Why is it all Rivera's fault?

[Cyberjag]

I think if Rivera gets us to 9-7 or 10-6, that will be better than most teams in the league and if it makes the playoffs, then it was a great job. Not sure why that would bring up back to a win/lose cycle.

BTW, how many great coaches are out there waiting to snap up the Panthers job if Rivera is fired. Who says the great ones don't go to Philly or somewhere else so that we end up with a retread or another unproven commodity?? I am sure that if Richardson knew who these great guys were who would win every year, we would have hired them 2 years ago or certainly now. Maybe it is only easy to see who they are in hindsight not foresight.

I am sure that if Richardson knew who these great guys were he wouldn't have let Hurney hire Rivera. :)

It's most likely a combination. You need the right coach paired with the right GM/Personnel Guy and the right team leader/playmaker, usually the quarterback. The hardest to get, IMHO, is the playmaker who can put the team on his shoulders and do great things on the field. HOPEFULLY we have that in Newton, and we may have something special in Keuchly as well. So lots to be excited about there.

Hurney/Fox was clearly better than Hurney/Rivera, and whoever the new GM is, he has to be able to get the guy he can work with who will be able to, in turn, work with the existing players. The alternative is to blow up the roster, which none of us want. I hate the idea of putting a constraint on the GM where the head coach is concerned right out of the gate, I think it will potentially hamper his ability to deliver a winning program. And again, history shows that when a new GM keeps a coach who hasn't been successful yet, the team doesn't go anywhere and the coach ends up getting fired anyway.

I like Rivera, but I like winning more and at this point I'm sick of believing in a team that shows promise. I would rather play the odds, get a good GM and let him pick his guy. If that guy is Rivera, great. But it will be a big surprise to me.

[Mr. Scot]

It may be, but I think Mr Scot wants you to be right. :)

JJ didn't have free agency. There's a reason I've added a modern era qualifier to my questions. Prior to free agency, the model you and many others prefer was pretty much the only way to build a consistent winner.

I think the only reason it's not a question of whether there are any coaches that didn't do it in two years but built sustained success is because there aren't any. Or maybe there's one, maybe two. I sure didn't find them when I went and looked, and neither you nor Scot is able to come up with one.

So what we're all hoping for here, is that if Rivera stays, he becomes the first one to do it. It could happen. :)

He had Plan B free agency through 92, unrestricted free agency In 93, and no salary cap through any of it.

Still, what he benefited from the most was an idiot running the Vikings.

[Cyberjag]

You do realize what Plan B was, right? I mean, if you're going to say that JJ had that as an option, great. But the best you could hope for with Plan B was maybe scoring a good Special teams player. It was so anti-player that they sued the NFL, and won.

[Mr. Scot]

You do realize what Plan B was, right? I mean, if you're going to say that JJ had that as an option, great. But the best you could hope for with Plan B was maybe scoring a good Special teams player. It was so anti-player that they sued the NFL, and won.

That's why I pointed out that he got the greatest benefit from the Herschel Walker trade.

[panthers55]

It may be, but I think Mr Scot wants you to be right. :)

JJ didn't have free agency. There's a reason I've added a modern era qualifier to my questions. Prior to free agency, the model you and many others prefer was pretty much the only way to build a consistent winner.

I think the only reason it's not a question of whether there are any coaches that didn't do it in two years but built sustained success is because there aren't any. Or maybe there's one, maybe two. I sure didn't find them when I went and looked, and neither you nor Scot is able to come up with one.

So what we're all hoping for here, is that if Rivera stays, he becomes the first one to do it. It could happen. :)

He wouldn't be the first even among active coaches. How about Kubiak who struggled mightily and is now in year 2 into building a consistent winner. If we want to look at current head coaches who had losing records their first 2 years and went to the playoffs the third year. We can add Pete Carroll who had back to back 7-9 seasons and is in the playoffs a second year in a row. How about Shanahan who struggled the past 2 years and is in the playoffs this year. Need more?

[Cyberjag]

Kubiak is a perfect example, I should have thought of him. Took him four seasons to post his first winning record and six to make the playoffs. I'm sure that Rivera can do better, right? :)

Carroll isn't the best example, because he's got a winning history. One season in New York where he lost, then three straight in New England where he won right out of the gate. So you kind of already have proof he's capable of winning.

But there's Kubiak. Seven years in and he finally got back to back winning seasons. I hope that retaining Rivera doesn't mean that we experience the same, but you have shown that it IS possible. :)

[panthers55]

And again, history shows that when a new GM keeps a coach who hasn't been successful yet, the team doesn't go anywhere and the coach ends up getting fired anyway.

Casserly hired Kubiak in January of 2006 and was replaced by Rick Smith in June. Smith kept Kubiak through 3 non winning seasons then after a 9-7 year they regressed to 6-10 in 2010. Smith stayed the course and they had consecutive winning seasons in 2011 and 2012,

[Cyberjag]

I stand corrected! :)

Maybe we can be like the Texans then. I'll go reserve my 2016 playoff tickets now!

[Mr. Scot]

I'm not that tied to Rivera. honestly. If he were fired I wouldn't scream.

But with that said, I'm not convinced that firing him is the right move. And I'm definitely not convinced that just replacing the coach is enough to turn the team into a winner.

My top choice: Give Rivera a season with the new GM in place and see what happens.

[panthers55]

Kubiak is a perfect example, I should have thought of him. Took him four seasons to post his first winning record and six to make the playoffs. I'm sure that Rivera can do better, right? :)

Carroll isn't the best example, because he's got a winning history. One season in New York where he lost, then three straight in New England where he won right out of the gate. So you kind of already have proof he's capable of winning.

But there's Kubiak. Seven years in and he finally got back to back winning seasons. I hope that retaining Rivera doesn't mean that we experience the same, but you have shown that it IS possible. :)

Carroll and Shanahan are good examples of coaches that struggled but are now in the playoffs. If you say they aren't good examples because they have a winning history lets remember than that isn't any guarantee they will be successful in their next gig. Look at Mariucci who was wildly successful in San Francisco and then went to Detroit and they stank. Or even our own Seifert. Maybe it was a San Fran thing but past success doesn't guarantee anything.

[panthers55]

I stand corrected! :)

Maybe we can be like the Texans then. I'll go reserve my 2016 playoff tickets now!

No need for the heavy sarcasm. You asserted it doesn't happen I showed you where it did.

The reason Houston struggled so mightily was lack of a healthy franchise quarterback and playing in a tough division. Plus of course being an expansion team. In many ways it mirrors some of the reasons we have struggled as well in the past 4 years.

[toldozer]

The Indianapolis Colts and Washington Redskins would like a word...

The two best starting seasons in NFL HISTORY for a quarterback and both end in losing seasons while Andrew Luck and RG3 are in the playoffs in their first seasons.

As a Panthers fan, that is infuriating.

Neither of those teams are winning a super bowl anytime soon. Washington will NEVER win a championship with their current roster. Cam will win a super bowl before luck and the great rgiii will never win if he stays a redskin

[Kevin Greene]

I'm not gonna make a Mr. Scot's length post. I'm sorry if you expected that.

I just wanna know why this board seems to blame Rivera only, even though we have a serious lack in talent and experience. Why is it so impossible for you guys to put the blame on the players and assistant coaches as well?

It's pretty simple,

If the players dont win on the field in the NFL it's a result of several factors.

Either they dont have the skill necessary or aren't coached well enough.

I'd say it's a combination of both, we have had a total of 3 Playoff appearences in the last 16 years.

So the blame lies with:

The GM, selecting the talent on draft day.

The head Coach, in charge overall and responsible for assistant coach hires.

And the Players, who if they lack the necessary Coaching or skill or worse yet intestinal fortitude to succeed on the field are a direct result of the program that put them on the field.

Also, have you been reading the Huddle and seen the amount of flack Chud, McDermott and whatever flavor of the month Special teams coach gets hurled at them?

[NanuqoftheNorth]

Carroll and Shanahan are good examples of coaches that struggled but are now in the playoffs. If you say they aren't good examples because they have a winning history lets remember than that isn't any guarantee they will be successful in their next gig. Look at Mariucci who was wildly successful in San Francisco and then went to Detroit and they stank. Or even our own Seifert. Maybe it was a San Fran thing but past success doesn't guarantee anything.

I think all the coaches you have listed are good examples of why, no matter how talented they are, without a strong organization to support them, head coaches tend to fail.

To me, it is looking more and more like the wrong guy was let go in 2010, Fox should have been retained and Hurney should have been dismissed.

Until the Panthers organization commits to a total solution, top to bottom, and give up on this "Mom and Pop" approach they have been using since the second year of their existence, they are likely to continue to be a losing franchise.