Lame Duck Situation....

[panthers55]

So if Lame Duck as a term is defined as a condition where the coach is guaranteed to not come back, then you're quite correct. However, if that's the case, then John Fox wasn't a lame duck either, because had he gone 11-5 and into the playoffs, he would have been rewarded with a new contract.

Rivera was prevented by management from giving anyone more than a one year contract. Rivera knows that he's gone if we either don't have a winning season or something totally bizarre happens that explains away the losses. And that's not a secret, everyone and his brother knows it. The locker room considers him a guy who doesn't have any more time to build a winner, and as a guy who's gone if he doesn't win.

The only reason he has an extra year on his contract is because the original was for four years. He's certainly not being treated like a coach who has more than one year left, and that's why everyone is pointing at him and saying "Lame duck". Because if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and makes excuses like a duck, well you know the rest... :)

All of what you say is your speculation. Has Richardson said that unless Rivera goes to the playoffs that he will be replaced? Has Richardson said that we aren't going to give coaches more than a 1 year deal?? Most of the current coaches have deals beyond this year like Shula. Here is an article where Rivera says he has not gotten a win or else ultimatum. http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/03/20/3297718/no-win-or-else-ultimatum-for-panthers.html I have also have not heard what Jim Skipper's contract is for in duration. Where is the link which discusses the term. The reality is that some folks have speculated what is going to happen but up to this point it is rumor. People who are pointing to him and saying lame duck and just repeating what someone else said, none of whom are tied to the Panthers. If one guy jumps off the bridge will you do the same just because........ you know the rest...............

[Stroupe-a-loop]

So if Lame Duck as a term is defined as a condition where the coach is guaranteed to not come back, then you're quite correct. However, if that's the case, then John Fox wasn't a lame duck either, because had he gone 11-5 and into the playoffs, he would have been rewarded with a new contract.

Rivera was prevented by management from giving anyone more than a one year contract. Rivera knows that he's gone if we either don't have a winning season or something totally bizarre happens that explains away the losses. And that's not a secret, everyone and his brother knows it. The locker room considers him a guy who doesn't have any more time to build a winner, and as a guy who's gone if he doesn't win.

The only reason he has an extra year on his contract is because the original was for four years. He's certainly not being treated like a coach who has more than one year left, and that's why everyone is pointing at him and saying "Lame duck". Because if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and makes excuses like a duck, well you know the rest... :)

This is the best response in this thread. Sure, he may not BE a lame duck by some people's limited definitions, but management is certainly acting like he's one.

I think a lot of people felt like Fox wasn't coming back no matter what. If we had made the playoffs or not, he was gone. He didn't like ownership and they didn't like him by the end.

Rivera wants to be back, and ownership gave him one last chance to win those close games and fufill the promise that's been around this team the last 2 years. I think they didn't want to commit to guys that might not be here. Which is kind of stupid to me, but then again Rivera needs to prove that he is worth keeping, not the assistants.

[Lumps]

All of what you say is your speculation. Has Richardson said that unless Rivera goes to the playoffs that he will be replaced? Has Richardson said that we aren't going to give coaches more than a 1 year deal?? Most of the current coaches have deals beyond this year like Shula. Here is an article where Rivera says he has not gotten a win or else ultimatum. http://www.miamihera...r-panthers.html I have also have not heard what Jim Skipper's contract is for in duration. Where is the link which discusses the term. The reality is that some folks have speculated what is going to happen but up to this point it is rumor. People who are pointing to him and saying lame duck and just repeating what someone else said, none of whom are tied to the Panthers. If one guy jumps off the bridge will you do the same just because........ you know the rest...............

Richardson isn't going to say anything, period. Any side you want to take on this is speculation.

[Cyberjag]

All of what you say is your speculation. Has Richardson said that unless Rivera goes to the playoffs that he will be replaced? Has Richardson said that we aren't going to give coaches more than a 1 year deal?? Most of the current coaches have deals beyond this year like Shula. Here is an article where Rivera says he has not gotten a win or else ultimatum. http://www.miamihera...r-panthers.html I have also have not heard what Jim Skipper's contract is for in duration. Where is the link which discusses the term. The reality is that some folks have speculated what is going to happen but up to this point it is rumor. People who are pointing to him and saying lame duck and just repeating what someone else said, none of whom are tied to the Panthers. If one guy jumps off the bridge will you do the same just because........ you know the rest...............

Of course it's speculation. And by definition, that's a guess. And we're both engaged in it, because this franchise never shows it's cards. I can turn the foundation of your argument right back on you--has Richardson ever said that Rivera was definitively the coach in 2014? No? Well then, by the "has it ever been said" logic there's actual evidence that Rivera is in a lame duck situation. Unless, of course, you tightly define the term Lame Duck to suit your argument.

Point is, his job is in danger to the point where people know he won't be back unless he wins. That may be speculation, but it's about as safe a speculation as you can find. There were several comments made about a decision on Rivera coming back in November/December, and I think some were from Rivera himself. And there were comments made about him saving his job by winning all of those games late. If he did save his job, then I think it's fairly safe to speculate that another losing season will not be tolerated.

If Rivera goes 7-9 or 8-8, what odds do you place on him being here in 2014? Assuming Newton stays healthy, do you think there's any way he will be back?

Toss out the label, Lame Duck, and tell me instead what shows you that the current Management has made a commitment to Rivera that extends past 2013.

[top dawg]

Richardson isn't going to say anything, period. Any side you want to take on this is speculation.

It's not about taking a side. It's about having an open mind, being objective, and actually letting the season play itself out before coming to conclusions.

Furthermore, Richardson obviously wanted to give Rivera another chance, and has not seen enough to fire the man. Why would he bring the man back---to the extent that he even "forced" him on G-Man---only to let him float half-assed through the wind? It's not logical nor good for your football team ( if you would do this), nor is it prudent for an old owner with a history of heart troubles. Don't say it's the money, because Richardson has the money. To me the whole lame duck situation is preposterous, even from G-man's point of view. I am taking G-man at his word. He doesn't strike me as the kind to bullshit. Rivera's success is best for all parties involved.

[panthers55]

Of course it's speculation. And by definition, that's a guess. And we're both engaged in it, because this franchise never shows it's cards. I can turn the foundation of your argument right back on you--has Richardson ever said that Rivera was definitively the coach in 2014? No? Well then, by the "has it ever been said" logic there's actual evidence that Rivera is in a lame duck situation. Unless, of course, you tightly define the term Lame Duck to suit your argument.

Point is, his job is in danger to the point where people know he won't be back unless he wins. That may be speculation, but it's about as safe a speculation as you can find. There were several comments made about a decision on Rivera coming back in November/December, and I think some were from Rivera himself. And there were comments made about him saving his job by winning all of those games late. If he did save his job, then I think it's fairly safe to speculate that another losing season will not be tolerated.

If Rivera goes 7-9 or 8-8, what odds do you place on him being here in 2014? Assuming Newton stays healthy, do you think there's any way he will be back?

Toss out the label, Lame Duck, and tell me instead what shows you that the current Management has made a commitment to Rivera that extends past 2013.

Actually the logic doesn't work both ways because he is the coach of the Panthers and his contract runs through 2014 so until he is replaced he is the coach until further notice. And again to say that he won't be back unless he wins could be said of half the coaches in the league. If your definition of a lame duck coach is that he has been called out and may be replaced unless he wins, then half the league coaches are lame duck coaches which is stupid logic at best. Do I think Rivera comes back unless we have a winning season, probably not but again he is hardly alone in that. Has Richardson made a commitment to Rivera beyond 2013? How would I know what they discuss behind closed doors. What I do know is that unless they make a chance he will be the coach this year and I think that contrary to the original statements, he will be given the tools to win this year. I don't think he is a placeholder or just there until Gettleman can find his replacement. I know that Richardson gave him a vote of confidence after last year. Exactly what was said or expected, I wasn't privy to. Were you?? Now if you want to speculate saying I have no information and nothing said anywhere, but I think he has to win this year or be gone and that makes him a lame duck coach, feel free to speculate away. I just don't know why anyone with a modicum of intelligence or credibility would do that.........

[Cyberjag]

Actually the logic doesn't work both ways because he is the coach of the Panthers and his contract runs through 2014 so until he is replaced he is the coach until further notice. And again to say that he won't be back unless he wins could be said of half the coaches in the league. If your definition of a lame duck coach is that he has been called out and may be replaced unless he wins, then half the league coaches are lame duck coaches which is stupid logic at best. Do I think Rivera comes back unless we have a winning season, probably not but again he is hardly alone in that. Has Richardson made a commitment to Rivera beyond 2013? How would I know what they discuss behind closed doors. What I do know is that unless they make a chance he will be the coach this year and I think that contrary to the original statements, he will be given the tools to win this year. I don't think he is a placeholder or just there until Gettleman can find his replacement. I know that Richardson gave him a vote of confidence after last year. Exactly what was said or expected, I wasn't privy to. Were you?? Now if you want to speculate saying I have no information and nothing said anywhere, but I think he has to win this year or be gone and that makes him a lame duck coach, feel free to speculate away. I just don't know why anyone with a modicum of intelligence or credibility would do that.........

In other words, you're speculating, but you agree that he won't be back if he doesn't win. But there's no way he's a lame duck because he has a contract, so he's pretty much guaranteed two years? Is that your position? I think you really wrote that in a hurry, so I don't want to read anything into it.

I guess it gets down to what you think lame duck means, versus what everyone else thinks it means. At any rate, we all agree that he wins next year or he's done. Call that what you will. :)

*edit* Actually, help me out here. How would YOU define lame duck status? And what would you expect from Management regarding player signings and assistant contracts in a lame duck situation? Let's get on the same page.

[Frizzy350]

Uhhhh the whole lame duck term got completely blown out of proportion. Two entirely different scenarios.

There was a lockout looming, Fox's methods were too archaic for sustained success in this league, we needed a franchise quarterback and the franchise just needed to be nuked and paved.

Rivera was given a total trash team with a few young core players and a few good drafts picks and has improved the team drastically. The biggest difference isn't in the win column, its how well we compete with many top tier teams. If we improve again I don't see how we could consider parting with Rivera, getting better is really all you can ask for in this league.

[rayzor]

he's not a lame duck because he's still under contract for another couple years.

if they don't fire him and he continues to lose then the last year of his contract he will probably be a lame duck.

fox was a lame duck because it was the last year of his agreed upon contract...not employment. the two are different things. last year of agreed upon contract may mean last year of employment, but last year of employment may not mean last year of agreed upon contract.

just like with a president. in the second term of a presidency, he can be considered a lame duck because there's no possible way he can go for another term. he's officially done after that second term.

for a coaching job, if the coach is in the last period of his contractual agreement and there's no chance of him being offered a new contract, like was the case with fox after he failed to meet richardson's requirements of back to back winning seasons, then he is a lame duck.

the notion/fact that he'll be fired if he doesn't have a winning season doesn't make him a lame duck. fox wasn't a lame duck in '09 when he still had a chance to pull off back to back winning seasons. he was a lame duck in '10 when he failed to do that.

[CRA]

All of what you say is your speculation. Has Richardson said that unless Rivera goes to the playoffs that he will be replaced? Has Richardson said that we aren't going to give coaches more than a 1 year deal?? Most of the current coaches have deals beyond this year like Shula. Here is an article where Rivera says he has not gotten a win or else ultimatum. http://www.miamihera...r-panthers.html I have also have not heard what Jim Skipper's contract is for in duration. Where is the link which discusses the term. The reality is that some folks have speculated what is going to happen but up to this point it is rumor. People who are pointing to him and saying lame duck and just repeating what someone else said, none of whom are tied to the Panthers. If one guy jumps off the bridge will you do the same just because........ you know the rest...............

Ron has made it clear....his leash is about as short as it gets.

Common sense 101 and past history shows when the leash gets that short.....Jerry Richardson's handicaps his coach and limits the type coaches/players a HC can bring in. Richardson is black and white. Richardson has shown what he does when he has a coach in Ron's current situation. So yeah, it is speculation...based on the manner Jerry Richardson has PROVEN to operate.

[CRA]

he's not a lame duck because he's still under contract for another couple years.

if they don't fire him and he continues to lose then the last year of his contract he will probably be a lame duck.

fox was a lame duck because it was the last year of his agreed upon contract...not employment. the two are different things. last year of agreed upon contract may mean last year of employment, but last year of employment may not mean last year of agreed upon contract.

just like with a president. in the second term of a presidency, he can be considered a lame duck because there's no possible way he can go for another term. he's officially done after that second term.

for a coaching job, if the coach is in the last period of his contractual agreement and there's no chance of him being offered a new contract, like was the case with fox after he failed to meet richardson's requirements of back to back winning seasons, then he is a lame duck.

the notion/fact that he'll be fired if he doesn't have a winning season doesn't make him a lame duck. fox wasn't a lame duck in '09 when he still had a chance to pull off back to back winning seasons. he was a lame duck in '10 when he failed to do that.

John Fox was in a win or be fired window with 2 years left on his contract....had to win with what he had + only draft picks and bargain basement FAs.

All comes down to people viewing the term lameduck different....

2013 for Rivera is what 2009 was for Fox....

[rayzor]

John Fox was in a win or be fired window with 2 years left on his contract....had to win with what he had + only draft picks and bargain basement FAs.

All comes down to people viewing the term lameduck different....

2013 for Rivera is what 2009 was for Fox....

after the '08 winning season and humiliating loss fox was given the ultimatum to win back to back winning seasons or richardson would rebuild...and that was taken to mean that fox wouldn't have his contract renewed. not fired. just not rehired, which was the case. he wasn't fired. they let his contract run out because the FO and richardson didn't think fox would let it get too bad. he did and it was.

fox's future with the team wasn't decided in 2010. it was decided after the 2009 season and he was allowed to remain and complete his contract with the team.

if rivera and fox are in the same boat as in 2013 is rivera's 2009 season with the same result, and rivera was allowed to finish out his contract then the last year of rivera's contract would be his lame duck year, not 2013.

if you have a chance at keeping your job, then you aren't a lame duck. once your future is decided upon, then you can be called that.

if at some point this year it's decided that fox will be let go, then from that point on he would be considered a lame duck. if rivera gives up at any point then he would also then be a lame duck. while he has a chance he's not a lame duck.

[CRA]

after the '08 winning season and humiliating loss fox was given the ultimatum to win back to back winning seasons or richardson would rebuild...and that was taken to mean that fox wouldn't have his contract renewed. not fired. just not rehired, which was the case. he wasn't fired. they let his contract run out because the FO and richardson didn't think fox would let it get too bad. he did and it was.

fox's future with the team wasn't decided in 2010. it was decided after the 2009 season and he was allowed to remain and complete his contract with the team.

if rivera and fox are in the same boat as in 2013 is rivera's 2009 season with the same result, and rivera was allowed to finish out his contract then the last year of rivera's contract would be his lame duck year, not 2013.

if you have a chance at keeping your job, then you aren't a lame duck. once your future is decided upon, then you can be called that.

if at some point this year it's decided that fox will be let go, then from that point on he would be considered a lame duck. if rivera gives up at any point then he would also then be a lame duck. while he has a chance he's not a lame duck.

Fox's fate was decided b/c of the 2009 season....just like Rivera's will be b/c of the 2013 season.

again, people use lameduck different...I don't care to debate what it means. The sentence above is what I firmly believe. Fox was just a warm body in 2010...what occured didn't matter to Jerry.

Rivera doesn't win....they likely could give him a Fox 2010 season simply b/c Jerry is cheap. Jerry will then have the new GM start legitimately cleaning up the mess Hurney left after prepping a more clean canvas to give a new coach a real shot.

[Snake]

Honestly Rivera showed some promise after Hurney was fired and the Players knew they had to play. Give Rivera the right players I think he can be successful, how much success I'm not sure.