darin gantt "Panthers keep finding scapegoats, bigger problem remains"

[rayzor]

Exactly.

I read the article on Cowher today and wanted to just cry.

The people on here who wanted the college coach du jour just astound me.

Of course few of those are coughing up money each year for seats either.

No disrespect to anyone meant with that comment...its just when a person invests that kinda of money when money is a tight commodity, I need something more than 'but he shows other coaches how to run their offense'.

Cowher would be smart enough, and his reptuation good enough, that his staff would be quite special.

i don't have anything to add to this and i don't even agree with a lot of it. i just thought it should appear again.

[rayzor]

Do you really think a NFL coach in his first stint as a HC....hires 20 coaches and they all mesh?

Some of our coaches are guys Rivera settled for as it would be impossible for him to build the staff he wanted immediately.

That isn't a RR thing. If RR was looking to make a scapegoat he would fire Chud. These aren't "scapegoats".

i think to an extent it is. rivera's got to make the boss happy and look like changes are gonna be made.

[Proudiddy]

Do you really think a NFL coach in his first stint as a HC....hires 20 coaches and they all mesh?

Some of our coaches are guys Rivera settled for as it would be impossible for him to build the staff he wanted immediately.

That isn't a RR thing. If RR was looking to make a scapegoat he would fire Chud. These aren't "scapegoats".

CRA, if they're not scapegoats then please tell me how much of an impact position coaches have on games on a week to week basis.

[Guest Tom Cat]

Do you really think a NFL coach in his first stint as a HC....hires 20 coaches and they all mesh?

Some of our coaches are guys Rivera settled for as it would be impossible for him to build the staff he wanted immediately.

That isn't a RR thing. If RR was looking to make a scapegoat he would fire Chud. These aren't "scapegoats".

You do realize Rivera has been here with these guys for 2 full years? Why now?

[panthers55]

Do you really think a NFL coach in his first stint as a HC....hires 20 coaches and they all mesh?

Some of our coaches are guys Rivera settled for as it would be impossible for him to build the staff he wanted immediately.

That isn't a RR thing. If RR was looking to make a scapegoat he would fire Chud. These aren't "scapegoats".

I agree with you. At this point Rivera isn't replacing people to appease anyone or scapegoat anyone, IMO. He has essentially been given 1 year to get to the playoffs and he is doing everything he can to accomplish that. He thinks apparently that McDermott and Chud are keepers and frankly I agree.

Yeah Chud did not give Newton enough credit or leeway early on to do his thing but given the freedom he had later in the year and the change to more of a pro style offense, it hardly makes sense to change things that were working at the end of the year. Our offense was very good the last 5 or 6 games. That didn't happen by change or luck. After all the years when scoring 20 points was a real issue, you would think fans would be happy to have a top offense particularly when we got our act together. Sure we struggled early but how long has it been since we had a team that scored over 22 points a game in consecutive seasons. Yeah that would be 2004-2005. Even the Superbowl year in 2003 we averaged only 20 points a game.

As for McDermott, I think most folks are pretty okay with the defense at this point.

So who are left?? Yeah, Position folks. Who can tell me that making a change on special teams wasn't a good thing?? Who can tell me that canning Meeks wasn't a good thing if you want to go away from a cover 2 soft defense to a more aggressive man defense.

As for the current changes, who says that the running backs coach is doing a good job? I can't point to where he has done a good job, can you?? Have our wide receivers ever been all that great outside of Smith? Where are our Victor Cruzs? And who says that our linebacker play was great outside of Kuechly and Davis? If Rivera's job is on the line he surely should decide who he wants to live and die with instead of being second guessed because he made changes. As for sitting back and complaining about Hurney getting fired, who would do that in the position he was at at the time sitting at 2-8. Your team is doing lousy, your boss get fired, and you support him and say you think he should be kept??? A sure fire plan to find yourself out on the street kicking stones along with him.

Gantt is off base on this one. Sometimes he is spot on but not this time. As for him holding a grudge, I think there must have been some bad blood as to why he was canned from covering the Panthers and it is showing......

[panthers55]

CRA, if they're not scapegoats then please tell me how much of an impact position coaches have on games on a week to week basis.

Who do you think spends all day every day in practice with them getting ready for the games. Practice is where you learn the skills you use on game day. Most players are much tighter with the position coaches than the coordinators and the head coach. They do all the dirty work to make the coordinators and head coaches look good on game day.

[panthers55]

You do realize Rivera has been here with these guys for 2 full years? Why now?

He thought 2012 was going to be good, everyone did. Why make wholesale changes on a team going to the playoffs. Now his back is against the wall and he is looking to do everything he can to turn things around. So he has reevaluated things and is making changes. I think it is a good idea........

[Proudiddy]

Who do you think spends all day every day in practice with them getting ready for the games. Practice is where you learn the skills you use on game day. Most players are much tighter with the position coaches than the coordinators and the head coach. They do all the dirty work to make the coordinators and head coaches look good on game day.

I'm aware of their duties.

My point was, how much of our problems were technique versus gameday decisions? Position coaches don't make those.

[panthers55]

You have to wonder with all these lower level firings why the guy that hired them to begin with isnt getting canned as well.

Thought about it last night - JR is holding on to Rivera for one reason - to save himself money. Its the only thing that makes any sort of sense. Pitiful way to run a sports team and completely unfair to the fans of that team.

Disagree totally. Rivera is still here because he has shown in the last 5 games that his team has the ability to contend and he can game plan and get his players ready to play. He was told to improve despite the injuries and schedule at the end and he did. He beat 2 division rivals one of which Richardson supposedly dislikes and did what he was asked to do. Was it too late for this year? Yes, but certainly enough in my mind to give him another year.

[Proudiddy]

He thought 2012 was going to be good, everyone did. Why make wholesale changes on a team going to the playoffs. Now his back is against the wall and he is looking to do everything he can to turn things around. So he has reevaluated things and is making changes. I think it is a good idea........

I know we won't agree on this because we've already discussed our positions on Coach Rivera. But, I am obviously looking at it from the other end of the spectrum.

I look at it as though you guys are saying, he knows he has one year to prove himself and everything is on the line now, so he has to assemble the best staff possible. So, does that mean he half-heartedly assembled the one he just fired as sacrificial lambs?

The other part of that deal is, if it didn't work out with this group of positional coaches and they were the problem after 2 years together, then how is he going to hire a new group of positional coaches and it all magically comes together in 1 year? Just as with players, the coaching staff has to mesh together and get some chemistry going... I think it's really dumb to start over with positional coaches when supposedly everything is on the line this year.

I mean, if we kept Rivera for the sake of giving him another year because everything looked really good closing out the year, why don't the positional coaches get the same considerations? Weren't they a part of all of that amazing awesomeness? LOL.

[panthers55]

I'm aware of their duties.

My point was, how much of our problems were technique versus gameday decisions? Position coaches don't make those.

I think many of our problems where not having backups ready to play when starters went down and guys not executing when they needed to. I think gameday decisions by coordinators and Rivera were an issue at times but not the main reason we lost so many early.

[panthers55]

I know we won't agree on this because we've already discussed our positions on Coach Rivera. But, I am obviously looking at it from the other end of the spectrum.

I look at it as though you guys are saying, he knows he has one year to prove himself and everything is on the line now, so he has to assemble the best staff possible. So, does that mean he half-heartedly assembled the one he just fired as sacrificial lambs?

The other part of that deal is, if it didn't work out with this group of positional coaches and they were the problem after 2 years together, then how is he going to hire a new group of positional coaches and it all magically comes together in 1 year? Just as with players, the coaching staff has to mesh together and get some chemistry going... I think it's really dumb to start over with positional coaches when supposedly everything is on the line this year.

I mean, if we kept Rivera for the sake of giving him another year because everything looked really good closing out the year, why don't the positional coaches get the same considerations? Weren't they a part of all of that amazing awesomeness? LOL.

You are right we won't agree because I have already told you why I think we are making changes now and why your logic doesn't follow.

After 2011 I think everyone was excited about where we were and felt we were going to the playoffs. When you are doing well and I think going from 2-12 to 6-10 in one year is a lot of progress, you don't make wholesale changes thinking things are going well. When you realize that there were issues and you fell short of your goal by a lot, you have to reexamine your assumptions and decide where you were wrong. Rivera did that and decided to make some changes.

Why didn't all the positional coaches get a pass because we closed things out well? Assuming you agree with the special teams canning early in the year, we let some guys go in areas where Rivera wants improvement. Again tell me where you think these guys were doing a good job and were canned unfairly. To be a sacrificial lamb you have to be sacrificed needlessly when there was no reason to do so.

How can anyone outside of the organization with no working knowledge of what went on from day to day decide which position coach was doing bad or good. They look at the games and infer things which is not always accurate but it is what we have. So tell me what things about the runningbacks or wide receivers makes you believe the positional guys did a great job. I can see where the linebackers position could be an issue but who says personalities didn't factor in as well or he has someone in mind he likes better who is suddenly available given all the firings of head coaches.

Just because you finish well doesn't mean everything went well. You still can have issues which need correction.

[Proudiddy]

You are right we won't agree because I have already told you why I think we are making changes now and why your logic doesn't follow.

After 2011 I think everyone was excited about where we were and felt we were going to the playoffs. When you are doing well and I think going from 2-12 to 6-10 in one year is a lot of progress, you don't make wholesale changes thinking things are going well. When you realize that there were issues and you fell short of your goal by a lot, you have to reexamine your assumptions and decide where you were wrong. Rivera did that and decided to make some changes.

Why didn't all the positional coaches get a pass because we closed things out well? Assuming you agree with the special teams canning early in the year, we let some guys go in areas where Rivera wants improvement. Again tell me where you think these guys were doing a good job and were canned unfairly. To be a sacrificial lamb you have to be sacrificed needlessly when there was no reason to do so.

How can anyone outside of the organization with no working knowledge of what went on from day to day decide which position coach was doing bad or good. They look at the games and infer things which is not always accurate but it is what we have. So tell me what things about the runningbacks or wide receivers makes you believe the positional guys did a great job. I can see where the linebackers position could be an issue but who says personalities didn't factor in as well or he has someone in mind he likes better who is suddenly available given all the firings of head coaches.

Just because you finish well doesn't mean everything went well. You still can have issues which need correction.

But, that brings us back to my point... How can you judge what a positional coach is doing or how well players are doing in their respective positional duties when your head coach and coordinators are dysfunctional?

The running backs can't be judged on their performance fairly, because they were being asked to do things that weren't working (heavy read option, very few traditional runs to start the year). Wide receivers numbers were down because we couldn't stay on the field, in part because of the calls being made by Chud. I don't remember saying to myself at the beginning of the year, "Man, if ____ wouldn't have jacked up that route or dropped that pass." Nor do I remember saying, "If DeAngelo would have cut back... If Stew would have blah blah blah." Nor do I remember those being the complaints of anyone else on this board.

You're right. There were problems that needed to be addressed. And it had nothing to do with positional execution. We weren't struggling because of those things, we were struggling because Rivera, Chud, and to some degree McD (at the beginning of the year) were sabotaging the season with poor play calls and strategic decisions.

Our problems weren't dropped passes or missed assignments. Rivera himself admitted the offensive philosophy to start the year was a failure because they tried to "think ahead of the curve." He admitted that was the problem. Yet, here we are, going into another season with him when he allowed that to fester for at least 6 games before something was done differently.

That's why my problem is with Rivera. If you don't want to call the last few wins meaningless, then it means everyone was playing as if we were 0-0. By that logic, it means this team was just as capable of playing that way to start the year. So, in turn, it falls at Rivera's feet. If this team was capable of that play in meaningful games all year, he dropped 5 or 6 before he made adjustments that led to the end-of-season-wins. That is inexcusable.

But, we can continue to act as though route running, catching, and ball security were the major factors in our losses and poor overall outcome.

Again, I'm not intending to get in a pissing match as I respect your posts P55... Just my opinion.

[panthers55]

But, that brings us back to my point... How can you judge what a positional coach is doing or how well players are doing in their respective positional duties when your head coach and coordinators are dysfunctional?

The running backs can't be judged on their performance fairly, because they were being asked to do things that weren't working (heavy read option, very few traditional runs to start the year). Wide receivers numbers were down because we couldn't stay on the field, in part because of the calls being made by Chud. I don't remember saying to myself at the beginning of the year, "Man, if ____ wouldn't have jacked up that route or dropped that pass." Nor do I remember saying, "If DeAngelo would have cut back... If Stew would have blah blah blah." Nor do I remember those being the complaints of anyone else on this board.

You're right. There were problems that needed to be addressed. And it had nothing to do with positional execution. We weren't struggling because of those things, we were struggling because Rivera, Chud, and to some degree McD (at the beginning of the year) were sabotaging the season with poor play calls and strategic decisions.

Our problems weren't dropped passes or missed assignments. Rivera himself admitted the offensive philosophy to start the year was a failure because they tried to "think ahead of the curve." He admitted that was the problem. Yet, here we are, going into another season with him when he allowed that to fester for at least 6 games before something was done differently.

That's why my problem is with Rivera. If you don't want to call the last few wins meaningless, then it means everyone was playing as if we were 0-0. By that logic, it means this team was just as capable of playing that way to start the year. So, in turn, it falls at Rivera's feet. If this team was capable of that play in meaningful games all year, he dropped 5 or 6 before he made adjustments that led to the end-of-season-wins. That is inexcusable.

But, we can continue to act as though route running, catching, and ball security were the major factors in our losses and poor overall outcome.

Again, I'm not intending to get in a pissing match as I respect your posts P55... Just my opinion.

The first sentence says it all. You think Rivera and the coordinators are dysfunctional and I don't. I think they are learning and figuring things out. I expect them to grow from this year and be better next. You obviously feel they are broken and won't improve.

You also seem to think you have some knowledge about the inner workings of the organization or how everyone did their job. Where did you get that from? Have you ever even talked to any of the positional coaches and any of the organizational people at all. So all your understanding about positional responses and who did a good or job job is speculation at best.

Rivera admitted there were offensive issues. That has nothing to do with why the positional guys were fired. Otherwise it would have been Chud.

No one said that the wide receivers or runningbacks were the main problems but they are areas where the coach wants better performance positionally. And he is in the best position to judge that. Frankly I would think people would be happy he is trying to right the ship instead of taking pot shots.

I just reject the idea of sacrificial lambs. It didn't apply to Hurney and it doesn't apply now.