Don't Cut DW!

[Marguide]

I understand the sentiment to get rid of one or the other back but saying we need to cut either this year just makes no sense financially. If we cut or trade Williams this year we pay 10 million in dead cap space. If we make it a June 1st cut it is still 5 million this year and 5 million in 2014. All in dead cap space. In other words we pay 10 million and we still have to replace him with someone else and pay them. 10 million bucks thrown down the drain. Anyone who thinks that makes sense doesn't have a clue.

If we cut or trade Stewart we would have to pay over 16 million in dead cap space. Not even a possibility.

Keeping both of them for another year will cost 2,800,000 for Stewart and 8,200,000 for Williams or 10 million total for both which was the same or less than last year.

So cutting one or the other will result in tremendous cap hits in dead cap space where as keeping them will be no more than what we save by cutting Williams alone.

Now I know that some think that cutting Williams in 2013 will be good in the long run but honestly that wouldn't be true either. The way the contracts are structured you wouldn't cut Williams until 2014 and you wouldn't restructure much given you will still have to pay more in dead cap space down the road. Stewart is scheduled to make a 9 million dollar option in 2014 but I think it is guaranteed so in 2014 he would cost 1 million, plus 4.5 million in guaranteed bonuses for a 5.5 million hit. You could normally cut Stewart to avoid the option bonus but if it is guaranteed and I think it is, it would escalate and you would owe a ton.

Honestly the best option is keeping both of them in 2013, cut Williams in 2014 and you are stuck with Stewart until 2016 realistically.

Sorry, but your numbers are wrong.

If we cut DWill post June 1st, we pay him nothing, as he has no guaranteed money left on his deal. From a cap standpoint, we would be charged $3.2 million in unallocated bonus this year, with the rest ($6.4 million) hitting us next year. So instead of a cap hit of $8.2 million for 2013, we would have a cap hit of $3.2 million, saving us $5 million of cap money. In 2014, the cap savings would be $2.8 million. After that, he's off our books.

Stewart signed a contract with $23 million guaranteed. So far, he has collected just under $12 million dollars of that. So first of all, we would be on the hook for $11 million in cash unless we could find someone to pick up that obligation via trade. From a cap standpoint, we have that $11 million to deal with, along with another $7.2 million in unallocated signing bonus, for a total hit of just under $19 million dollars. So forget cutting him. Not that you were suggesting we should.

All that said, we may, and I emphasize may, be able to find a trade partner for Stew or DWill. In DWill's case, we would need to do it post June 1st. In Stew's case, they would have to be willing to pick up the $11 million not yet paid out in guaranteed money, plus whatever other salary he could negotiate.

[Argus Plexus]

Please restructure, I'd love to keep as much talent on the team as fiscally possible.

[CRA]

Sorry, but your numbers are wrong.

If we cut DWill post June 1st, we pay him nothing, as he has no guaranteed money left on his deal. From a cap standpoint, we would be charged $3.2 million in unallocated bonus this year, with the rest ($6.4 million) hitting us next year. So instead of a cap hit of $8.2 million for 2013, we would have a cap hit of $3.2 million, saving us $5 million of cap money. In 2014, the cap savings would be $2.8 million. After that, he's off our books.

Stewart signed a contract with $23 million guaranteed. So far, he has collected just under $12 million dollars of that. So first of all, we would be on the hook for $11 million in cash unless we could find someone to pick up that obligation via trade. From a cap standpoint, we have that $12 million to deal with, along with another $7.2 million in unallocated signing bonus, for a total hit of just under $20 million dollars. So forget cutting him. Not that you were suggesting we should.

All that said, we may, and I emphasize may, be able to find a trade partner for Stew or DWill. In DWill's case, we would need to do it post June 1st. In Stew's case, they would have to be willing to pick up the $12 million not yet paid out in guaranteed money, plus whatever other salary he could negotiate.

55's numbers are right....he is looking at how it reflects from a cap standpoint.

Technically we might not be giving a guy a check....but from a cap standpoint we are. Guaranteed money gets spread out over the length of a contract even if the player already has it in his pocket when you cut him

[panthers55]

Cam + Tolbert + Stewart in Chud's O? They absolutely can carry the load in this offense...in this offense there aren't enough carries for those 3 if they earn their money.

No point looking at if we can trade a RB....we can't trade one of ours in today's NFL. If a team needs a RB, they will just draft a young and cheap one.

Stewar didn't run for more than 51 yards in any game this season. And yes he did have a game where he was given 15 carries and 17 carries. Yeah he had yardage totals in the 40s.

Tell me again how Tolbert can carry the load when he ran for his highest total against San Diego which was 40 yards on 9 carries.

So if we combine their most productive games of the year we end up with a total of 83 yards on 20 carries. At worse they combined for 20 yards.

Unless you want to run Newton constantly, then Tolbert and Stewart can't carry the load based on 2012. Not close.

[CRA]

Please restructure, I'd love to keep as much talent on the team as fiscally possible.

Restructing can create more of the same problems we currently face.....especially if you throw money at an older or injured player. Have to be selective. Like restructuring both Beason and Williams is playing with fire. That cash can provide temporarily relief but haunt you in a year

[CRA]

Stewar didn't run for more than 51 yards in any game this season. And yes he did have a game where he was given 15 carries and 17 carries. Yeah he had yardage totals in the 40s.

Tell me again how Tolbert can carry the load when he ran for his highest total against San Diego which was 40 yards on 9 carries.

So if we combine their most productive games of the year we end up with a total of 83 yards on 20 carries. At worse they combined for 20 yards.

Unless you want to run Newton constantly, then Tolbert and Stewart can't carry the load based on 2012. Not close.

Easy.....bc this offense isn't about having a primary runner like a team like Minn or Hou. We had one RB hit 100 yards once in 2011....and many argue that was one of the best rushing attacks in NFL history.

And when you remove Williams....every RB takes on those carries. We ran the ball a total of 462 times this year. Cam needs at least 1/4. That would leave 348....which just happens to be the amount Adrian Peterson had all to himself this year. So you are saying Mike Tolbert and Jonathan Stewart can't split the carries a true featured RB gets?

That doesn't even factor in the garbage few carries WRs, etc got in our 462 this year

[panthers55]

Sorry, but your numbers are wrong.

If we cut DWill post June 1st, we pay him nothing, as he has no guaranteed money left on his deal. From a cap standpoint, we would be charged $3.2 million in unallocated bonus this year, with the rest ($6.4 million) hitting us next year. So instead of a cap hit of $8.2 million for 2013, we would have a cap hit of $3.2 million, saving us $5 million of cap money. In 2014, the cap savings would be $2.8 million. After that, he's off our books.

Stewart signed a contract with $23 million guaranteed. So far, he has collected just under $12 million dollars of that. So first of all, we would be on the hook for $11 million in cash unless we could find someone to pick up that obligation via trade. From a cap standpoint, we have that $11 million to deal with, along with another $7.2 million in unallocated signing bonus, for a total hit of just under $19 million dollars. So forget cutting him. Not that you were suggesting we should.

All that said, we may, and I emphasize may, be able to find a trade partner for Stew or DWill. In DWill's case, we would need to do it post June 1st. In Stew's case, they would have to be willing to pick up the $11 million not yet paid out in guaranteed money, plus whatever other salary he could negotiate.

Whether is is 3.2 in 2013 and 6.4 in 2014 or evenly split, the fact is 10 million will be lost in dead cap space. This idea of savings is the same thing my wife tells me when she spent 400 dollars but saved me almost 800 bucks. Yeah right. With the cap being flat in 2014 I don't think a 6.4 million cap hit is saving anything when we get nothing in return.

As for stewart he was given 23 million in guaranteed money but from a cap point of view he has collected less than 2 million of it. So if we cut or traded him he would still count over 21 million against the cap if he earned his incentives. Your numbers are way off. The issue is only whether the 9 million in option bonus is guaranteed or not. And if we trade him will we be on the hook or the other team.

You seem to be mixing salary and cap space which are not the same. His 9 million salary bonus has been paid but only 1.9 million has been counted against the cap.

[Argus Plexus]

Restructing can create more of the same problems we currently face.....especially if you throw money at an older or injured player. Have to be selective. Like restructuring both Beason and Williams is playing with fire. That cash can provide temporarily relief but haunt you in a year

I really wonder what Gett Dawg is going to do with these names we all love?

[Marguide]

55's numbers are right....he is looking at how it reflects from a cap standpoint.

Technically we might not be giving a guy a check....but from a cap standpoint we are. Guaranteed money gets spread out over the length of a contract even if the player already has it in his pocket when you cut him

No. Sorry again.

DWill's signing bonus was spread over 5 years, and we have to take $3.2 million of that each year as long as he's on the roster. Once he's off the roster, it accelerates, as I suspect you know. We are on the hook for 3 more years at $3.2 a year. That's $9.6 million.

When you cut a player after June 1st, you spread the hit over 2 years. The first year, you only have to take what was already on your books for that league year. The balance hits in year 2.

Here's the math, using Spotrac as the reference for contract figures:

Scheduled cap hit for 2013 = $8.2 million dollars

Scheduled non-guaranteed salary = $4.750 million (we don't have to pay any of this)

Scheduled work out bonus = $250,000 (again, not guaranteed)

Scheduled allocated signing bonus charge = $3.2 million (no cash, but we are on the hook for this)

$8.2 million - $3.2 million = savings of $5 million

You can do the same exercise for 2014, but the answer is we save $2.8 million.

[CRA]

I really wonder what Gett Dawg is going to do with these names we all love?

I would imagine he will be hated intitially...

[Marguide]

Whether is is 3.2 in 2013 and 6.4 in 2014 or evenly split, the fact is 10 million will be lost in dead cap space.

But it is just an accounting number, nothing more. Whether DWill plays here or not, we can't make that $9.6 million accounting figure go away. Why it makes more sense to move him when we have an alternative and are strapped for cap space is because in addition to that $9.6 million over 3 years, he is scheduled to earn an additional $17.250 million in salary over the next 3 years.

Now we both know he isn't going to see all that $17 million in un-guaranteed salary, but he surely is going to be earning something if he is still playing. We have 2 highly paid backs. We agree that baring a miracle trade, Stew isn't going anywhere. So our choice is this...do we re-negotiate DWill giving him more guaranteed money (right now he has $0) and not have any appreciable cap savings this year from clearing his contract, or do we move him out and help our cap by $5 million.

I wish we could keep him, and maybe they'll find a creative way to do so and then use him effectively, but it just doesn't seem realistic.

Edit: By the way, I'll bet we could use that cap savings this year to sign a nice safety or RG or #2 WR in FA. We have to be under the cap in March, so those moves will already have been made, and come June 1st, if we do something with DWill, we suddenly have some money to go out and find some help at a position of need.

[panthers55]

Easy.....bc this offense isn't about having a primary runner like a team like Minn or Hou. We had one RB hit 100 yards in 2011....and many argue that was one of the best rushing attacks in NFL history.

And when you remove Williams....every RB takes on those carries. We ran the ball a total of 462 times this year. Cam needs at least 1/4. That would leave 348....which just happens to be the amount Adrian Peterson had all to himself this year. So you are saying Mike Tolbert and Jonathan Stewart can't split the carries a true featured RB gets?

That doesn't even factor in the garbage few carries WRs, etc got in our 462 this year

Assuming that Stewart will hold up for 16 games may be a stretch. He has never carried the ball more than 221 times and even with that ended up on IR 2 of the past three years. And your logic that carries will be picked up by others may not be true. Against Seattle for example Stewart carried for 4 carries for 16 yards and Williams ran it 6 times for 6 yards. Even Cam only has 42 yards on 7 carries. Tolbert had 1 carry for 3 yards. How about against Tampa twice?? Stewart didn't play and Tolbert and Williams combined for 7 carries for 1 yard. Newton had 5 carries for 4 yards. The second time, Stewart had 43 yards on 15 carries, Williams had 18 yards on 7 carries. Even Newton had only 40 yards on 11 carries.

Again Stewart showed very little in 2012. Even if you give him all of Williams carries against Seattle he gets 62 yards, and again Tampa he gets 61 yards on 22 carries. He did better against NO and Washington on a yard per carry average but otherwise as pretty bad.

As a team we didn't do much against good run defenses and Stewart didn't really help that much.

[panthers55]

But it is just an accounting number, nothing more. Whether DWill plays here or not, we can't make that $9.6 million accounting figure go away. Why it makes more sense to move him when we have an alternative and are strapped for cap space is because in addition to that $9.6 million over 3 years, he is scheduled to earn an additional $17.250 million in salary over the next 3 years.

Now we both know he isn't going to see all that $17 million in un-guaranteed salary, but he surely is going to be earning something if he is still playing. We have 2 highly paid backs. We agree that baring a miracle trade, Stew isn't going anywhere. So our choice is this...do we re-negotiate DWill giving him more guaranteed money (right now he has $0) and not have any appreciable cap savings this year from clearing his contract, or do we move him out and help our cap by $5 million.

I wish we could keep him, and maybe they'll find a creative way to do so and then use him effectively, but it just doesn't seem realistic.

Edit: By the way, I'll bet we could use that cap savings this year to sign a nice safety or RG or #2 WR in FA. We have to be under the cap in March, so those moves will already have been made, and come June 1st, if we do something with DWill, we suddenly have some money to go out and find some help at a position of need.

All of this assumes that Williams is essentially superfluous or easily replaced and I just don't believe that Stewart can handle the load he just hasn't gone that ever and there is no reason to believe this year will be any different. I would rather find the cap space elsewhere and not put my eggs in the Stewart basket when he seems too fragile.

[Kevin Greene]

Assuming that Stewart will hold up for 16 games may be a stretch. He has never carried the ball more than 221 times and even with that ended up on IR 2 of the past three years. And your logic that carries will be picked up by others may not be true. Against Seattle for example Stewart carried for 4 carries for 16 yards and Williams ran it 6 times for 6 yards. Even Cam only has 42 yards on 7 carries. Tolbert had 1 carry for 3 yards. How about against Tampa twice?? Stewart didn't play and Tolbert and Williams combined for 7 carries for 1 yard. Newton had 5 carries for 4 yards. The second time, Stewart had 43 yards on 15 carries, Williams had 18 yards on 7 carries. Even Newton had only 40 yards on 11 carries.

Again Stewart showed very little in 2012. Even if you give him all of Williams carries against Seattle he gets 62 yards, and again Tampa he gets 61 yards on 22 carries. He did better against NO and Washington on a yard per carry average but otherwise as pretty bad.

As a team we didn't do much against good run defenses and Stewart didn't really help that much.

This is part of the disfunctional Carolina system. Hurney spends valuable draft picks and cap dollars on the running back position and Rivera doesn't utilize it.

Did they ever freaking talk philosiphies?

Both those numbskulls needed to go.