Can't Believe I'm Asking This, But I Just Want To See...

[rayzor]

defeating 8 average or worse teams on your schedule and backpedaling into a playoff berth because every other team in your division is as inept as yours isn't exactly a bangup job

yep. stumbled into a good situation then stumbled into the playoffs then stumbled into peyton manning.

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

while they had pieces in place, their defense was a joke. He turned it around even before he got del Rio back to lead the defense. The offense was good enough with The Golden Calf of Bristol as QB to get them into the playoffs. Weak conference or not, getting into the playoffs is important.

Then he got the vet QB he's always desired.

He didn't fall into anything.

a "vet QB" to fox is a guy like kyle orton or jake delhomme, not an expensive top shelf free agent like peyton manning. that was elway's doing all the way. also you're arguing as if the The Golden Calf of Bristol thing happened in a vacuum and how awful the AFC west is/was doesn't matter which is disingenuous. he had plenty of 8-8 and 7-9 panther teams but that isn't good for poo in the NFC south.

the only time we ever chased a blue chip free agent QB was in 2007 when we brought in david carr (yes there was a time when carr was considered a desirable free agent) yet there was never any doubt whatsoever that jake would still start.

also i don't think anybody in their right mind is arguing that john fox doesn't know how to coach a defense.

[Cyberjag]

Fox dumped his veteran Peete to play Jake. Aside from Davis, every first rounder he had started their rookie year. He brought the wildcat back to the NFL.

If he was coaching this team, as is, with these coordinators, he would probably have gone 10-6 or better. There were a few games earlier this year that he wouldn't have let get away--just like Rivera has a knack for losing the close ones, Fox has a knack for winning them.

Hate on him all you want, he was and is a good coach.

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

Fox dumped his veteran Peete to play Jake. Aside from Davis, every first rounder he had started their rookie year.

wrong. he started foster all of 2006 over williams. again in 2007 until near the end of the season.

additionally although stewart was platooned heavily with deangelo in 2008 he wasn't the "starter"

[The NFL Shield At Midfield]

really it's not even about fox being a "good coach" or not-it's the subtext. because his denver team is the top seed in the AFC it's implied in all this hypothetical grabass that we let a mastermind slip through our fingers by his numerous apologists on this board. that's bullshit.

right now, fox is in a situation in denver where his strengths are maximized and his deficiencies are minimized if not eliminated. nobody in their right mind would dare argue that the man doesn't have an eye for defense or can't motivate players-that's his biggest strength by far. we always had reasonably good defenses in carolina when he was here. a few bordered on great, even.

but you either weren't paying attention or are ignoring much of what happened when he coached here if you think he's a good offensive playcaller or judge of personnel on that side of the ball. you are deluded if you think he's allowed to lay a finger on denver's offense, let alone call plays.

[Cyberjag]

wrong. he started foster all of 2006 over williams. again in 2007 until near the end of the season.

additionally although stewart was platooned heavily with deangelo in 2008 he wasn't the "starter"

I stand corrected. Still, he played every rookie first rounder that he could extensively. The notion that he wouldn't play them is a myth.

[bleys]

really it's not even about fox being a "good coach" or not-it's the subtext. because his denver team is the top seed in the AFC it's implied in all this hypothetical grabass that we let a mastermind slip through our fingers by his numerous apologists on this board. that's bullshit.

right now, fox is in a situation in denver where his strengths are maximized and his deficiencies are minimized if not eliminated. nobody in their right mind would dare argue that the man doesn't have an eye for defense or can't motivate players-that's his biggest strength by far. we always had reasonably good defenses in carolina when he was here. a few bordered on great, even.

but you either weren't paying attention or are ignoring much of what happened when he coached here if you think he's a good offensive playcaller or judge of personnel on that side of the ball. you are deluded if you think he's allowed to lay a finger on denver's offense, let alone call plays.

well said.. lol

Fox was just as good at losing close games as he was winning them..

[pantherclaw]

a "vet QB" to fox is a guy like kyle orton or jake delhomme, not an expensive top shelf free agent like peyton manning. that was elway's doing all the way. also you're arguing as if the The Golden Calf of Bristol thing happened in a vacuum and how awful the AFC west is/was doesn't matter which is disingenuous. he had plenty of 8-8 and 7-9 panther teams but that isn't good for poo in the NFC south.

the only time we ever chased a blue chip free agent QB was in 2007 when we brought in david carr (yes there was a time when carr was considered a desirable free agent) yet there was never any doubt whatsoever that jake would still start.

also i don't think anybody in their right mind is arguing that john fox doesn't know how to coach a defense.

if you believe what you just posted, then you are decision.

Just cause Jake ended up being his guy here in charlotte doesn't justify your blindness.

Fox and Elway were important to Denver getting manning.

It's alright. I understand you don't want to give the man any credit.

Just keep it to yourself, and don't try to pass it off as fact.

[rayzor]

really it's not even about fox being a "good coach" or not-it's the subtext. because his denver team is the top seed in the AFC it's implied in all this hypothetical grabass that we let a mastermind slip through our fingers by his numerous apologists on this board. that's bullshit.

right now, fox is in a situation in denver where his strengths are maximized and his deficiencies are minimized if not eliminated. nobody in their right mind would dare argue that the man doesn't have an eye for defense or can't motivate players-that's his biggest strength by far. we always had reasonably good defenses in carolina when he was here. a few bordered on great, even.

but you either weren't paying attention or are ignoring much of what happened when he coached here if you think he's a good offensive playcaller or judge of personnel on that side of the ball. you are deluded if you think he's allowed to lay a finger on denver's offense, let alone call plays.

agreed with everything but with this little comment...

nobody in their right mind would dare argue that the man doesn't have an eye for defense or can't motivate players-that's his biggest strength by far.

i think he could motivate....but he stopped doing it eventually. part of the whole "message getting old" part i think that came as a result of early success making way for complacency.