Kawann Short

[Toundra]

Sean Gilbert was a fist rounder, Smitty a third..

You fail to see what you want to fail to see.. well something like that.

[Dash Global]

you watch what you want to watch and see what you want to see just so you don't have to actually notice anything that challenges your preconception.

there's a reason why he's slipped as he has and it isn't just people jumping on what they've heard. he's inconsistent in his effort throughout games compared to others at the top of his position. he's got tons of ability, but it's not seen consistently enough. people just don't see enough consistency throughout each game to know that aside from a couple big stat fluffing plays a game if he's going to put enough constant pressure on the backfield to help the defense stop the offense from moving down the field and into the endzone.

i can't make you see what you don't want to see that everyone else watching sees....he's not consistent and the question is why and what can be done to help him be consistent.

he's capable of doing some great highlight reel looking things, which he does. he's just not that guy that is going to wear out offenses. others around him do the work all game and then he takes advantage of small and infrequent windows of opportunities OLs give him. thats the long and short of short.

agree with it or not, but that's why he's sliding. he's a buyers beware type player.

I see exactly what is happening.

Take that vid the other poster posted. I see tackles for loss, driving OG back, generating pressure, sacks, getting double teamed.

Like I said, find me a game i can view online where his is "inconsistent" anymore than any other DT in this draft is.

[rayzor]

I see exactly what is happening.

Take that vid the other poster posted. I see tackles for loss, driving OG back, generating pressure, sacks, getting double teamed.

Like I said, find me a game i can view online where his is "inconsistent" anymore than any other DT in this draft is.

i saw that other game. i saw what i see every time. a few minutes of being a stud and the rest of the time being just another guy on the field.

i provided a clip, you watched only one minute of it. i fail to see how providing more examples would matter since you've obviously decided that you aren't going to see anything except what you want to see. kind of the whole "you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

with the quality of DTs in this draft, teams are looking for more than a guy who puts up crazy stats because of a handful of plays a game while being just another fat guy on the field the rest of the time.

i mean i would take him in the 3rd round (if we had one) maybe, but at #44...there's better choices this year, imo. teams that pass him up a couple times won't be bothered.

given a choice between short and jesse williams, i'm going to take jesse williams, stats be damned. i see in him a guy that keeps on pushing back the OLine every down and that won't be pushed back i see consistent pressure on the backfield. with short i see a guy who is dangerous in spurts, but who just as or more often gets pushed around.

[BigBeezy]

Yeah I agree with Dash and Toundra I think Short was pretty impressive, if not dominant, in that Illinois game, especially in the 4th quarter. He played the run and pass well in that game and consistently beat #73 1-on-1.

Truth of the matter is, though, the knock on Short is justified as he did take plays off and he even admitted as much as to scouts in interviews. He also stated that a lot of it had to do with the amount of plays he was playing at 320 lbs. while at Purdue, something like 75 plays per game, and has since dropped down to about 300 lbs.

Short has top 10 ability and would probably be in the discussion for 1st DL selected if it wasn't for the aforementioned concerns. There's a strong chance he'll still go in the 1st but if he is still there @ 44, he'd be a real steal.

[rayzor]

Yeah I agree with Dash and Toundra I think Short was pretty impressive, if not dominant, in that Illinois game, especially in the 4th quarter. He played the run and pass well in that game and consistently beat #73 1-on-1.

Truth of the matter is, though, the knock on Short is justified as he did take plays off and he even admitted as much as to scouts in interviews. He also stated that a lot of it had to do with the amount of plays he was playing at 320 lbs. while at Purdue, something like 75 plays per game, and has since dropped down to about 300 lbs.

Short has top 10 ability and would probably be in the discussion for 1st DL selected if it wasn't for the aforementioned concerns. There's a strong chance he'll still go in the 1st but if he is still there @ 44, he'd be a real steal.

you see if that is truly all it is and it's under control, i'm fine. like i said, people just don't know what they are going to going to get with him and that's been the problem. like you said, the knock has been justified and earned because he isn't consistent. he's a risky bet even if in the second round because you haven't seen the consistency that's been there and i'm not going to discuss anymore that angle because either you see the lack of consistency that most people do, or you don't.

but here's another concern about that reason given about dropping that weight. what's going to stop him from gaining that weight back once he's not trying to get drafted? we've seen what he looks like with that weight on and he's only going to be getting heavier (that's just the life of a fat guy). are we going to see that again? the chances are likely that we will (or whoever drafts him). his weight isn't stabilized. it's just another angle on the uncertainty that comes with this guy.

he could be a guy who keeps his weight under control and who gives consistent effort all game every game in which case he could be a perinnial all-pro. or he could put the weight back on and/or continue to be that guy who can make big plays happen a couple times a game but who you're going to have to rotate in with other guys to get better and more consistent pressure.

[BigBeezy]

you see if that is truly all it is and it's under control, i'm fine. like i said, people just don't know what they are going to going to get with him and that's been the problem. like you said, the knock has been justified and earned because he isn't consistent. he's a risky bet even if in the second round because you haven't seen the consistency that's been there and i'm not going to discuss anymore that angle because either you see the lack of consistency that most people do, or you don't.

but here's another concern about that reason given about dropping that weight. what's going to stop him from gaining that weight back once he's not trying to get drafted? we've seen what he looks like with that weight on and he's only going to be getting heavier (that's just the life of a fat guy). are we going to see that again? the chances are likely that we will (or whoever drafts him). his weight isn't stabilized. it's just another angle on the uncertainty that comes with this guy.

he could be a guy who keeps his weight under control and who gives consistent effort all game every game in which case he could be a perinnial all-pro. or he could put the weight back on and/or continue to be that guy who can make big plays happen a couple times a game but who you're going to have to rotate in with other guys to get better and more consistent pressure.

I'm not sure him being overweight or controlling it was necessarily the issue, per se, but rather the number of plays he was playing at times. 75 plays in a game, without ever really coming off the field on defense, is a lot for any DL much less a DT but I understand your concerns.

Will these concerns be an issue going forward? No one really knows but I think that's why the pre-draft process i.e. interviews, visits, talking to coaches, is important to see what type of person he is. If you're confident that it won't be an issue for him then I say take him because the talent and production, despite taking plays off, are there.

I will say this, at least he recognized the issue and has attempted to correct it.

[rayzor]

I'm not sure him being overweight or controlling it was necessarily the issue, per se, but rather the number of plays he was playing at times. 75 plays in a game, without ever really coming off the field on defense, is a lot for any DL much less a DT but I understand your concerns.

Will these concerns be an issue going forward? No one really knows but I think that's why the pre-draft process i.e. interviews, visits, talking to coaches, is important to see what type of person he is. If you're confident that it won't be an issue for him then I say take him because the talent and production, despite taking plays off, are there.

I will say this, at least he recognized the issue and has attempted to correct it.

he has to be able to stay on the field that long and it's only going to get worse in the pros with a longer schedule, otherwise he's just a situational player and you have to ask, how much better off would we be having someone that can handle the work load rather than someone who can't?

maybe he has recognized it and tried to change it, but what if he can't?

these are all questions you have to ask of a guy who is known well to have consistency and motor problems.

[Dash Global]

Rayzor I asked you to provide a game I could watch where Short was less than stellar, more so so any other of the top DL.

You linked a vid in which he was absolutely beastly for pretty much the entire game which myself and 2 other posters pointed out. Did you just blindly pick that game?!? lol You obviously didnt watch it or you dont know what constitutes great qualities for a DL/UT. (double teams, TFL, sacks, tackles, pressure on the qb, anchoring your gap etc)

So I am asking you again, provide some vid of both Short and Floyd I can watch and break down. (u can pick any games you want as I am positive there wont be one where Floyd clearly out performs Short)

[Toundra]

No need to argue more, next season we will see what Short worth as a Panthers or not.

[rayzor]

Rayzor I asked you to provide a game I could watch where Short was less than stellar, more so so any other of the top DL.

You linked a vid in which he was absolutely beastly for pretty much the entire game which myself and 2 other posters pointed out. Did you just blindly pick that game?!? lol You obviously didnt watch it or you dont know what constitutes great qualities for a DL/UT. (double teams, TFL, sacks, tackles, pressure on the qb, anchoring your gap etc)

So I am asking you again, provide some vid of both Short and Floyd I can watch and break down. (u can pick any games you want as I am positive there wont be one where Floyd clearly out performs Short)

lol....blindly picked? yes...it was picked at random. why? because it would be the easiest way out to just go and look for one or two of his worst games only to have you come back and say that i picked them just because they were bad. truthfully that was too much effort put into this discussion, esp. when you admitted to not even watching a minute of it. your mind was already closed so that told me that any more effort would be futile.

and I'm not going to put any more effort into this discussion with you because I'm discussing it with a wall. you aren't seeing what i see. you aren't seeing what the vast majority of draftniks and analysts have seen. you aren't seeing what nfl execs have seen. you aren't seeing what his coaches have admitted to seeing and discussing with him about. you aren't seeing what even he admitted to seeing when he looked at his own tape with his coaches and admitted as a problem at the combine.

you aren't seeing that lack of consistency because either you can't or you won't. that tells me that whatever games i link to or post aren't going to be viewed the same way.

now i admitted that if the problem was, as he stated, his weight combined with the number of downs he was playing, then he may not be, as he described himself, a "sometimes guy" and might be worth the pick because when he's on, he's spectacular.

the problem is, you don't see the problem...and yes, it's worse than others ranked higher which is why it has been brought up so much. you want to prove he's not more inconsistent than others in his effort, go ahead. the burden is on you and if you have the time or think it's impkrtant enough to you to be right and prove me, the draftniks/analysts, nfl execs, his coaches, and even short himself wrong, then have at it. i'm fine and truly happy walking away from the discussion though, because i know that 1) most have reached the same conclusions i have and 2) really don't care all that much. if you want to take this as me running away from the discussion and a win for you or whatever, but the reality of the situation is that you are essentially alone (or in very small company) on an island with this thought that he isn't inconsistent.

either way...i'm out.

cheers.

[Dash Global]

dude i asked you to post a vid showing his "consistency" issue. there is plenty of games of him online. i said you can pick ANY game, i dont care. i want you to pick his bad one so I can see what it is ur talking about.

the vid you posted as of him absolutely dominant.

you are the one claiming his has these issues. i asked you to provide a game / video i can watch to see them.

i think he is a beast and can provide plenty of games of him wrecking havoc on the oline.

the notion that i cant / wont see his problems is absurd and only a scape goat for you to wiesel out of backing up your claims.

post a vid and ill break down every snap and come back with a detailed sentence of what happens on every snap.

[Toundra]

he is an UT, we have alot more pressing needs than a UT.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA !! :P ;-)

[KARASMATIC444]

you guys did a good job on this one