. Nonetheless, this argument sounds all to amusing, on a Panthers Forum no less (and feeds into the flippant media meme of Cam being Immature, not a hardworker and slow/dumb). 

 

Once again: Those quotes were by Rivera/Chud speaking about the Zone Read being eliminated (and reducing long passing pattern, due to the poor blocking), with unknowing or unscrupulous broadcasters running with it, providing their own interpretations in relation to Cam.  That's all it is, was. 

 

So, sorry. I can't buy your initial post, current bolded portion (for a multiplicity of reasons). No biggie though.

I understand that some folks here take offense anytime that newton is taken to task for anything and you obviously feel a need to apologize for him.  I take no offense and I was not accusing him of anything just adding to the conversation based on something said during the year. I was simply asking if this was a legitimate concern or more likely the complaint of a guy either fired or on the hot seat for the poor start.  Remember that I am just repeating what something else said not starting a rumor or making any insinuation.  But tell me how you know anything about the situation.  Are you in the media, in the front office or somehow given special privlege to the coaching staff or just going off what you have read or heard?  And no I am not referring to any quotes by Rivera, you brought that up not me.  I have no problem with you not buying my post but honestly I wasn't selling anything.

 

And btw, who exactly are you anyway?? If you have some special knowledge then share.  If not then stop acting like you have special knowledge the rest of us don't.... 

[koolkatluke]

It's not that hard to understand people. I swear some of you read more into a situation that is not that hard to understand.

 

If you had listen to 89 when he has been on the radio or other offensive players. You would know that CHUD WASN"T Listening to his position coaches. He was calling plays his OLine couldn't block for and fazing out the RB. The colabrative effort is a nice way to say Shula will listen to his position coaches and make game plan and play calls based on that. Not that their will be 5 OC making play calls.

 

JESUS CHRISt.

[FootballMaestro]

Yes, obviously. I think what i like about this season going forward is everyone seems to be on the same page. Rivera should have made sure they all were last year, but thats the feeling i get anyway for this year.

 

And this is all starting from the top with Gettleman.

 

Yes, I think even Rivera is smart enough to realize that Gettlemen is the REAL DEAL as a football guy, and will not put up with the Amateur/non-coaching nonsense Rivera put us all through (that I don't think most non panther fans could comprehend or believe), that handicapped the team Cam's first two years. 

 

I bet, you Rivera will either be more aggressive and/or make better decisions in 2013 (with Gettlemen's oversight and inputs), or he will be gone, if he doesn't. 

[CRA]

Yes, I think even Rivera is smart enough to realize that Gettlemen is the REAL DEAL as a football guy, and will not put up with the Amateur/non-coaching nonsense Rivera put us all through (that I don't think most non panther fans could comprehend or believe), that handicapped the team Cam's first two years.

I bet, you Rivera will either be more aggressive and/or make better decisions in 2013 (with Gettlemen's oversight and inputs), or he will be gone, if he doesn't.

What nonsense did he put us through?

Also, Rivera had a decent defensive roster from a starting perspective....most of his calls likely would have turned out better and appeared right.

Rivera has admitted to learning and growing

[FootballMaestro]

Very good point.  Maybe RIvera was not intending to slight his OC, he was simply stating that his OC would be a better listener.  HOWEVER, then your second point becomes more obvious.  Was he blaming Chud for last year's frustrations on offense--that he was not listening to others?  If that is the case, then he basically told the press that he was not regulating the offense--He trusted Chud and was stooooopid to do so.

 

Coming off 2011, the offense was sizzling and Cam was ROY.  The league adjusted to Cam and the offense, but Chud did not adjust to the league.  Rivera did not have veteran assistant coaches and did not have the knowledge about the offense to regulate adjustments. 

 

Believe it or not, it was the opposite. 

 

CHUD, actually adjusted to the league first, before anyone did anything else. That's what makes this (Chud, Rivera, and the offense in 2012), so crazy and perplexing. 

 

Rivera, admitted in a NFL.com article to Albert Breer (earlier this year), that Chud--in anticipation of NFL defenses in 2012, decided to make the Read Option the Preferred/Go to offense, despite the fact that Cam and the offense were so successful in more conventional (including under center), two tight end sets his rookie year. Can you believe that?

 

It was Cam's Rookie type offense, that the team actually fell back on (with the spineless/clueless Rivera in fear of losing his job, finally making a move), that the team utilized during the second half of the season. Remember that!

 

The 'Cam Adjustment' by NFL defenses is really a fallacy. Maybe that would have been true, if Chud didn't attempt to rely on the Read Option, and changing up the formations as he did? However, it was the older, more conventional sets--Cam had in his rookie year,  where he's seen most of his NFL success so far. That's what drives knowledgeable Panther fans and observers so crazy (especially with outside, wayward critics attacking Cam, having no idea Chud's, Rivera's input and complicity the first half of the season). 

[Dex]

oh hai gaiz what's going on in this thre.... oh.

[rayzor]

What nonsense did he put us through?

Also, Rivera had a decent defensive roster from a starting perspective....most of his calls likely would have turned out better and appeared right

good decision making in running any kind of team/organization is playing to your strengths...not what you wished or hope your strengths were.

 

he should have known his players limitations. either he didn't realize it (which is bad from an eval. pov) or decided to ignore their limitations. neither of these two scenarios are good management.

 

the offense was a strength. the better players were on offense. he put the game in the weaker defensive players hands. that's not a good call, imo.

 

there's no way he comes out looking competant. he trusted the wrong players.

 

aside from that, tho, i really don't like at all the idea of giving the other team the opportunity to score when the game is close and time is running out. it's not safe thinking at all. the safest place for the ball to be when you have the lead and there's any time left on the clock is in the hands of your offense, not in the hands of the other team's offense and your defense on the field.

 

[FootballMaestro]

I see this a negative on Rivera.  What you describe happens on various levels--there are not too many coordinators who do not seek input from everyone involved.  So, why go public and say this?  I think it hurts Shula's credibility for no reason.  Shula has a fairly experienced offensive staff and I am sure he will lean on them.

 

I want Shula to be getting endorsements and votes of confidence.  Although I do not see this as a deliberate attempt to discredit Shula, there is no need to make this statement, in my opinion.

 

I didn't read the article.

 

However, I think this was simply a reaction to Chud's alleged Heavy Hand in running the teams offense, not accepting too much input from the other position coaches. Rivera knows this. 

 

Outside of that; I don't think we can/should read too much into it. 

 

Shula, wasn't my choice either. But now that he's here, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's been said, Cam can make any OC look like a genius (as he's done in the past).

 

We'll see, this time, won't we? Lol