Hurney, the worst contract negotiator of all time? Panthers in worse cap shape in 2014

[Gin and Juice]

And I'm not trying to be argumentive.......I'm trying to understand this fully

[thunderraiden]

actual money=signing bonus? Correct? They are guaranteed that once they sign the contract! Everything else is based upon being on the team and /or performance. If we cut a player, then we are still charged his remaining signing bonus, how much is still determined by when we cut him, correct?

Using Dwill, if we cut him.......then we still owe him what's left of his signing bonus, but we are off the hook for base salary! So, then Dwill signs with another team and will be paid by that team while getting the remaining portion of his signing bonus here. Right?

Now, I would prefer to use Beason as an example. Someone explain how we could have him restructure without taking an actual/guaranteed and base salary cut while making his deal cap friendly?

Except no one is signing d-will to a monster contract. Most good teams have a younger replacement in place and they wouldnt be going after him. Plus you have d-will moving, his fam who has put roots here leaving, d-will going to a shitty team. Basically everything ppl hate about the unknown. Then you have the fact we paid him boatloads already and now he can either help us that overpaid him or face the unknown and get paid much less for nothing but a shitty finish to his career, where he might last a season before getting replaced by a third round pick and cut.

[CRA]

Good job missing the point.

I didn't miss your point....of course what happens this offseason impacts the 2014 cap.

My point is only the new GM is going to look at how players impact more than the 2013 cap....therefore you can't tell people they shouldn't talk about 2014

[CRA]

actual money=signing bonus? Correct? They are guaranteed that once they sign the contract! Everything else is based upon being on the team and /or performance. If we cut a player, then we are still charged his remaining signing bonus, how much is still determined by when we cut him, correct?

Using Dwill, if we cut him.......then we still owe him what's left of his signing bonus, but we are off the hook for base salary! So, then Dwill signs with another team and will be paid by that team while getting the remaining portion of his signing bonus here. Right?

Now, I would prefer to use Beason as an example. Someone explain how we could have him restructure without taking an actual/guaranteed and base salary cut while making his deal cap friendly?

He would take a base salary cut which is how you lower his cap impact.

Issue is with an injury plagued guy is the upfront cash you give him....with the big dollars we are dealing with he would be a disaster cap wise if we had to turn around and cut him bc Beason couldn't comeback to old form

[Floppin]

I didn't miss your point....of course what happens this offseason impacts the 2014 cap.

My point is only the new GM is going to look at how players impact more than the 2013 cap

well duhshit

....therefore you can't tell people they shouldn't talk about 2014

Well sure they can, but the argument is going to mean fugall. We have no idea what moves are going to be made in the next few months, let a lone next off season that will affect that cap figure. There are cap maneuvers every year and cap totals remain a fluid number by nature of the industry. Looking at figures two years in advance and going "OMG WE"RE GOING TO BE 600MILLION OVER THE CAP IN 2045" is fuging stupid.

[Stroupe-a-loop]

actual money=signing bonus? Correct? They are guaranteed that once they sign the contract! Everything else is based upon being on the team and /or performance. If we cut a player, then we are still charged his remaining signing bonus, how much is still determined by when we cut him, correct?

Using Dwill, if we cut him.......then we still owe him what's left of his signing bonus, but we are off the hook for base salary! So, then Dwill signs with another team and will be paid by that team while getting the remaining portion of his signing bonus here. Right?

Now, I would prefer to use Beason as an example. Someone explain how we could have him restructure without taking an actual/guaranteed and base salary cut while making his deal cap friendly?

More or less. Yes the signing bonus is fully guaranteed upon the signing of the contract, so if the guy is cut immediately, like what the Bengals did with Antonio Bryant a few years ago, he keeps the bonus. The non-guaranteed portion is there as long as the team doesn't terminate the contract.

Now a lot of contracts have what is called "offset language". Meaning if the player takes another contract after getting cut, the team doesn't have to pay them the remainder of the bonus money (the cap hit still takes place. We are just talking about actual, physical money) that the new contract covers. So that makes it harder for players to "double dip" like you were talking about. Plus free agency being what it is, I'm guessing a player would like to keep money in hand rather than try to go get another contract a majority of the time.

Now for Beason, the team would ask him to renegotiate the cap figure with some incentives put into the contract like Thomas Davis had. Beason has only gotten 10 million actual dollars of his contract right now. So the team could make him a June first cut and spread the cap hit over two seasons and still get a little cap relief. While Beason has basically lost 23 million dollars in the transaction, and the team is slightly better off cap wise. Advantage team.

But with a renegotiation, he'll turn down a few million, guarantee a few more of the non guaranteed money later on, and earn all of his non-guaranteed money for this season. If everything works out and he comes back healthy, he could only loose the 4-5 million that he agrees to leave on the table instead of half the contract if he gets cut.

I'm sorry for that being wordy, but this is wordy stuff.

[Snake]

Bottom line, Hurney was one of the worst GMs in the NFL of the 2000's. He put us in cap hell, he gave out terrible contracts, he always passed over free agents that would help the team tremendously, we only had 3 winning seasons out of 11 years. Pathetic. He is a big part of the loser mentality that surrounds the Panthers. He's gone and good riddance. People defending him are just showing how very little they are intact with reality. I believe in Gettleman though to pull us out of this mess and get us on track.

You also have.to figure that Hurney was put in a tight spot for two years because of JR though. If we would have not given CJ his money and it was a large sum ATL would have shached him away and we would have had no one at DE after the roster purge. This team was not only mismanaged by Hurney but also JR like its still being done. Rivera should have been gone the second we ended the season but we will wait till the end of this year to fire him and start all over again because of JR not doing what is needed.

[TheRumGone]

Marty Hurney was obviously coked up......

ALL

THE

TIME

[Gin and Juice]

Except no one is signing d-will to a monster contract. Most good teams have a younger replacement in place and they wouldnt be going after him. Plus you have d-will moving, his fam who has put roots here leaving, d-will going to a shitty team. Basically everything ppl hate about the unknown. Then you have the fact we paid him boatloads already and now he can either help us that overpaid him or face the unknown and get paid much less for nothing but a shitty finish to his career, where he might last a season before getting replaced by a third round pick and cut.

Now, I see your side of the argument! I really do, but let's put another possible Dwill perspective to it! Now he is due 5 mil this year in base/performance(the only way we could save being signing bonus is guaranteed). We ask him to flat out take a pay cut to 1.5 mil in base for the remainder of his contract. That saves us 3.5 this year, 4.5 next year, and 5.5 his final year. He is going to want something in return and with our cap situation the way it is, not really that much of a savings. Irony, he can make that or more with another team, plus get a signing bonus(guaranteed). And he can pick whichever of the teams that make him and offer. If I was him, I would say screw that cut in pay..........I'm gone

[Rubi]

Hurney Defense Force

[SCP]

Trading up for Armanti and Everette Brown sealed Hurney's standing with me. The post lockout spending spree was kind of icing on the cake.

[Gin and Juice]

More or less. Yes the signing bonus is fully guaranteed upon the signing of the contract, so if the guy is cut immediately, like what the Bengals did with Antonio Bryant a few years ago, he keeps the bonus. The non-guaranteed portion is there as long as the team doesn't terminate the contract.

Now a lot of contracts have what is called "offset language". Meaning if the player takes another contract after getting cut, the team doesn't have to pay them the remainder of the bonus money (the cap hit still takes place. We are just talking about actual, physical money) that the new contract covers. So that makes it harder for players to "double dip" like you were talking about. Plus free agency being what it is, I'm guessing a player would like to keep money in hand rather than try to go get another contract a majority of the time.

Now for Beason, the team would ask him to renegotiate the cap figure with some incentives put into the contract like Thomas Davis had. Beason has only gotten 10 million actual dollars of his contract right now. So the team could make him a June first cut and spread the cap hit over two seasons and still get a little cap relief. While Beason has basically lost 23 million dollars in the transaction, and the team is slightly better off cap wise. Advantage team.

But with a renegotiation, he'll turn down a few million, guarantee a few more of the non guaranteed money later on, and earn all of his non-guaranteed money for this season. If everything works out and he comes back healthy, he could only loose the 4-5 million that he agrees to leave on the table instead of half the contract if he gets cut.

I'm sorry for that being wordy, but this is wordy stuff.

Wordy is good! Now, the flip side to Beason. He knows he has the F.O. by the balls. They cut him and he walks away having collected almost 24 mil for a handful of games. Not sure if he has the "offset language", but thats a nice payday for walking away from the team that drafted you. The need for outstanding MLB's in this league is high, so we/he knows he will get another contract.

Cutting him offers no significant relief in the short term and letting him walk seems stupid. He will not be this teams MLB and 4-3 OLB's make less, so stay and agree to be an OLB? Or walk and retain a MLB spot on a team? If he truly feels he can comeback 100% and there is no "double-dipping" clause in his contract then it's in his best interest to force the Panthers hand to cut him.

[top dawg]

Trading up for Armanti and Everette Brown sealed Hurney's standing with me. The post lockout spending spree was kind of icing on the cake.

fug. man. that was a whole lotta icing. I can't stand cakes with too much icing.

[Kakarot]

Jeez, man. Our situation just gets worse and worse. Hurney was horrible, and I can't believe JR hired him in the first place, and then stuck with him for so long.