Steve Smith needs 105 yards

[CRA]

That rookie rushing record has already been topped by RGIII with 2 games left. And rushing TDs are not really germaine to the discussion of whether we need running backs or not. SO really the only record he will have is rushing TDs and other teams prefer their running backs do the dirty work. Not sure how they has anything to do with why we shouldn't have a running game. The fact that he accounted for 15 last year and is on schedule for half that this year makes the case for a feature running back not diminish it. Unless you think he should run it more.

Again, that doesn't mean Cam wasn't rewriting the record book while we were over investing in RBs. 2011 actually happened. RGIII didn't wipe the reality of 2011 away.....and RGIII isn't even close to the TD record. Nor has he proven to be as efficient as Newton was (you know, moving the chains and converting 3rd downs). Not an official stat but Cam also converted more 3rd downs than any RB last year as well.

An again, no one here has even hinted we shouldn't have a run game. LMFAO.

The days of Emmitt Smith are dying. You don't need a featured RB. 3-4 guys can make up a ground attack. You don't need one primary runner you showcase. The logic of using 3-4 runners to make up your ground attack is also thrown out the window when you pay them like we did.

Nighty night.

[panthers55]

I am saying you need NEITHER an elite paid RB nor a RB you feed the ball 20 times a game to. You just need RBs that serve roles and fit what you do....and that is more so the case when you have someone unique like Cam at QB.

And again, your entire RB argument is if used Double Trouble how you see fit....it is worth it. But we don't and aren't. You basically say, it is irreverent that in reality we drastically overpay the RB position.....bc we technically could pound them 30-40 times a game.

An I would say you are totally wrong. We do need a running back we can feed the ball 20 times a game just like we fed the ball the ball to Williams 22 times last Sunday.

BTW lets clear up a misconception here. Did you know that New England is 8th in rushing yards this year? Did you know that they have run the ball 457 times for an average of 32 times a game. Did you know that Stevan Ridley has 252 carries for 1172 yards and 10 TDs. So to say we don't need a ground game because Bradley doesn't have one is wrong once again.

Go ahead and make the same tired argument you always make which is that RIdley isn't expensive since he is on his rookie contract and we could have gotten someone cheaper.. We already agree that there are many productive running backs that are cheap. And if they are willing to part with Ridley when his contract is up and not pay him a premium in 2015 they can get by cheaper by signing another rookie.

And no my argument is not that if we run them more that they are worth it. I said that since we did sign them that we should we should be running them a lot to get more value out of them. It is true I don't have the big issue with them that you do but I have never said I would have paid them that much. I said if you remember that Williams was paid to reward him for not getting paid for 5 years before that, to signal to the team and Stewart that we would pay our players, and we paid a premium because Richardson gutted the team in 2010 and frankly no one wanted to play for us after a 2-14 season. It was the same reason we paid so much for Johnson. And if we didn't have so many holes on the team we could have drafted a RB high. Funny how when you put things in context it is so much clearer.

[panthers55]

Again, that doesn't mean Cam wasn't rewriting the record book while we were over investing in RBs. 2011 actually happened. RGIII didn't wipe the reality of 2011 away.....and RGIII isn't even close to the TD record. Nor has he proven to be as efficient as Newton was (you know, moving the chains and converting 3rd downs). Not an official stat but Cam also converted more 3rd downs than any RB last year as well.

An again, no one here has even hinted we shouldn't have a run game. LMFAO.

The days of Emmitt Smith are dying. You don't need a featured RB. 3-4 guys can make up a ground attack. You don't need one primary runner you showcase. The logic of using 3-4 runners to make up your ground attack is also thrown out the window when you pay them like we did.

Nighty night.

You talk in circles so much it is lucky you don't get vertigo. RGIII has 140 yards on 4 more carries. He also has 43 - 20 + yard scrambles out of total of 112. He is converting roughly 40% of his rushes to first downs. He is averaging 6.8 yards a carry. He has 6 TDs.

Compare that with Newton's 50- 20+ yard scrambles out of a total of 108. He is converting roughly 36% of his rushing attempts into first downs. He is averaging 6 yards a carry. He has 7 TDs.

So if you look at it they are about even.

And who says that Washington doesn't have a feature back. They have Alfred Morris who has 280 carries and 1322 yards- 9 Tds. No the running game isn't dying. In fact Peterson is likely to break the record for most rushing yards by a back ever which has stood for 4 decades.

Stop believing all the hype and do your own homework.

[panthers55]

"First of all the contracts have not been ridiculous up to this point. Williams who makes the lion share is getting paid 4.75 million this year as a salary. With the signing bonus the hit to the cap is roughly 8 million. Stewart as a salary is making $875,000 with a signing bonus of 1.9 million or a total of 2.75 million."

Go add up all the #s and you'll finally see the point everyone is tryin to make. Here we have a combined cap hit of over 10 million. Yet our QB leads the team in rushing. You're saying "if we had used them more"....well we didn't. Therefore the contracts aren't justified. GM and staff weren't on same page. The season ended up a waste. Because of philosophy disconnect

This was the quote from my post on page 3 above yours.

Hurney was fired for reasons, one of which I suspect was giving big bucks to Williams and Stewart and not having the OC on the same page. Either Williams or Stewart would be fine to keep, but without a big running game not both.

This is your quote further down the page.

I had no issue signing 2 talented players if we were going to run an offense that utilized them/justified the amount of $ given to them. Clear disconnect between the GM and what staff attempted to do with this offense.

We said the same thing or you copied me, take your pick. In either case I was the one who told you that no one could justify the cost of the RBs based on what they did. I do think that if we had featured Williams and Stewart and they had combined for 2000 yards total it wouldn't have been so bad. Instead they have combined for 1156 yards and 8 TDs. Clearly not enough.

[pantherclaw]

Amazing....even after how poorly the staff used him early on in the season. Playing loyalty/favoritism towards Beason

your post bothers me.

I can't think of any coach who would start a rookie lb at the mike lb spot over a all pro mlb.

[CRA]

Here is a p55 conversation.....

CRA - teams are moving away from the Emmitt Smith ways where they pay big bucks to a single RB to carry it 30 times a game. Too easy to find cheap productive options and the the NFL has altered rules to make passing near irresistible.

P55 - I see. So you don't think we should even have a RB on the roster and should pass every down.

I mean, you twist everything and give someone a stance they never have taken.

It is a flawed stat but the gap is HUGE. Why don't you do some deep thoughts and look at the QBR for RGIII and Newton. Look at running aspect of it.....why do you suppose the gap is so huge if Newton and RGIIII are comparable runners. Cam's runs are better. More impact

[panthers55]

Hahahahahahaha what kind of candyland, fantasy island are you living on? Hellooooo if you cut or trade these players/contracts you incur penalty and it accelerates their cap hit...

Not gotten who we wanted? What? We've ignored free agent splashes for how many seasons now? These contracts along with other players who don't produce or are on IR/coming off big injuries/ and aging,.that cripples the flexibility of what the next GM can do. We've been through cap issues before...but there are some unique and significant issues regarding this offseason and the cap that frankly haven't been present before. Doom and gloom...haha....just stating what's on the table. It's gonna be interesting...

Again with your insults...haha. You're the man...

Our philosophy was building through the draft, trading for key pieces and supplementing with free agency. We have had that philosophy fo the past 3 years. And it was Fox not winning in 2009 when he had the guys he wanted that caused the change in philosophy. Again we have 8 million in cap space, we could have used it if we wanted to.

Disagree with the philosophy if you want but again who did we go after that we didn't get? 2 years ago we got Shockey, traded for Olsen resigned Johnson who was the top free agent at his position. We signed Ron Edwards, Nannee, Hangartner and a number of other guys. No big names but solid guys. Same thing in 2012,

If you have been a Panther fan for the whole time you would be leery of the big name pick ups. I can name you a ton of busts as well. Tell me how it worked out for the Eagles the past 2 years.....

[panthers55]

Here is a p55 conversation.....

CRA - teams are moving away from the Emmitt Smith ways where they pay big bucks to a single RB to carry it 30 times a game. Too easy to find cheap productive options and the the NFL has altered rules to make passing near irresistible.

P55 - I see. So you don't think we should even have a RB on the roster and should pass every down.

I mean, you twist everything and give someone a stance they never have taken.

It is a flawed stat but the gap is HUGE. Why don't you do some deep thoughts and look at the QBR for RGIII and Newton. Look at running aspect of it.....why do you suppose the gap is so huge if Newton and RGIIII are comparable runners. Cam's runs are better. More impact

Projection-the defense mechanism where you ascribe to other people traits that you possess.

Show me where I said those words exactly. I didn't. When you can't quote me you just make it up.

As for the rest,

And now Cam's runs are better because RGIIIs quarterback rating is higher? And there is a running aspect to the QBR??? And Cam's runs are better even though they have similar long runs and Griffin is averaging almost a yard more per run and accounts for more first downs????

Honestly there was a reason I stopped posting here and this thread is a primary example. Not only is it hard to have a meaningful football conversation here, but posters want to win an argument so badly they make up their own conversations ascribing things to posters they never said trying to exxagerate the stances in an attempt to convince others they are right.

Reminds me of the just completed political debates. Maybe we need one of those truth in reporting segments so it i clear that what was just said was made up.......

[Rubi]

Our philosophy was building through the draft, trading for key pieces and supplementing with free agency. We have had that philosophy fo the past 3 years. And it was Fox not winning in 2009 when he had the guys he wanted that caused the change in philosophy. Again we have 8 million in cap space, we could have used it if we wanted to.

Disagree with the philosophy if you want but again who did we go after that we didn't get? 2 years ago we got Shockey, traded for Olsen resigned Johnson who was the top free agent at his position. We signed Ron Edwards, Nannee, Hangartner and a number of other guys. No big names but solid guys. Same thing in 2012,

If you have been a Panther fan for the whole time you would be leery of the big name pick ups. I can name you a ton of busts as well. Tell me how it worked out for the Eagles the past 2 years.....

Naane...good one there...our philosophy of building through the draft only works if you acquire draft picks...and then not miss on your picks. We traded away several high picks for guys no longer on the roster or for guys who do not contribute/produce at a high level. I understand that every pick can't be a homerun...but most of them better be solid if the strategy is to build strictly through the draft. We "build" through the draft yet we trade away picks...face palm.....traded away a 2nd round pick and used a 3rd round selection on Armanti Edwards...face palm....the guy has 3 or 4 catches. Its inexcusable decisions like this that have hurt this team. If Hurney wanted Edwards so bad, he didnt need to trade away a 2nd round pick for him...and if some other team picked him....who freaking cares??

I mean you've argued with me about Beason not being hurt....I proved you wrong...showed you sources saying he missed preseason due to a hamstring injury...the guy said himself he was only 80% and then he injured his hamstring...probably lead to the knee issue...went on IR again....clearly not healthy to begin with......

You've argued with me about "instincts" on a football field.....get a life man..really?

You've argued with several people about the RB cap situation....

my stance on the rb situation.....we could have afforded to let one walk (Williams)....but we resigned him to a huge deal based on previous years..(not a good reason IMO)....then we end up re-signing Stewart..his cap hit will increase to $9 mil. soon.....I said months ago that if we hand out huge money like that we better pound the poo out of the ball on the ground...i have no problem being a power running team if thats what we want our identity to be...whatever......but we ran a gimmick college offense....that makes the contract situation a dibacle...and now we are stuck with it....so we better get our money's worth. We better run a traditional offense next season.

[Rubi]

your post bothers me.

I can't think of any coach who would start a rookie lb at the mike lb spot over a all pro mlb.

If he was healthy....maybe not...

Dude wasn't healthy though....and we landed a freak LB with the 9th pick. No point in arguing because its history and its a non issue any more. Kuechly is the mike now.

[panthers55]

doublepost

[Rubi]

We said the same thing or you copied me, take your pick. In either case I was the one who told you that no one could justify the cost of the RBs based on what they did. I do think that if we had featured Williams and Stewart and they had combined for 2000 yards total it wouldn't have been so bad. Instead they have combined for 1156 yards and 8 TDs. Clearly not enough.

Oh you were the one who told me....oh ok...this board has been talking about this crap for how long? I guess you just told me this now oh gotcha...got it!!

I didnt copy you...i just didnt care to read what you said at the time haha.

and 1156 yds and 8 tds...you could probably find a 6th rounder making the league minimum for the production...i mean other teams have done it...right?

[pantherclaw]

If he was healthy....maybe not...

Dude wasn't healthy though....and we landed a freak LB with the 9th pick. No point in arguing because its history and its a non issue any more. Kuechly is the mike now.Im

I'm not arguing. Just stated a fact. You can disagree if you wish.

[panthers55]

Naane...good one there...our philosophy of building through the draft only works if you acquire draft picks...and then not miss on your picks. We traded away several high picks for guys no longer on the roster or for guys who do not contribute/produce at a high level. I understand that every pick can't be a homerun...but most of them better be solid if the strategy is to build strictly through the draft. We "build" through the draft yet we trade away picks...face palm.....traded away a 2nd round pick and used a 3rd round selection on Armanti Edwards...face palm....the guy has 3 or 4 catches. Its inexcusable decisions like this that have hurt this team. If Hurney wanted Edwards so bad, he didnt need to trade away a 2nd round pick for him...and if some other team picked him....who freaking cares??

I mean you've argued with me about Beason not being hurt....I proved you wrong...showed you sources saying he missed preseason due to a hamstring injury...the guy said himself he was only 80% and then he injured his hamstring...probably lead to the knee issue...went on IR again....clearly not healthy to begin with......

You've argued with me about "instincts" on a football field.....get a life man..really?

You've argued with several people about the RB cap situation....

my stance on the rb situation.....we could have afforded to let one walk (Williams)....but we resigned him to a huge deal based on previous years..(not a good reason IMO)....then we end up re-signing Stewart..his cap hit will increase to $9 mil. soon.....I said months ago that if we hand out huge money like that we better pound the poo out of the ball on the ground...i have no problem being a power running team if thats what we want our identity to be...whatever......but we ran a gimmick college offense....that makes the contract situation a dibacle...and now we are stuck with it....so we better get our money's worth. We better run a traditional offense next season.

So lets go over your victories here. You said Beason was hurt all preseason with a hamstring injury that magically disappeared by week 1 where he had 10 tackles. And he wasn't taking it easy??? The 80% he said when asked how he was doing back in June. He said in week 3 of the preseason that he would only play a few series if he was 100%, First of all how much do starters play in preseason to begin with?? A few series except for game 3 ?? How much did Davis play? One or two series in game three. So what does that prove? That Beason was hurt and shouldn't play or that they were being cautious and gearing toward opening day when he was apparently 100%.

As for instincts here is an article saying that natural instincts are a myth, They are derived from classical conditioning and operant conditioning. Substitute repetition and preparation.

http://tapzfootball....tball-athletes/

But no they are not natural but are learned. So no kuechly didn't have the natural ability to just excel in our defense, He is a quick study, outworks everyone and stayed long hours every day learning what he needed to know.

And as far as the many people on the RB situation it is the same folks arguing ad naueum about the same pet peeves. Hardly a knowledgeable or representative sample of this message board but those that have axes to grind.