Gettleman not sold on read option

[teeray]

In the example you used, the flanker or the wide receiver is a third option but it is splitting hairs to say that he is not functioning as a running back in that scenario. And you would never run a triple option with 3 running backs because you have one back doing nothing. If you used all three and the quarterback it would a quadruple option. Since the quarterback does the reading you can't count on the excess running back to block or even go out for a pass since he doesn't know where the ball would go. For that matter you can have 5 running backs and not run the option at all. But why would you. The point of saying it is using 1 or 2 running backs is that 99% of the time the double or triple option is run with 1 or 2 running backs. I suppose you can spend time trying to figure out the other 1%.

If you read the links, it explains what we do, discusses everything you mentioned plus much more for those that care.

We are definitely splitting hairs here but...

The option is set up to block no matter what the QB decides. The third running back is generally used as a lead blocker. He can be used as a lead blocker inside or outside. That is predetermined before the play happens.

The most common place you will see it is on wishbone or flexbone formations. The QB will have an option with the FB. The tackle that is on the option side leaves the DE and blocks the second level as a lead blocker for the FB. The halfback on the option side is a lead blocker outside for the QB who also has an option to pitch to the other HB running with him.

The way you see three RBs in our triple option offense is in the fullhouse pistol formation. With Stewart and Tolbert right beside Cam and D-Will directly behind Cam. In that situation you could run the triple option with Tolbert as a lead blocker for Stewart on the first slant option and the ball side tackle still shoots to the second level to block the LBs to give the QB the edge if the DE collapses with D-Will running with him as the pitch option.

I think what you are trying to say that there are only two RBs that are the actual options in addition to the QB.

It is very common and used to be the norm that these plays were run from formations with 3 RBs in the backfield.

Edit: You edited your post. I think you were thinking the right thing, it just was worded wrong. We were definitely splitting hairs anyway LOL

[panthers55]

We are definitely splitting hairs here but...

The option is set up to block no matter what the QB decides. The third running back is generally used as a lead blocker. He can be used as a lead blocker inside or outside. That is predetermined before the play happens.

The most common place you will see it is on wishbone or flexbone formations. The QB will have an option with the FB. The tackle that is on the option side leaves the DE and blocks the second level as a lead blocker for the FB. The halfback on the option side is a lead blocker outside for the QB who also has an option to pitch to the other HB running with him.

The way you see three RBs in our triple option offense is in the fullhouse pistol formation. With Stewart and Tolbert right beside Cam and D-Will directly behind Cam. In that situation you could run the triple option with Tolbert as a lead blocker for Stewart on the first slant option and the ball side tackle still shoots to the second level to block the LBs to give the QB the edge if the DE collapses with D-Will running with him as the pitch option.

I think what you are trying to say that there are only two RBs that are the actual options in addition to the QB.

It is very common and used to be the norm that these plays were run from formations with 3 RBs in the backfield.

Edit: You edited your post. I think you were thinking the right thing, it just was worded wrong. We were definitely splitting hairs anyway LOL

Teeray, do you have a life or is this what you do for a living?? Of course you can have 3 running backs or 4 or 5 but lets be honest the problem with 4 guys in the backfield and 5 linemen is that you only have 2 guys who could act as a passing threat or even block like a TE does. Plus why would you send a lead blocker ahead of the dive option and not run the ball there? You have used 2 guys as decoys over the same gap which if you don't run there is a waste of personnel and makes you vulnerable to a blitzing corner or linebacker who is uncovered with no receiver or TE to that side and a defense that is overshifted or if you run there using the option after telegraphing it, you can expect linebackers to be there en mass. If you want to use a lead blocker you are much better off going with a power running scheme and bringing in an extra tight end or another receiver if you are going play action.

And seriously when was the last time you saw a Flex option or wishbone option in the pros??

You seem to have a desire to nitpick and spend time trying to account for the 1% of the time when what I said might not be true instead of the 99% when it is. Is this an attempt to show people you know football or an effort to be an argumentative contrarian.

[teeray]

Teeray, do you have a life or is this what you do for a living?? Of course you can have 3 running backs or 4 or 5 but lets be honest the problem with 4 guys in the backfield and 5 linemen is that you only have 2 guys who could act as a passing threat or even block like a TE does. Plus why would you send a lead blocker ahead of the dive option and not run the ball there? You have used 2 guys as decoys over the same gap which if you don't run there is a waste of personnel and makes you vulnerable to a blitzing corner or linebacker who is uncovered with no receiver or TE to that side and a defense that is overshifted or if you run there using the option after telegraphing it, you can expect linebackers to be there en mass. If you want to use a lead blocker you are much better off going with a power running scheme and bringing in an extra tight end or another receiver if you are going play action.

And seriously when was the last time you saw a Flex option or wishbone option in the pros??

You seem to have a desire to nitpick and spend time trying to account for the 1% of the time when what I said might not be true instead of the 99% when it is. Is this an attempt to show people you know football or an effort to be an argumentative contrarian.

I not trying to be argumentative or contrarian and I am no more trying to show that I know football than you are with your posts. i was just trying to get the info correct. I know my posts can get too wordy but I always try to explain myself thoroughly and they end up being too long. So sorry about that.

You can't have 4 RBs in the backfield because that is an illegal formation. You can only have a total of 4 players in the backfield and that includes the QB so you could only use 3 backs and a QB in the backfield.

You have a lead blocker on a dive option play even if you don't run there because on a read option, unless the blockers turn around and watch the QB and RB, they don't know which way the ball is going. The QB makes that determination with his read. And typically you don't even block the DE.

So the tackle becomes the lead blocker for the dive guy and we usually pull Olsen or Tobert who become the lead blocker for the outside. By not blocking the DE you are freeing the tackle of that responsibility that he would normally have so he goes straight to the second level. So you aren't losing any blockers you wouldn't typically have because you are not blocking a guy. You don't use a decoy in a read option, you read the DE that is unblocked. The point is to make the DE make a decision. Is he going to take the QB or the RB? That is what the QB is reading. If the DE stays outside to take the QB you hand it off, if the DE collapses to take the RB the QB keeps it.

That is a generic example and you can do several different things like pulling O-line as a lead blocker or not blocking a DT and reading the DT. But typically you have a lead blocker in the gap the RB may run in and a lead blocker for the QB. And the reason you can get away with it is because you are not blocking someone on the defense, and that unblocked player is the QBs key.

As far as whether you telegraph it or not and the defense over shifts, that is why you see college teams speed the tempo and audible so much from the sideline. The offense sets, makes the defense show their look, and then the offense audibles based on the defense or if they have the look they want initially they snap the ball quickly to take advantage.

That was my biggest complaint about how we have run our offense and especially the read option aspect of it. You can't run it for the sake of running it, it has to be when it is advantageous to do so. Us getting out of the Huddle with 15-12 seconds left on the play clock only gave us enough time to look over the defense, get your assignments, and snap the ball. In order for an offense like this to work to its full potential you HAVE to play at a faster pace and change plays at the line of scrimmage.

And lastly no I have no life :(. I make the majority of my money playing poker and betting sports, primarily football. I also do some work as a real estate broker. So I spend most of my time on the internet either playing cards, studying football, or studying the real estate market. I also just enjoy studying and researching QBs and basketball (the sport I actually played in college) just as a hobby.

[Marguide]

As an aside in this conversation, for those that think our offense didn't change all that much in the 2nd half of the year, I offer this observation...

I just finished watching the last 17 minutes of the Philly game, and the 1st half of the 2nd Atlanta game. In those 55+ plays (we dominated TOP in the Atlanta game), we ran the read option twice. That's right, twice.

Compare that to early in the season when we ran it 10 or 12 times a game.

[CRA]

Again Gore had 90 yards on 21 carries which was 4.2 yards per carry which is below what Atlanta surrendered all year long at 4.8 yards per carry and less than what Gore averaged all year at 4.7 yard per carry. His longest carry of the game was 11 yards and James was 15 yards. The fact that those runs occurred in the 3rd and fourth quarter made them look spectacular. Being abusing it what Williams did to New Orleans.

No, you don't need to go for 6 yards a pop and 200 yards to gash teams. Being consistant and effective is all that matters.....and SF after the 1st q became unstoppable. They consistantly got there yards on the ground bc of Atl overplaying the QB option.....which IMO ultimately lost them the game.

Same reasoning why Stewart is the preferred RB over Williams. Williams is more likely to get the homerun after many unimpressive runs...a healthy Stewart more likely to get the consistant 4 yard run each go.

[poorboysrev]

Stewart might be your preferred running back, to me he accelerates ALOT slower. Once we ran Deangelo with a FB, not out of shotgun, and gave him the ball more than 8 times a game he started running better. Yes the Saints game was against the Saints but he was powering thru tackles again. IFwe start the season with a better scheme, oline help, and an attitude/commitment to run the ball I think he can kill it.

Deangelo and either Stewart or Tolbert makes more sense than Stewart and Tolbert. Those 2 are the same running back. Tolbert can do everything Stewart can for alot cheaper. They are both good at the same things. Neither can do what Deangelo can. Deangelo, Smith, and Cam are our only breakaway threats on the whole team. We need more big play threats not less.

[unicar15]

guess what else exposes a QB to hits

STANDING IN THE POCKET LIKE A MFING STATUE

Good thing Cam has mobility...doesn't mean he has to have designed runs 10 times per game. Nobody is saying Cam shouldn't scramble.

[pstall]

The 49ers caught teams off guard with KP. I don't think that'll work too good against the Ravens. Next year teams will be more prepared for them just like they were for us, but I doubt the 49ers will use it as frequent as we did. I say let Cam be a pocket passer. Run the ball and some playaction and if Cam gets pressure or sees free yardage let him do what he does. Simple

Bingo

[CRA]

Stewart might be your preferred running back, to me he accelerates ALOT slower. Once we ran Deangelo with a FB, not out of shotgun, and gave him the ball more than 8 times a game he started running better. Yes the Saints game was against the Saints but he was powering thru tackles again. IFwe start the season with a better scheme, oline help, and an attitude/commitment to run the ball I think he can kill it.

Deangelo and either Stewart or Tolbert makes more sense than Stewart and Tolbert. Those 2 are the same running back. Tolbert can do everything Stewart can for alot cheaper. They are both good at the same things. Neither can do what Deangelo can. Deangelo, Smith, and Cam are our only breakaway threats on the whole team. We need more big play threats not less.

not my prefered RB nessecarily, but has been the preferred RB under Ron Rivera in both 2011 and 2012.

When healthy, Stewart and Tolbert are not the same back. Now, the question is if Stewart can ever go at something besides 90%.

[Guest BlueBoy]

I not trying to be argumentative or contrarian and I am no more trying to show that I know football than you are with your posts. i was just trying to get the info correct. I know my posts can get too wordy but I always try to explain myself thoroughly and they end up being too long. So sorry about that.

You can't have 4 RBs in the backfield because that is an illegal formation. You can only have a total of 4 players in the backfield and that includes the QB so you could only use 3 backs and a QB in the backfield.

You have a lead blocker on a dive option play even if you don't run there because on a read option, unless the blockers turn around and watch the QB and RB, they don't know which way the ball is going. The QB makes that determination with his read. And typically you don't even block the DE.

So the tackle becomes the lead blocker for the dive guy and we usually pull Olsen or Tobert who become the lead blocker for the outside. By not blocking the DE you are freeing the tackle of that responsibility that he would normally have so he goes straight to the second level. So you aren't losing any blockers you wouldn't typically have because you are not blocking a guy. You don't use a decoy in a read option, you read the DE that is unblocked. The point is to make the DE make a decision. Is he going to take the QB or the RB? That is what the QB is reading. If the DE stays outside to take the QB you hand it off, if the DE collapses to take the RB the QB keeps it.

That is a generic example and you can do several different things like pulling O-line as a lead blocker or not blocking a DT and reading the DT. But typically you have a lead blocker in the gap the RB may run in and a lead blocker for the QB. And the reason you can get away with it is because you are not blocking someone on the defense, and that unblocked player is the QBs key.

As far as whether you telegraph it or not and the defense over shifts, that is why you see college teams speed the tempo and audible so much from the sideline. The offense sets, makes the defense show their look, and then the offense audibles based on the defense or if they have the look they want initially they snap the ball quickly to take advantage.

That was my biggest complaint about how we have run our offense and especially the read option aspect of it. You can't run it for the sake of running it, it has to be when it is advantageous to do so. Us getting out of the Huddle with 15-12 seconds left on the play clock only gave us enough time to look over the defense, get your assignments, and snap the ball. In order for an offense like this to work to its full potential you HAVE to play at a faster pace and change plays at the line of scrimmage.

And lastly no I have no life :(. I make the majority of my money playing poker and betting sports, primarily football. I also do some work as a real estate broker. So I spend most of my time on the internet either playing cards, studying football, or studying the real estate market. I also just enjoy studying and researching QBs and basketball (the sport I actually played in college) just as a hobby.

No wonder your comments always make sense. Any betting man would know the read option is a money maker. If 2 average teams are playing the odd of the read option team winning is higher.

[FootballMaestro]

not my prefered RB nessecarily, but has been the preferred RB under Ron Rivera in both 2011 and 2012.

When healthy, Stewart and Tolbert are not the same back. Now, the question is if Stewart can ever go at something besides 90%.

D'Angelo and Tolbert are a better combination of backs, if you could only keep two of them.

No Tolbert and Stewart aren't exactly the same. However, the poster was correct in that they almost mirror each others similarities. Stewart just does most things faster. Tolbert does most things stronger/tougher. And they both catch the ball well out of the backfield. Tolbert actually looks to have the softer hands as well.

Tolbert could also fill in for D'Angelo as a lead back for maybe one or two games as well. He's a nice combination.

And Tolbert's short yardage ability is a nice luxury for Cam to have (i.e., he doesn't have to), especially if the offensive line is not up to snuff.

[CRA]

D'Angelo and Tolbert are a better combination of backs, if you could only keep two of them.

No Tolbert and Stewart aren't exactly the same. However, the poster was correct in that they almost mirror each others similarities. Stewart just does most things faster. Tolbert does most things stronger/tougher. And they both catch the ball well out of the backfield. Tolbert actually looks to have the softer hands as well.

Tolbert could also fill in for D'Angelo as a lead back for maybe one or two games as well.

in their primes? Sure, no arguement here but that isn't the reality we are faced with.

Today or going forward? The games against the Saints somehow making people forget about how unimpressive Williams was this year. He also is at the point where he is getting worse....not better.

Going forward a healthy Stewart is easily a better option than Williams if you had to pick. Now, you can debate Stewart will never play actually healthy....

Gentlemen will clean the mess up....we shouldn't have to be debating about all these RBs b/c the scenario shouldn't exist.

[panthers55]

random post..........

[panthers55]

It is clear you know your football and it is fun to talk to someone about the Xs and Os. I don't claim any great knowledge or expertise about football. Like you I am a fan of the game and the Panthers in particular. Instead of engaging in a football contest of one-upmanship, we ought to be able to enrich each other's knowledge in a more collegial manner. For example instead of nitpicking and pointing out that of course you can have 4 running backs in the backfield. You probably forgot that you don't have to have a quarterback or he can line up as a receiver. The receiver is replaced by another runningback. The result is that all 4 of the guys allowed in the backfield can be running backs lined up in a formation like the diamond formation run infrequently in the pistol offense and often in some versions of the wildcat. But I don't know why you would want to limit your options by not having a passing option by only using running backs. Having a guy like Newton allows us to have the running and passing option. Or why you would use 4 running backs when you could use a TE. But lets not quibble over those things.

Instead I found an interesting article about why we struggled with the read option while other teams like Washington did not. What is your take on this and would it suggest that Matso needs to read this or we can put him on the list of needed upgrades. If we did telegraph what we were doing and didn't figure it out all year, but this guy could see it plain as day, how telling is that? Maybe the problem was how we ran the read option, putting our suspect offensive line under an even bigger disadvantage than they already had when we lost our first and second string centers and had to shuffle everyone around.

http://www.catscratc...the-read-option