Busy day for Bears

[frash.exe]

I remember seeing this clip of Delhomme completing a 0-10 yarder to Kris Mangum or Nick goings while being almost turned upside down by Broncos defenders in 2004.

He's had his share of those plays but none the caliber of the play Eli Manning made in 3rd and 5. Adalius Thomas, Jarvis Green and Richard Seymour all had their hands on Manning, and the latter two just about secured him for a sack before he pulled away. Pass protection was miserable on that play. Great elusiveness, great throw, and a great catch by Tyree.

[dimbee]

I wouldn't really call Eli's pass a "good throw." He kinda threw it up there with a hope and a prayer... great elusiveness, yes. Great catch, yes. Great pass? Not so much, IMO

[Darth Hater]

That play was pure luck on Eli's part and all skill on Tyree's part. I still don't think baby Manning is that great of a QB, the abscence of jump balls to Burress will reveal that.

[Brandon]

Raging Bull vs Brandon

ding ding ding!

What can I say, I love a good debate and this is one of the best I've had in a long time.

I remember seeing this clip of Delhomme completing a 0-10 yarder to Kris Mangum or Nick goings while being almost turned upside down by Broncos defenders in 2004.

He's had his share of those plays but none the caliber of the play Eli Manning made in 3rd and 5. Adalius Thomas, Jarvis Green and Richard Seymour all had their hands on Manning, and the latter two just about secured him for a sack before he pulled away. Pass protection was miserable on that play. Great elusiveness, great throw, and a great catch by Tyree.

It was a great job of getting away from the defenders, great adjustment on the ball by Tyree and a spectacular catch, but the throw itself was just a hail mary. Not taking anything away from Eli because that play helped beat on of my least favorite teams, but that play alone shouldn't define his career. He hasn't really done anything like that before or since.

I wouldn't really call Eli's pass a "good throw." He kinda threw it up there with a hope and a prayer... great elusiveness, yes. Great catch, yes. Great pass? Not so much, IMO

Pretty much.

[frash.exe]

Teams don't defend the pass by simply putting more defenders back into coverage. There is this thing called blitzing, not sure if you've heard of it. Regardless Denver has had a consistently good running game, so I don't know where you're getting this from. Shanahan ran a much more vertical passing scheme last year than what I would consider WCO.

Out of 616 pass attempts Jay Cutler faced 160 blitzes. So it's not like they rushed extra defenders against him as much as you'd like to believe. As a matter of fact he faced less blitzing per pass attempt than Delhomme did (123/414).

You asked if Delhomme can even throw for 500 passes. You obviously didn't check before you asked the question. And before you start thinking, "oh well that must have been a bad year for him", no it wasn't.

In his prime in 2004 he did. But it isn't 2004 anymore. It's 2009. Brandon, we're waiting for you to join us 5 years later, where Delhomme's efficiency has waned some.

So where in Ben's motorcycle accident, or ever, has Ben said the wrong things to the press?

aaaaannnnnnd you still don't get it. Actions speak louder than words. It's not all about the Press Conference my friend.

You sir are deluded if you think quarterbacks should be expected to make such plays in any regularity.

Where did I say that?

Regardless you must forget the play Jake made in the very SB you mention, where he cleared out of a collapsing pocket evading two Patriot pass rushers and hitting Moose dead on while still on the move, and that play went for a touchdown.

The 85 yarder? Nobody touched Delhomme in that play and that was the only Delhomme to Moose play that went for a touchdown, and he had much better protection there than Manning did.

First, you were still wrong about the sack totals, no matter how you slice it. Don't try and marginalize it since you said Eli does better while being sacked more than Jake does, which was untrue. In a 500 attempt game it's still about 2 sacks worth of a difference. But as you said Eli was going up against more top defenses so that means his offensive line was doing that much better of a job. *gasp* See how that works?

You just don't get it. You can't understand that he's not better than Manning. It's okay. You'll live.

So I couldn't prove Eli got sacked more than Delhomme career-wise, you still haven't proven to me that the Giants offensive line is in another league of pass protection over the Panthers for a whole period of years like you said. Manning only had about 480 attempts, which was only about 65 more attempts than Delhomme had. Eli Manning was pressured 14.5% of the time compared to Delhomme which was 12.5% of the time per the research I did.

QB rating is the best stat out there for QB's. I still have yet to see you prove how Eli is better than Jake. Not even as a passer is he better, let alone as a leader.

LOL you have absolutely no concept of the criticism Manning weathered pre-superbowl 42. As long as he hadn't taken the team to the superbowl he was an automatic bust in the NY media's eyes. Delhomme has never felt the pressure on the kind of scale Eli has felt in Carolina. He never had to open up the Sunday news and read some article by a Giants beat writer going on and on about how he had no faith in him.

Even if Delhomme was better than Manning as the players they are now, which isn't true, Manning is years ahead of Delhomme as a player. I ask you what the fug did Delhomme do his first five years in the league besides ride the pine 98% of the time? Meanwhile, in just his 4th season, Manning helps lead the Giants to a superbowl win against a previously undefeated Patriots team.

These are just some of the factors you just don't seem to think about and instead because most of the examples of leadership you've digested is Jake Delhomme leads this win and that win, and yadda yadda yadda, and nobody in the Carolina media questions anything, it's pretty much happy-go-lucky pro-Delhomme fluff that gets thrown around. Where were Jake's exceptional leadership skills against Arizona? Does it make Jake better that he doesn't protect the ball as well as Manning does for 2008 despite less pass attempts and against poorer defenses? Does it make Jake better that he has pretty much gotten worse while Manning has improved? Does it make Jake better that it's taken him much longer to get a grasp of the game than Manning? Apparently it does in your mind.

which is why you just don't understand and you're not ready for this kind of painful truth to be brought to you. Maybe after another year it'll become apparent.

[Brandon]

Out of 616 pass attempts Jay Cutler faced 160 blitzes. So it's not like they rushed extra defenders against him as much as you'd like to believe. As a matter of fact he faced less blitzing per pass attempt than Delhomme did (123/414).

I'm curious where you got your statistic, and your pressure statistics. Not discrediting them but I think I could show you something pretty special with them. With 160 blitzes that is a 25% rate of blitzing, and only 11 sacks total (including plays which didn't necessarily have blitzes) is simply spectacular. Cutler's pass protection was far and away the best in the league last year, I'm not sure why you're arguing it.

In his prime in 2004 he did. But it isn't 2004 anymore. It's 2009. Brandon, we're waiting for you to join us 5 years later, where Delhomme's efficiency has waned some.

You don't like the answer so you change the premise? So basically it's prove Jake is a decent QB but I can't use any evidence more than two years old. Yes he can still 500 times in a season but I don't want him to because it's not necessary.

aaaaannnnnnd you still don't get it. Actions speak louder than words. It's not all about the Press Conference my friend.

Where did I say that?

So you mean action. As in singularity. Ben has been a consummate professional and a great leader, and has willed his team back from sure defeat against some of the greatest defenses the NFL has seen in this decade.

Based on your responses with FB.

The 85 yarder? Nobody touched Delhomme in that play and that was the only Delhomme to Moose play that went for a touchdown, and he had much better protection there than Manning did.

Go back and watch it again, that is an insanely difficult throw to make, and look at how accurate it was for being that long of a pass in the air.

You just don't get it. You can't understand that he's not better than Manning. It's okay. You'll live.

So I couldn't prove Eli got sacked more than Delhomme career-wise, you still haven't proven to me that the Giants offensive line is in another league of pass protection over the Panthers for a whole period of years like you said. Manning only had about 480 attempts, which was only about 65 more attempts than Delhomme had. Eli Manning was pressured 14.5% of the time compared to Delhomme which was 12.5% of the time per the research I did.

Eli was playing against one of the blitz happiest divisions in all of football, I'm not sure why that's hard to understand. Even more to the point he had to include the next blitz happiest in the AFC North. I doubt many offensive lines could provide the pass protection that the Giants' line did against the Cowboys twice, the Eagles twice, the Steelers, the Ravens, and the Vikings. Only being sacked 27 times when the average sacks of their opponents was 37 is insane.

LOL you have absolutely no concept of the criticism Manning weathered pre-superbowl 42. As long as he hadn't taken the team to the superbowl he was an automatic bust in the NY media's eyes. Delhomme has never felt the pressure on the kind of scale Eli has felt in Carolina. He never had to open up the Sunday news and read some article by a Giants beat writer going on and on about how he had no faith in him.

Way to assume. I read a lot of media on a lot of other teams, I know that the Chicago/Philly/NY media is extremely critical of anything and everything involving their sports teams but give me a break. We both know Delhomme is the kind of guy to put more pressure on himself than anyone else can, even though this isn't a trait I exactly like.

Even if Delhomme was better than Manning as the players they are now, which isn't true, Manning is years ahead of Delhomme as a player. I ask you what the fug did Delhomme do his first five years in the league besides ride the pine 98% of the time? Meanwhile, in just his 4th season, Manning helps lead the Giants to a superbowl win against a previously undefeated Patriots team.

These are just some of the factors you just don't seem to think about and instead because most of the examples of leadership you've digested is Jake Delhomme leads this win and that win, and yadda yadda yadda, and nobody in the Carolina media questions anything, it's pretty much happy-go-lucky pro-Delhomme fluff that gets thrown around. Where were Jake's exceptional leadership skills against Arizona? Does it make Jake better that he doesn't protect the ball as well as Manning does for 2008 despite less pass attempts and against poorer defenses? Does it make Jake better that he has pretty much gotten worse while Manning has improved? Does it make Jake better that it's taken him much longer to get a grasp of the game than Manning? Apparently it does in your mind.

which is why you just don't understand and you're not ready for this kind of painful truth to be brought to you. Maybe after another year it'll become apparent.

Kurt Warner led his team to a SB win after being written off by everyone in the league and was on the cusp of never even seeing an NFL snap in his life. Warren Moon had to spend 5 years in the CFL before anyone would pay attention to him. These sort of debates are pointless, because Delhomme was screwed by one of the worst run teams in the NFL. I can't believe you're trying to use the Saints as an example in this at all... Seriously.

Tell me, do you honestly think it's a good statistical reference to use the year after coming back from TJ surgery to determine the quality of a pitcher? Then how can you honestly use it to determine the quality of a QB. I was more disgusted with ANYONE here after the Arizona game, period. But I came to my senses and took a look back and saw what happened the last time he had a week off (Raiders) and how that shouldn't be used as a reference point every time someone brings Jake up. He had an awful game, but to not give him another year of objective observation after such an injury is daft.

Also, it's becoming more clear to me that you don't understand the meaning of leadership. It's about getting the people around you to play for you, to give you their best. It's about running the team in whatever capacity your position allows. Having a bad game or good game in no way relates to leadership. It does relate to some other intangibles but you didn't mention those.

Tell me how it's taken Jake longer to get a grasp of the game than Manning? I'm very curious to see how you can honestly determine this, considering it's impossible to prove one way or another. You're putting out too many unsolvable problems, and doing so on purpose, and it's a rather weak tactic.

You keep harping on the SB for why Eli is any good, but his defense was good enough to help him win the game. If our defense played that well we would have won the SB. Instead it completely collapsed against the Patriots. You like to talk about how some players had a better supporting cast and shouldn't be blamed. In fact the Giants have also had a better defense over the past 6 years than the Panthers have, so let's play that card too. I'm sure you'll keep changing the rules halfway through but the fact remains Eli had a few moments in the sun surrounded by a lot of nothing. If his defense didn't hold against the Patriots, noone would be talking about him. Just think about that.

[Fireball77]

Not only the D, but Eli has also had the constant support throughout his entire career of a great run game.

I like Eli, as I have said a billion times.

He did a very nice job in that playoff run. He was one of the reasons they won those games.

He was NOT phenomenal in the SB though. Had the Pats DBs not missed on some easy plays, he would have had 2-3 picks. Not great defensive play picks, or deflections, etc. mind you, easy drops/misses by their DBs. That play to Tyree was a play that if Jake made it, people would say it was all Smitty (like that last throw in GB).

Eli is not a better player, no way. He isn't even as accurate as Jake and never has been in his career except this past year and Jake's accuracy is average. He didn't even outplay post surgery Jake in their game this past year if all you want to hear is recent stuff. Sure Jake sat on the bench for years and Eli didn't. A little thing like draft position and dollars invested probably had a lot to do with that. You think a guy like JP Losman or Kyle Boller would have stuck with their original teams as long as they had if they hadn't been 1st round draft picks? Certainly their performances never warranted keeping a starting gig. That's the way it is with every position in the NFL as a first rounder but especially with QBs. You invest so much, you stick with them as long as possible and give them every chance to succeed/play.

And both of them and Pennington in their last playoff game had a bad game. Who gets more national criticism for their last game though to the point that a lot of media and fans don't think he should even have a job anymore? Yes I know it was worse than those two, but the point is they were all bad, none of those teams won a single playoff game last year after a good regular season.

The NY media is tough, no question and it is one thing I really admire about Eli is that he has always handled it well. To say that Jake hasn't had to deal with the NY media hence couldn't isn't something I think is fair though because it isn't based on handling tough questions/situations poorly ever. He's always met media criticism and tough questions head on. I am not sure where you are getting that feeling that he avoids questions just because he doesn't look directly at the camera at all times when answering questions. In fact, he usually brings up his errors before they even question him about them. 6 years ago (the past you don't want to hear about) and now (the present you are more concerned with).

[Darth Hater]

Mods please kill this thread. Brandon likes Delhomme and Raging Bull likes Eli...end of story.

[dimbee]

Why kill it? That's ghey

[mantal]

Wow, why are we breaking down Jake, Eli and others to prove anything about Cutler, he's got an arm, period. It's whether his leadership is there, period. Chicago is happy, period, let it die...

I mean seriously, did you guys just get into a huge pissing contest between Jake and Eli to try to prove a point about Cutler, seriously?...

[dimbee]

Oh, the many twists and turns of carolinahuddle.com!

[frash.exe]

I'm curious where you got your statistic, and your pressure statistics. Not discrediting them but I think I could show you something pretty special with them. With 160 blitzes that is a 25% rate of blitzing, and only 11 sacks total (including plays which didn't necessarily have blitzes) is simply spectacular. Cutler's pass protection was far and away the best in the league last year, I'm not sure why you're arguing it.

I used the passing splits on each QB's stat page on SI.

I'm not arguing about the sack total I agreed with you on that part, I argued your allusion to that defenses blitzed more against Jay Cutler to try and get more pressure on him. Cutler was actually blitzed less than Delhomme.

You don't like the answer so you change the premise? So basically it's prove Jake is a decent QB but I can't use any evidence more than two years old. Yes he can still 500 times in a season but I don't want him to because it's not necessary.

That question was basically asked on a "here and now" basis. 5 years ago Brett Favre could have thrown 500 passes with ease, yet now his shoulder gets tired by game 11. Also don't forget the more you throw the harder it is to maintain a good passer rating and not throw picks.

So you mean action. As in singularity. Ben has been a consummate professional and a great leader, and has willed his team back from sure defeat against some of the greatest defenses the NFL has seen in this decade.

Ben made a mistake and he got over it and he's still a hell of a damn good QB. It's not all about how many non-answers you give in a press conference it's also about what you do off the field. That's why people have so many problems with draft prospects who have criminal records, etc. Roethlisberger had a hiccup so he's not perfect but that doesn't make him any less of a leader or a team player.

Go back and watch it again, that is an insanely difficult throw to make, and look at how accurate it was for being that long of a pass in the air.

Not really, I mean the only thing that could've been hard was the distance, but then again I saw 43 year old Vinny Testaverde toss a pass that got 44 yards of air off the couch (not even the bench) to Steve Smith. Moose had solid separation to allow the pass not to be defensed either. He was open more than Tyree.

Eli was playing against one of the blitz happiest divisions in all of football, I'm not sure why that's hard to understand. Even more to the point he had to include the next blitz happiest in the AFC North. I doubt many offensive lines could provide the pass protection that the Giants' line did against the Cowboys twice, the Eagles twice, the Steelers, the Ravens, and the Vikings. Only being sacked 27 times when the average sacks of their opponents was 37 is insane.

blitz=/= pressure

Of course teams are going to blitz more when they play 3-4 defense, which Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Dallas, and Cleveland which the Giants all played. However, it doesn't mean he faced less pressure.

Tony Romo 23.8%

Matt Ryan 18.9%

Jeff Garcia 17.8%

Jason Campbell 17.4%

Drew Brees 16.9%

Eli Manning 14.6%

Jay Cutler 14%

Donovan McNabb 13.8%

Jake Delhomme 12.5%

these are the pass attempts under pressure as a percentage of a total. Jake Delhomme faced the LEAST pressure per pass attempt, yet he only exceeded Jason Campbell in passer rating. Jay Cutler, while not going down nearly as much as these other guys, also felt more pressure himself. (Lol Romo, that's like 1 out of 4 pass attempts the defense is in his face)

Way to assume. I read a lot of media on a lot of other teams, I know that the Chicago/Philly/NY media is extremely critical of anything and everything involving their sports teams but give me a break. We both know Delhomme is the kind of guy to put more pressure on himself than anyone else can, even though this isn't a trait I exactly like.

Has Delhomme even been really put to the test in a press conference?

Q. Eli, on that first drive, you had Steve Smith out in the flat there. Was it the wind? Was it the grip?

Q. Are you shocked that the way you pounded teams all year, you weren’t able to get that on fourth and inches?

Q. In hindsight, how did the absence of Plaxico Burress affect this offense?

Q. On a couple different occasions you had Derrick Ward and Brandon Jacobs split out wide. And you did a couple other things, like the direct snap to Ward. What was it in the Eagles past couple of games that you were trying to exploit?

These are actual questions asked of Eli Manning after the playoff loss to the Eagles. The "wind" problem has always been a criticism against Manning, as well as that he can't do it without Plaxico (though, if you do the research you'll find that Manning actually had a better passer's rating without Plaxico). I either read "wind" or "minus Plaxico" in the sports section like every day that season so it's something the press was really, how should I say, pressing about.

Kurt Warner led his team to a SB win after being written off by everyone in the league and was on the cusp of never even seeing an NFL snap in his life. Warren Moon had to spend 5 years in the CFL before anyone would pay attention to him. These sort of debates are pointless, because Delhomme was screwed by one of the worst run teams in the NFL. I can't believe you're trying to use the Saints as an example in this at all... Seriously.

I can't believe you're comparing the racial hurdle Warren Moon had to jump over and Warner's playing in ARENA league like Delhomme's struggle was just as bad as theirs. Why was he held back in New Orleans? Because he couldn't outperform Billy Joe Tolliver?

In a different era Warren Moon would've been a first round draft pick, all the things he did in college.

Last I checked Delhomme never spent a year after college not signed to an NFL team, so he had way more opportunity than you think.

Tell me, do you honestly think it's a good statistical reference to use the year after coming back from TJ surgery to determine the quality of a pitcher? Then how can you honestly use it to determine the quality of a QB. I was more disgusted with ANYONE here after the Arizona game, period. But I came to my senses and took a look back and saw what happened the last time he had a week off (Raiders) and how that shouldn't be used as a reference point every time someone brings Jake up. He had an awful game, but to not give him another year of objective observation after such an injury is daft.

You tell me, because that would actually be favorable for those pitchers, as hard as it is to believe.

In the study, 743 patients who had the Tommy John surgery were contacted for follow-up evaluations and completed a questionnaire about their recovery. The majority of the patients were baseball players (94.5 percent), the remaining 5.5 percent were involved in track, football or other sports. The study found that 622 patients (83 percent) returned to the previous level of competition or higher. Of the major league players, 75.5 percent returned to the same level of play. For minor league players 56 percent returned to the same level or higher. The average time from surgery to full competition was 11.6 months after reconstruction, according to study results. Additionally about 10 percent of the patients had complications, mostly minor.

'Tommy John' Surgery For Elbow Reconstruction Effective, But Number Of Baseball Players Requiring It Alarming

Delhomme's recovery took about 10 months, so he's just about on par with that average recovery rate. Plus, factor in that pitchers throw way more in a season than Delhomme's 414 pass attempts, which was just about the least in the league among starting QBs in average throws per game.

FJ: It wouldn't help if you didn't have it before. All the surgery does is get you back to your normal elbow. You either have the stuff or you don't. A player that reaches the majors, he's spent years in the minors improving, making his mechanics better, with his muscles getting stronger.

Interview with Dr. Frank Jobe

[frash.exe]

Part 2

Also, it's becoming more clear to me that you don't understand the meaning of leadership. It's about getting the people around you to play for you, to give you their best. It's about running the team in whatever capacity your position allows. Having a bad game or good game in no way relates to leadership. It does relate to some other intangibles but you didn't mention those.

No I think you have the problem here. You really think Delhomme is the gold standard of leadership in the league? You haven't admitted any QB you think has better leadership, and based on what anyway? What criteria are you using exactly? I'm going to ask you now, do you even know what you mean when you say "intangibles" or is this just some undefined yet understood term to you and you think that's good enough for you to present it in this argument?

Tell me how it's taken Jake longer to get a grasp of the game than Manning? I'm very curious to see how you can honestly determine this, considering it's impossible to prove one way or another. You're putting out too many unsolvable problems, and doing so on purpose, and it's a rather weak tactic.

It's not rocket science.

You keep harping on the SB for why Eli is any good, but his defense was good enough to help him win the game. If our defense played that well we would have won the SB. Instead it completely collapsed against the Patriots. You like to talk about how some players had a better supporting cast and shouldn't be blamed.

Yes that 12 play, 83-yard touchdown drive was all the defense's work. The Giants took possession with two minutes and change left in the game, and drove down the field and scored the touchdown, leaving 35 seconds, a very manageable figure for the defense, for Tom Brady to come back.

It's obvious to me you have no concept of game situations. If the Patriots start scoring I don't think the Giants still only score 17 points. Adjustments are made to get more yards. Likewise, If the Patriots didn't score 32 points in the superbowl I doubt we still score 29. I think John Fox doesn't open the playbook up and sticks with his running game, like he had done all year long, and still does (keeps the game at least somewhat close no matter how high or low the score is).

In fact the Giants have also had a better defense over the past 6 years than the Panthers have, so let's play that card too.

Well this is totally false. The Giants have had a defensive ranking on average of 16th the past 6 years, compared to the Panthers with an average of 12th. Regardless of how many things you can find wrong with the Panthers that Jake Delhomme has himself fixed because he is The Chosen One, don't drag the Panthers defense into this whole thing because they didn't go 24th and 25th in two years like the Giants did, and the Giants STILL made the playoffs. Never has Delhomme played on the Panthers team whose defense finished worse than 20th.

I'm sure you'll keep changing the rules halfway through but the fact remains Eli had a few moments in the sun surrounded by a lot of nothing.

I'm not changing the rules you are just having trouble playing this game. Also, I wouldn't dismiss a SB trip and a last minute winning drive as just a moment in the sun. You probably didn't also consider the fact that the Giants were on the road throughout the playoffs, or that they beat Green Bay in frigid weather at one of the hardest stadiums to win a playoff game as a road team. Or maybe that Manning has helped lead the Giants to the playoffs 4 years in a row which preaches consistency, or that he has at least 13 career 4th quarter comebacks to his resume, but I'm sure you will find a way to diminish those feats as well as it is your game.

If his defense didn't hold against the Patriots, noone would be talking about him. Just think about that.

all that made me think about is that you don't understand the concept of game situations even more since you think the Giants would've had the exact same drives and the exact same amount of points regardless of how well the Pats did on offense.

[frash.exe]

Wow, why are we breaking down Jake, Eli and others to prove anything about Cutler, he's got an arm, period. It's whether his leadership is there, period. Chicago is happy, period, let it die...

I mean seriously, did you guys just get into a huge pissing contest between Jake and Eli to try to prove a point about Cutler, seriously?...

Well, if you really must know, all this arguing I do here actually helps me become a better writer, which is good when you go to college and have Humanities requirements.

...it's like practice.