Kobe Bryant doesn't get it

[teeray]

Did you fail basic fuging math? Since when is 21.8 nearly twice of 22.3 ???

Touche' :blush:

I think I typed that around 2:30AM so maybe you can cut me a little bit of slack. :(

[C47]

Touche' :blush:

I think I typed that around 2:30AM so maybe you can cut me a little bit of slack. :(

Eh, I suppose....

[teeray]

The main reason that Kobe shoots 21.8 times per game compared to Gasol shooting 11.6 and Howard shooting 10.7 per game is the offense and the bigs ineffectiveness. Against Philly, Dwight went 1-7 and Gasol went 2-11... they have games similar to that quite often (though maybe not quite to that extent). Pau Gasol has been pretty terrible this season and is shooting less than 42% from the field and Dwight has ZERO post game at all.. 1/3 things happen when Dwight gets the ball in the post. 1. He gets stripped and it leads to a TO. 2. He faces up and drives by his defender. 3. He shoots a contested hook shot. (1 and 3 seem to happen the most often) Although I will agree with you that the Lakers need to get the ball in the post to Dwight more, it's not really Kobe's decision. Mike D'Antoni has gone on record stating that he thinks that post-up's are ineffective so he doesn't run them.

LeBron is the better all around player, and I'll give ya that. Kobe at this point in his career is a scorer and that's about it. However, prime Kobe Bryant took Pau Gasol, and Lamar Odom to the NBA Finals 3 straight years and won twice... with those guys as his best players... Gasol had made the All-Star team once in his career before he got to LA and had never sniffed the 2nd round. Lamar Odom has never made an All-Star team. His 3rd best player was hobbled Andrew Bynum who was always hurt and largely ineffectively most of the time. Although I will say that without Bynum I'm not sure that the Lakers would've made 3 straight finals (unless you replace him with another average C that can play defense well).

LeBron's Cavs team didn't have a ton of talent, but they were talented enough to make the finals in a VERY weak Eastern conference. Let's not pretend that having LeBron on your team is automatic success. I definitely respect your opinions on the Panthers and I usually agree with them as you probably know (liking post, giving pie, etc), but I just don't agree with your basketball opinions, at least when specifically talking about Kobe Bryant.

I we agreed on everything, what would be the fun in that? ;)

The Lakers had Trevor Ariza/Metta World Peace, Derek Fisher, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, and Pau Gasol. That is a really, really good team.

Lebron's Cavs team had no talent.

But I will say this for Kobe. If I had to pick between Kobe and Lebron to be on my team I would take Lebron all day. But if I had to pick between Kobe or Lebron to have the ball on a final possession to win a game, I take Kobe all day long.

[Hawk]

if I had to pick between Kobe 10 years ago and Lebron anytime in his career...I'd take Kobe anyday!

[teeray]

if I had to pick between Kobe 10 years ago and Lebron anytime in his career...I'd take Kobe anyday!

Kobe 10 years ago isn't a whole lot different than Kobe right now.

Lebron is better than Kobe in every way. I mean that as far as overall impact on both sides, obviously Kobe is a better shooter than Lebron. And Lebron makes everyone else around him better. Kobe does not.

I hate to say it that way, but I don't look at it as much as an insult to Kobe as it is a compliment to Lebron.

However, I still have Kobe ahead of Lebron on my all-time list simply because he has 5 rings (or 2 ;)). But if Lebron wins just one more title he will leapfrog Kobe on my list.

Anyone who thinks that Kobe ever has been as good as Lebron is playing right now, is either a fool or a Lakers fan. Again that is a compliment to Lebron, not an insult to Kobe.

[Hawk]

all comparisons are based on personal opinion...happens in every sport!!

I'll stick with Kobe as a Lakers fan!

[h0llywood]

And truth be told he never really has.

His recent statements prove that he is a guy that does not and never has gotten it.

He actually thinks this is the best he has played in a long time

http://espn.go.com/l...t-played-awhile

He has the best team possibly ever assembled around him and they still can't win and blames everyone else but himself.

http://espn.go.com/l...ers-lack-energy

It is sad when Metta World Peace has to be the logical one in a locker room.

He has publicly ridiculed his teammates and told them to "put their big boy pants on"

He rode Shaq's coattails to three titles, then personally lost them a chance at a 4th, pouted through a playoff game by refusing to shoot the ball in the second half of a game, then forced Shaq and Jackson out because he wanted all the accolades only to fail miserably until the Lakers were forced to re-hire Jackson.

You can put all the all-stars you want around Kobe Bryant (and you have to have all-stars around him to make up for his play *see 04-05) but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. They won't touch the ball unless Kobe wants you to touch the ball.

Ball movement ends when the ball gets to Kobe. That is why the Lakers are second in scoring but 19th in assists. Despite having one of the best passers in NBA history on their team. It makes no sense to have 5 current or former all-stars on your team, and yet one player is shooting the ball around 30 times a game.

Kobe is still one of the best players in the NBA, and he is one of the top 20 players of all-time at worst, so to call him overrated is a little far fetched.

But in a historical context I just don't see him as a top ten player all-time. I see a guy that is about one thing and one thing only, Kobe Bryant. To, at times, the detriment of his teams.

Good read but there are a lot of fallacies with what you've written.

A lot of the statements you made seem to be based on dislike on Kobe as a person and not as a player.

Here's career shooting attempt averages for relevant players:

Michael Jordan - 22.9

Lebron James - 20.3

Kobe Bryant - 19.6

Carmelo Anthony - 19.3

Kevin Durant - 19.0

Dwyane Wade - 18.2

The idea that Kobe "Shoots Too Much" is like saying Cam Newton scores too much. Kobe is a scorer. Kobe is a shooting guard (you know, like shoots the ball?). Kobe is the star player on the team (Did you expect Smush Parker to take those 20 shots per game?)

Why is it that the concept of Kobe shooting the ball too much only applies to Kobe but not to current stars Lebron, Durant, Carmelo and Wade? As I previously mentioned, it's your personal disdain for Kobe.

Kobe doesn't get it? Kobe stated that his team is too old. Being that he is the second oldest starter on the team, he is referring to himself. He is placing the blame on himself as well.

Kobe thinks this is the best he's played in a long time. That is the truth so why question it? He's averaging the most points per game in 7 seasons and he is shooting at a career best shooting percentage.

Kobe telling Pau Gasol to put his big boy pants on while he is playing soft is actually quite tame for Kobe. Regardless of how you view it, Kobe was right and Pau needed to stop playing soft.

Kobe riding Shaq's coattails is an opinion shared by many but the sentiment is also that Shaq would not have won without Kobe.

Here are Shaq's and Kobe's production averages during their 3 peat run:

Shaq = 28.2 PPG

Kobe = 27.9

Looks to me like Kobe more than held his own during the run to those championships. Find me another player to average that many points during a title run and be labeled as someone who rode someone else's coattails. None, only because of the personal disdain for Kobe.

[teeray]

Good read but there are a lot of fallacies with what you've written.

A lot of the statements you made seem to be based on dislike on Kobe as a person and not as a player.

Here's career shooting attempt averages for relevant players:

Michael Jordan - 22.9

Lebron James - 20.3

Kobe Bryant - 19.6

Carmelo Anthony - 19.3

Kevin Durant - 19.0

Dwyane Wade - 18.2

The idea that Kobe "Shoots Too Much" is like saying Cam Newton scores too much. Kobe is a scorer. Kobe is a shooting guard (you know, like shoots the ball?). Kobe is the star player on the team (Did you expect Smush Parker to take those 20 shots per game?)

Why is it that the concept of Kobe shooting the ball too much only applies to Kobe but not to current stars Lebron, Durant, Carmelo and Wade? As I previously mentioned, it's your personal disdain for Kobe.

Kobe doesn't get it? Kobe stated that his team is too old. Being that he is the second oldest starter on the team, he is referring to himself. He is placing the blame on himself as well.

Kobe thinks this is the best he's played in a long time. That is the truth so why question it? He's averaging the most points per game in 7 seasons and he is shooting at a career best shooting percentage.

Kobe telling Pau Gasol to put his big boy pants on while he is playing soft is actually quite tame for Kobe. Regardless of how you view it, Kobe was right and Pau needed to stop playing soft.

Kobe riding Shaq's coattails is an opinion shared by many but the sentiment is also that Shaq would not have won without Kobe.

Here are Shaq's and Kobe's production averages during their 3 peat run:

Shaq = 28.2 PPG

Kobe = 27.9

Looks to me like Kobe more than held his own during the run to those championships. Find me another player to average that many points during a title run and be labeled as someone who rode someone else's coattails. None, only because of the personal disdain for Kobe.

One of the reasons Kobe's shot per game over his career is that low is because he had nearly 270 games at the start of his career where he was developing and was taking less than 18 shots per game in each of his first 4 years, including his rookie year when he played in 71 games but only averaged 6 attempts per game.

When you career shooting percentage is .454 you will probably benefit your team by not taking such a high volume of shots, but take higher percentage shots. To put that in perspective, Kobe is currently on on pace to have his best FG% in his career this season at .479. It would mark the first time in Kobe Bryant's career he finished with a FG% higher than .470 Lebron has only had a FG% lower than .470 once in his career, his rookie season. Dwyane Wade has only shot below .470 twice. His rookie year and 07-08 (.469 so pretty close) and has a career FG% of .486.

If you exclude Jordan's time with the Wizards and the season he was hurt and the season he came out of retirement , he only shot below .480 one season, his last season with the Bulls (.465).

To put it more simply, volume of shots doesn't bother me if you are making a high percentage of them. But when you are shooting only .454 (which isn't terrible, it just isn't very good either) of your shots you aren't always helping when you are shooting 25+ times a game.

Which brings me to my next point. Volume of shots can also be a product of your team Although Kobe definitely shot too much in 05-06 (27.2 shots per game) they also didn't have a lot of other options on that team. But when you have Metta World Peace, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, and now Steve Nash, you shouldn't have a guy shooting 25+ times a game. Not when there is no one else on that team averaging over 12 shots per game. As I stated earlier there is no reason why Kobe should be averaging as many shots per game as Gasol and Howard combined.

You mentioned Lebron's shots per game in your post. But while in Cleveland those shots per game steadily went down as they got better players around him. But then he went to Miami, which has Bosh and Wade, and for the last three seasons Lebron has not averaged over 19 shots per game since he has been in Miami. In Cleveland he only shot below 19 shots per game once, his rookie year. As I mentioned in another post Wade is shooting 15.4 times per game and Bosh 12.3.

There will always be times when Kobe needs to take over the game if he can. But I think in order for this incredible Lakers team with 2 MVPs and the best center in the NBA on it Kobe need to be shooting more in the 16-19 shots per game and there needs to be more balance.

Otherwise, the Lakers are only going to go as far as Kobe Bryant takes them. And it shouldn't have to be that way this year, with this team, and this much talent.

[ZB1224]

One of the reasons Kobe's shot per game over his career is that low is because he had nearly 270 games at the start of his career where he was developing and was taking less than 18 shots per game in each of his first 4 years, including his rookie year when he played in 71 games but only averaged 6 attempts per game.

When you career shooting percentage is .454 you will probably benefit your team by not taking such a high volume of shots, but take higher percentage shots. To put that in perspective, Kobe is currently on on pace to have his best FG% in his career this season at .479. It would mark the first time in Kobe Bryant's career he finished with a FG% higher than .470 Lebron has only had a FG% lower than .470 once in his career, his rookie season. Dwyane Wade has only shot below .470 twice. His rookie year and 07-08 (.469 so pretty close) and has a career FG% of .486.

If you exclude Jordan's time with the Wizards and the season he was hurt and the season he came out of retirement , he only shot below .480 one season, his last season with the Bulls (.465).

To put it more simply, volume of shots doesn't bother me if you are making a high percentage of them. But when you are shooting only .454 (which isn't terrible, it just isn't very good either) of your shots you aren't always helping when you are shooting 25+ times a game.

I REALLY wish that people would stop solely looking at FG% to compare players that play different. The correct stat to look at when comparing slashers to shooters (or any scorer for that matter) is points per shot attempt. Kobe's FG% is going to be lower than someone like Michael Jordan, because Jordan attacked the rim more and Kobe shoots more 3's. The typical Kobe basher will say "well, he should stop taking so many 3's", but when you look at points per shot attempt it shows that they are as close as can be scoring wise. When you look at that, it looks like this:

Kobe Bryant: 1.30

Michael Jordan: 1.31

Which brings me to my next point. Volume of shots can also be a product of your team Although Kobe definitely shot too much in 05-06 (27.2 shots per game) they also didn't have a lot of other options on that team. But when you have Metta World Peace, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, and now Steve Nash, you shouldn't have a guy shooting 25+ times a game. Not when there is no one else on that team averaging over 12 shots per game. As I stated earlier there is no reason why Kobe should be averaging as many shots per game as Gasol and Howard combined.

Kobe definitely did not shoot too much in 05-06. I'm not sure that a superstar has ever been surrounded by a worst supporting cast than Kobe Bryant was in 2005-2006.

PG: Smush Parker

SF: Lamar Odom

PF: Brian Cook

C: Kwame Brown / Chris Mihm

Devean George

Luke Walton

Sasha Vujacic

Who was he going to pass to? LOL that is an AWFUL lineup... Kobe probably didn't take enough shots.

However I do agree that Gasol and Howard need more shots, but that's a product of the offense, not because of Kobe. Under the Princeton offense with Mike Brown, Dwight was scoring 22 ppg, Gasol had the most touches overall and Kobe was averaging 17-18 shots per game. Mike D'Atoni's offense just doesn't work that well with bigs unless they are running the pick and roll. If you actually watch the Lakers play you will see that Kobe will go stretches without shooting or really touching the ball... Steve Nash controls the offense and makes all of the decisions... he just happens to realize that Kobe has been amazing on offense this year while Dwight and Gasol have been underwhelming. I do think that as the season goes on Dwight will get more shots (and I ultimately think Gasol gets traded as he just doesn't fit the offense at this juncture).

You mentioned Lebron's shots per game in your post. But while in Cleveland those shots per game steadily went down as they got better players around him. But then he went to Miami, which has Bosh and Wade, and for the last three seasons Lebron has not averaged over 19 shots per game since he has been in Miami. In Cleveland he only shot below 19 shots per game once, his rookie year. As I mentioned in another post Wade is shooting 15.4 times per game and Bosh 12.3.

LeBron is a very unselfish player. It's like Kobe said... LeBron isn't a 1 on 1 guy that is aggressively looking to score. He's a guy that's going to look to make plays for others 1st and then score (a reason why he isn't a great last shot taker -- because he isn't a great shot creator -- the offense needs to come to him). Kobe at heart is a 1 on 1 player that will always look to score first. He can create plays for others and he does make others better. He's led the Lakers in assists and has been the primary playmaker for the Lakers for the last 14 years or so... to say that he doesn't make his teammates better is mediocre at best.

There will always be times when Kobe needs to take over the game if he can. But I think in order for this incredible Lakers team with 2 MVPs and the best center in the NBA on it Kobe need to be shooting more in the 16-19 shots per game and there needs to be more balance.

Otherwise, the Lakers are only going to go as far as Kobe Bryant takes them. And it shouldn't have to be that way this year, with this team, and this much talent.

I do completely agree with you that the Lakers are a better team when Kobe is shooting under 20 times per game. Balance is always good in the NBA and everyone needs to be involved on offense to play hard on defense... it's just the way it is. The only problem is that Dwight is only 70% healthy at best, Gasol is half the man he used to be and Steve Nash can only do so much. MWP is playing his best offensively as a Laker, and Nash is fantastic, but our bigs are ineffective right now and until they get healthier we'll have to rely on Kobe Bryant to shoot 20+ times per game. If not for Kobe the Lakers would be well below .500 and that is a fact. Kobe Bryant is currently 4th in the NBA in win shares (5.6), 3rd in the NBA in wins added (9) and 2nd in the NBA in simple rating (16.3). When Kobe is off the court the Lakers are +6.2 and when Kobe is off the court the Lakers are -14.2. I agree, though... it shouldn't be like this... not this year... not when the Lakers have so much talent (injured, but talented). These other guys need to step up.

[teeray]

I REALLY wish that people would stop solely looking at FG% to compare players that play different. The correct stat to look at when comparing slashers to shooters (or any scorer for that matter) is points per shot attempt. Kobe's FG% is going to be lower than someone like Michael Jordan, because Jordan attacked the rim more and Kobe shoots more 3's. The typical Kobe basher will say "well, he should stop taking so many 3's", but when you look at points per shot attempt it shows that they are as close as can be scoring wise. When you look at that, it looks like this:

Kobe Bryant: 1.30

Michael Jordan: 1.31

Comparing points per attempt is not a good way to determine efficiency, especially in the sense of team efficiency.

I'm not going to do a PFFL way too long statistical post about why that is. But as a former basketball player I believe that it is a big time fallacy to say that a 40% 3 point shooter is as effective as a 60% 2 point shooter. Although mathematically this is true, in real game situations it is false. Or at the very least overstated and misleading.

Kobe definitely did not shoot too much in 05-06. I'm not sure that a superstar has ever been surrounded by a worst supporting cast than Kobe Bryant was in 2005-2006.

PG: Smush Parker

SF: Lamar Odom

PF: Brian Cook

C: Kwame Brown / Chris Mihm

Devean George

Luke Walton

Sasha Vujacic

Who was he going to pass to? LOL that is an AWFUL lineup... Kobe probably didn't take enough shots.

However I do agree that Gasol and Howard need more shots, but that's a product of the offense, not because of Kobe. Under the Princeton offense with Mike Brown, Dwight was scoring 22 ppg, Gasol had the most touches overall and Kobe was averaging 17-18 shots per game. Mike D'Atoni's offense just doesn't work that well with bigs unless they are running the pick and roll. If you actually watch the Lakers play you will see that Kobe will go stretches without shooting or really touching the ball... Steve Nash controls the offense and makes all of the decisions... he just happens to realize that Kobe has been amazing on offense this year while Dwight and Gasol have been underwhelming. I do think that as the season goes on Dwight will get more shots (and I ultimately think Gasol gets traded as he just doesn't fit the offense at this juncture).

I alluded to the fact that Kobe's supporting cast was pretty weak in 05-06. Even though they weren't great NBA players, they were still NBA players. You will never convince me that a perimeter player shooting on average 27.2 times a game is a good thing. you cannot run an effective offense with one guy (especially a perimeter guy) is having to take that many shots, unless that player is uniquely gifted. Off the top of my head I can only think of one person who would fit that bill and that was MJ.

LeBron is a very unselfish player. It's like Kobe said... LeBron isn't a 1 on 1 guy that is aggressively looking to score. He's a guy that's going to look to make plays for others 1st and then score (a reason why he isn't a great last shot taker -- because he isn't a great shot creator -- the offense needs to come to him). Kobe at heart is a 1 on 1 player that will always look to score first. He can create plays for others and he does make others better. He's led the Lakers in assists and has been the primary playmaker for the Lakers for the last 14 years or so... to say that he doesn't make his teammates better is mediocre at best.

Lebron is a one on one player. A great one. Probably the best one in the NBA. He just reacts to what the defense is doing. I don't want to sound like I am sucking the guy's teat too much, but he plays the game the right way. He is a guy that can dominate a game and only score 12-14 points. Kobe cannot really do that.

Lebron is way more difficult to defend than Kobe Bryant because you have to defend him and the other 4 guys on the court. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by one on one, but the game isn't played one on one. It is played 5 on 5 and Lebron could make a guy like Booby Gibson look like a legitimate player in the NBA

I do completely agree with you that the Lakers are a better team when Kobe is shooting under 20 times per game. Balance is always good in the NBA and everyone needs to be involved on offense to play hard on defense... it's just the way it is. The only problem is that Dwight is only 70% healthy at best, Gasol is half the man he used to be and Steve Nash can only do so much. MWP is playing his best offensively as a Laker, and Nash is fantastic, but our bigs are ineffective right now and until they get healthier we'll have to rely on Kobe Bryant to shoot 20+ times per game. If not for Kobe the Lakers would be well below .500 and that is a fact. Kobe Bryant is currently 4th in the NBA in win shares (5.6), 3rd in the NBA in wins added (9) and 2nd in the NBA in simple rating (16.3). When Kobe is off the court the Lakers are +6.2 and when Kobe is off the court the Lakers are -14.2. I agree, though... it shouldn't be like this... not this year... not when the Lakers have so much talent (injured, but talented). These other guys need to step up.

The first sentence of this paragraph is been my main point (outside of the public ridiculing of teammates, public calling out of coaches, undermining Shaq, and lack of self awareness). But talking strictly about his play on the court, the team is better when he shoots under 20 times a game.

The problem is he has no faith in his teammates. He has always had good players around him (with the exception of the couple of years after Shaq left) and yet he always decides the best chance for them to win is for him to shoot. He shoots them out of as many games as he wins.

But I do think that anytime you get this many good players together it takes a while for everybody to settle into new roles. For the most part Lebron and Bosh's first year in Miami was sloppy.

But I fear Kobe's play is actually slowing the process of his teammates getting into a groove, because it is the Kobe show and everyone else is a spectator.

As far as coach D'antoni goes, I didn't like that hire when it happened and I haven't seen anything to change my mind. I think he is a really good coach but his style os a bad fit for the Laker's personnel.

[h0llywood]

But I fear Kobe's play is actually slowing the process of his teammates getting into a groove, because it is the Kobe show and everyone else is a spectator.

And this is when I know you haven't watched that many Lakers games this season.

[teeray]

And this is when I know you haven't watched that many Lakers games this season.

i have watched several. I haven't caught them all, but I have seen several games.

But even so I can look at advanced statistics an see that Nash, Gasol, and Howard are all below their career usage% while Kobe's is above his career average usage%.

I saw them beat Golden State, where Kobe shot the ball 41 times making only 16 to get to 34 points while Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Steve Nash and Metta World Peace shot 40 times when combined and scored 52 points.

But since he made some big plays down the stretch everyone thinks he played great and say he carried them. .

[h0llywood]

i have watched several. I haven't caught them all, but I have seen several games.

But even so I can look at advanced statistics an see that Nash, Gasol, and Howard are all below their career usage% while Kobe's is above his career average usage%.

I saw them beat Golden State, where Kobe shot the ball 41 times making only 16 to get to 34 points while Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Steve Nash and Metta World Peace shot 40 times when combined and scored 52 points.

But since he made some big plays down the stretch everyone thinks he played great and say he carried them. .

Howard was in foul trouble early in that game eventually fouling out. Who did you expect to shoot the ball MWP?

[teeray]

Howard was in foul trouble early in that game eventually fouling out. Who did you expect to shoot the ball MWP?

With 3 other all-stars and an former MVP on the floor....

Only a die hard Laker fan would think that one guy shooting more than 4 other all-stars combined and going 16-41 from the field for only 34 points is good basketball.

You are only one game out of the West though with a dream team and Kobe saying he is playing great (i.e. it is everyone else's fault). Keep your heads up.

I'm still not sure why you guys have your panties all in a bunch. Are you that sensitive that me saying Kobe is top 20 at worst but not top 10 all-time that much of an insult??