How will Mike Shula change our offense?

[Woodie]

his team struggled to put more than 2 TDs on the board per game.

 

2.

 

that team succeeded because and only because of that defense. they won in spite of an offense that couldn't put points on the board.

 

while shula was their OC they were held to under 2 TDs 24 times...within 4 years. they were held to less than 7 points 13 times. they were shut out completely 4 times.

 

'96...13.8 ppg on offense (30th...out of 30 teams)

'97...18.7ppg (23rd)

'98...19.6ppg (18th)

'99...16.9ppg (27th)

 

then he was fired.

 

what happened next?

in '00 scored 24.2ppg (6th)....with SHAUN KING as QB.

 

same HC.

 

what was the difference? why the sudden change in direction of offense? signs point to the guy that is now our OC.

 

I can't tell you what the difference was, but neither can you.  You're only guessing and making assumptions.  But Zod may have inadvertantly stuck a pin in your arguement by pointing out that it was the GM that stepped in to fire Shula, not Dungy.  So that leads to two logical assumptions, 1) that Shula was only doing what Dungy wanted, so Tony was fine keeping him as his OC, which strongly points to the fact that it was more of a Dungy offense with Shula only following orders and 2) that with the Shula firing Dungy was also given a directive to make some changes to his offensive philosophy to make it more exciting for the fans and owners.

[pantherclaw]

I'm saying a good OC can take a first round WR and get something out of him.

first round receivers have a better bust rate than your predictions.

[rayzor]

It was predictable because they didn't have the talent to do anything but run the ball.  And the fact that the GM had to step in is a pretty good indicator that it wasn't so much Shula as Dungy dictating the offense.

 

With that said, I also feel that Shula probably wasn't ready to be an OC at that time, but I have a pretty good hunch that's why he got the job...Dungy wanted an OC that would do what he wanted, no questions asked.

 

And to be quite honest, it is silly to think that Shula hasn't learned anything since then to better prepare him to be an OC this time around.  But to be fair, we also don't know if he's learned enough to be what we want him to be, so it makes much more sense to take a wait and see approach as opposed to a sky is falling one until he has a chance to actually show it on the field.

like you said, it's not a matter of him not learning anything...it's a matter of if he's learned enough and if his ability to make good decisions quickly has improved enough for this team to go forward.

 

but this isn't a sky is falling thing. no one  is ensuring or even predicting failure...it's pointing out the likelihood of failure based on his only experiences at the job and the lack of success or even future opportunities to succeed. doubts are at least based on something. the faith people have in him is based on nothing at all other than wishful thinking that goes against his history of failure at tampa and alabama.

[TheRumGone]

I've figured out a way we can settle this....

 

[rayzor]

I can't tell you what the difference was, but neither can you.  You're only guessing and making assumptions.  But Zod may have inadvertantly stuck a pin in your arguement by pointing out that it was the GM that stepped in to fire Shula, not Dungy.  So that leads to two logical assumptions, 1) that Shula was only doing what Dungy wanted, so Tony was fine keeping him as his OC, which strongly points to the fact that it was more of a Dungy offense with Shula only following orders and 2) that with the Shula firing Dungy was also given a directive to make some changes to his offensive philosophy to make it more exciting for the fans and owners.

I'm failing to see how this makes a better case for shula. so the choice is either  he sucked or he was just a figurehead/puppet. neither option is attractive or a good selling point for a coach.

[csx]

like you said, it's not a matter of him not learning anything...it's a matter of if he's learned enough and if his ability to make good decisions quickly has improved enough for this team to go forward.

but this isn't a sky is falling thing. no one is ensuring or even predicting failure...it's pointing out the likelihood of failure based on his only experiences at the job and the lack of success or even future opportunities to succeed. doubts are at least based on something. the faith people have in him is based on nothing at all other than wishful thinking that goes against his history of failure at tampa and alabama.

Eh, you have been whining about him for hours, weeks, months?:)

[rayzor]

Eh, you have been whining about him for hours, weeks, months? :)

your point?

[teeray]

I understand the concerns with Shula. But, he will have a better QB, a different playbook, and a diffent game plan than he did 12 years ago. That makes it difficult to project what he will do this season.

I think it is folly to use his time in Tampa to project what type of OC he will be for Carolina

[rayzor]

I understand the concerns with Shula. But, he will have a better QB, a different playbook, and a diffent game plan than he did 12 years ago. That makes it difficult to project what he will do this season.

I think it is folly to use his time in Tampa to project what type of OC he will be for Carolina

what else other than wishful thinking is there to go on to project success? 

[panthers55]

hey, what's an argument without being a demeaning prick?

 

you made some decent points, but it seems like you're looking for a pissing contest and don't mind exaggerating a little to do it.

 

I've got honest concerns,  just like others, that he MIGHT suck....not will, but might suck based on the only history he has with the job. yeah, he should have gotten better. he should have become less predictable. he should have gotten better at making decisions. he should have gotten better at making quicker decisions and better adjustments, but is that being better going to be good enough? 

 

like i said before, i just wish we had hired someone better. i didn't like the idea of the hire when  it was just an idea and i didn't like it when it became official. I'm not going to like it just because it was the decision that was made. I'm not going to just blindly jump on board....i mean i might if this team had a better track record with coaches and showed it new how to be consistent winners, but that's not happening. the only thing that is going to change my mind is results. unfortunately i have to wait for that.  I'm not going to pretend to think any different and I'm not going to quit voicing my concerns when the subject comes up. if it's still a matter of discussion and up for debate, I'm going  to.

 

So how does my saying you are ridiculous for going on and on for months in a number of threads reaming Shula for what he did over a decade ago qualify as a pissing contest while you call me a demeaning prick. Seems you are the one wanting a pissing contest.  Who goes on and on scouring material from 12 or 13 years ago to somehow show that Shula is even remotely the same as he was then?  That kind of thinking with no remotely recent proof or evidence is chicken little thinking.  Sorry if it hurts but that is the truth.

 

Anyone should and can voice their concerns but you are way beyond that.  And yeah I am an expert on what constitutes paranoia and what is normal and what is over the top. 

[csx]

your point?

I'm drunk, yours? More eternal complaining

[teeray]

Also it should be pointed out that Shula's offensive statistics with Shaun King playing QB were very similar to his successor who also had King as his QB.  SO that should be taken into account when people talk about the offensive improvement from his last season to his successor's first season in Tampa.

 

BTW his successor that was so successful was fired after that first season with Tampa.

[Woodie]

like you said, it's not a matter of him not learning anything...it's a matter of if he's learned enough and if his ability to make good decisions quickly has improved enough for this team to go forward.

 

but this isn't a sky is falling thing. no one  is ensuring or even predicting failure...it's pointing out the likelihood of failure based on his only experiences at the job and the lack of success or even future opportunities to succeed. doubts are at least based on something. the faith people have in him is based on nothing at all other than wishful thinking that goes against his history of failure at tampa and alabama.

 

Honestly, I'm pretty neutral about my expectations for him.  He doesn't have a stellar history at the position, but common sense tells me that he should have learned quite a bit since his time in Tampa.  So I truly do not think we will see anything resembling the OC that Tampa fans had to suffer through.  I genuinely believe that those fans won't be able to recognize our offense at all this year.  With that said, different isn't always good, so I am reserving judgement until he has an opportunity to show us on the field that he was the right man for the job.

[teeray]

what else other than wishful thinking is there to go on to project success? 

 

Perhaps the past production of our current offensive roster. 

 

That is more likely to resemble what we will accomplish than a coaching stint with different players, different playbook, different scheme, and different game planning 12 years ago.