Busy day for Bears

[Brandon]

No I haven't, mostly, people talk about Delhomme as the only reason we come away with the victor in a game when they say "He won this game for us". As a matter of fact, I've been saying the opposite this whole time, talking about Denver's lack of success as having more to do with poor defensive play and less to do with Cutler's apparent lack of leadership. People on here basically dumped all of Denver's problems on Cutler, saying he's the cancer, he's to blame this whole time and he's the one who has held the team back.

And it wasn't just riding without a helmet Ben did wrong, he was actually riding on an expired motorcycle permit, and the trauma he sustained at the scene, he could very well have died lying in the street if the paramedics hadn't given him exceptional care.

Give me a good example of that last year because I can clearly remember people only giving DeAngelo or the defense (early in the season) credit. Jake's performance has helped us tremendously as evidenced by our record with and without him. If he's supposedly a bottom of the barrel QB then that wouldn't have been the case. We're not saying he held the Broncos back. sine when? We're saying he would be so much better if he had the intangibles to go along with his physical ability, but instead he's just not as good as many would like to think. In a day and age where we are obsessed with end-of-year stats, we often forget the individual performances where a player may falter. Jay had more games under a 70 passer rating last year than Jake did, think about that for a second.

Yes because an expired motorcycle permit is clearly something unsafe... I'm sorry but you're really grasping for straws on that one. Yeah he could have died but it's a risk you take ANY time you're on a motorcycle. Helmet or not, permit or license or not.

What you said in bold clearly contradicts what you said earlier that QBs rely on their team and a whole bunch of other factors to win so I don't know where you're going there. Fact is QB winning percentage is a shallow stat, it's the same stat that has Rex Grossman as one of the top winning QBs as well. It's not reputably accurate when judging how good a QB is.[

Anyway, Eli Manning is a better QB than Jake Delhomme, and it wasn't just because of the Giants defense and pass rushing arsenal that got them to make a superbowl run. Eli did a great job leading the offense to score points in the postseason and you give him little to no credit for that, which I can expect in this kind of discussion.

The Giants and Panthers are similar teams with relatively comparable levels of skill. That's the only situation where I use something like win percentage. Eli has only had a quarterback rating over 80 ONCE in his entire career. Jake has been over 80 every year he's started in the NFL. I'm sorry but in no way is Eli a better QB than Jake, statistically or otherwise. In a couple years he may progress to be better, but until then it's not the case. Eli has also had the benefit of one of the top lines in the NFL every year he's been in the league, can't say the same for Jake. Yes Eli did well in the playoffs but guess who else has done well in the playoffs *gasp*.

Yes, which is what I've been trying to say, again. The teams in this league that are the best off have in their possession all 4 of the critical phases that make their game. (run game, pass game, defense, STs) all four must be efficient and/or exceptional to reach the highest of heights.

No they don't. The Steelers won without any sort of a rushing game last year. It was painful for me to watch a Steelers fan. Their special teams is also... very meh. The reason the Steelers won is because of the defense, and Ben's ability to come alive when the team needs him.

Yea. It's understandable when he does it. To us it's "emotion" when he spazzes out in the middle of the field after he throws a pick, when it could very well be perceived as humorously childish as well. Maybe if there is any sign of immaturity we've seen in Delhomme is when he has these games where he's figured out by the defense and throws tantrums when he makes a bad play, and loses his confidence as the game wears on because the defense got to his head.

But when other QB's do it, it doesn't apply right?

That the Bears are most likely to be successful this year is because they now have a QB who can lead a team and who is very good in addition to a very good running game and an intimidating defense, as well as RS Devin Hester, which just could put them over the top, and now that Jay Cutler isn't on a team whose organization has basically dropped the ball as far as personnel development and coaching goes, so begins a new chapter in his career that is full of opportunity and playoff advancement. Meanwhile, the Broncos are basically in rebuilding mode at this point.

Jay Cutler is not a cancer, he is not a bad leader, he's not the most perfect teammate but he is a much more capable QB than Kyle Orton, as well as most other QBs in the NFL.

Yes Cutler is an improvement over neckbeard, but that's not the point. I'm saying it wasn't worth what it cost the Bears to get him there. You're giving up 5 players for one, when the Bears are going to need help with their WR's and replacing aging defensive players. They would have been better served rebuilding their scouting staff and going after a QB in next year's draft, which is very deep in that position.

The Broncos were in rebuilding mode anyways, even without trading Cutler away they would have been at best an 8-8 team again this year.

[Epistaxis]

Wow, I go away for a week and return to find this thread still kickin'?

Yikes.

Anyway, I'm willing to give Cutler a pass on the babyish behavior, since I find it so funny that the new HC in Denver is getting such a pass from folks around here. The douchebag behavior he exhibited would have been enough to make me wanna leave.

I probably wouldn't have done it as petulantly as Cutler, but whatever.

I'm gonna wait and see how he leads the bears in both good times and bad before I judge that aspect.

All I DO know is, he is a massive improvement at the most important position on the field, and it won't cost the Bears the ridiculous money 1st round QBs that are TOTALLY untested receive.

Again, you have to give to get in a trade.

[mantal]

Wow, I go away for a week and return to find this thread still kickin'?

Yikes.

Anyway, I'm willing to give Cutler a pass on the babyish behavior, since I find it so funny that the new HC in Denver is getting such a pass from folks around here. The douchebag behavior he exhibited would have been enough to make me wanna leave.

I probably wouldn't have done it as petulantly as Cutler, but whatever.

I'm gonna wait and see how he leads the bears in both good times and bad before I judge that aspect.

All I DO know is, he is a massive improvement at the most important position on the field, and it won't cost the Bears the ridiculous money 1st round QBs that are TOTALLY untested receive.

Again, you have to give to get in a trade.

Both parties handled it badly, no doubt and the head coach should be the one to most know better, but Cutler should as well. Good luck with it...

[Epistaxis]

But Cassel?

Really?

C'mon.

[Brandon]

But Cassel?

Really?

C'mon.

I can see why McDaniels wanted him, considering he coached him since he came into the league and developed him in a system like he will use in Denver. However it was a dumb idea to go about things in the way he had, and even more so because he should have known Cutler wouldn't take the news well. I don't think anyone liked what he did, and I know I certainly didn't. But I really don't like the way Cutler put all the blame on him when he did ask for a trade before McDaniels was even hired.

[frash.exe]

Give me a good example of that last year because I can clearly remember people only giving DeAngelo or the defense (early in the season) credit. Jake's performance has helped us tremendously as evidenced by our record with and without him. If he's supposedly a bottom of the barrel QB then that wouldn't have been the case. We're not saying he held the Broncos back. sine when? We're saying he would be so much better if he had the intangibles to go along with his physical ability, but instead he's just not as good as many would like to think. In a day and age where we are obsessed with end-of-year stats, we often forget the individual performances where a player may falter. Jay had more games under a 70 passer rating last year than Jake did, think about that for a second.

Jake's supporting cast > Jay's supporting cast

plus there's more pressure on Cutler to lead the offense than Delhomme, partly because he threw the ball 200 more times than Jake did. Can Jake even throw the ball 500 times in a season?

Yes because an expired motorcycle permit is clearly something unsafe... I'm sorry but you're really grasping for straws on that one. Yeah he could have died but it's a risk you take ANY time you're on a motorcycle. Helmet or not, permit or license or not.

No I'm not jesus are you that hardheaded not to admit he shouldn't have been riding a motorcycle in the first place if his permit was expired? I'm pretty sure it's illegal.

The Giants and Panthers are similar teams with relatively comparable levels of skill. That's the only situation where I use something like win percentage. Eli has only had a quarterback rating over 80 ONCE in his entire career. Jake has been over 80 every year he's started in the NFL. I'm sorry but in no way is Eli a better QB than Jake, statistically or otherwise. In a couple years he may progress to be better, but until then it's not the case. Eli has also had the benefit of one of the top lines in the NFL every year he's been in the league, can't say the same for Jake. Yes Eli did well in the playoffs but guess who else has done well in the playoffs *gasp*.

Yes because QB rating is the only measurement when judging QB play. I can't help but to think if we're comparing Jake to Brady people would be throwing in all the other factors that contribute to how well a QB plays as well. And just because the running game isn't effective doesn't mean pass protection is awful. For 5 out of his 6 seasons he's been sacked less than 30 times. Manning gets sacked a bit more than Jake does. Manning has already passed Jake's level.

Jake did well in the playoffs 4 years ago. Brett did well in the playoffs years ago himself, doesn't mean he's still one of the best QBs in the league as well. Jake has been awful in the playoffs his last few games. Once upon a time he was money in the playoffs, but that time has pretty much passed.

Yes Cutler is an improvement over neckbeard, but that's not the point. I'm saying it wasn't worth what it cost the Bears to get him there. You're giving up 5 players for one, when the Bears are going to need help with their WR's and replacing aging defensive players. They would have been better served rebuilding their scouting staff and going after a QB in next year's draft, which is very deep in that position.

Yea but you make it like the only way you can improve defense is with first round picks. I've already researched and found out that better defenses than Carolina has start out with players generally drafted lower in rounds, or in the case of free agents, lower-tiered. Also, the Bears also have a great pass-catching TE, which can even be more beneficial since he's a bigger target. And most of their defensive starters are still in their 20s.

But when other QB's do it, it doesn't apply right?

well where the hell did I say that?

The Broncos were in rebuilding mode anyways, even without trading Cutler away they would have been at best an 8-8 team again this year.

Of course, because they didn't have a whole lot besides Cutler to begin with, which was the point I was making. Without Cutler that team that went 8-8 last year is probably at best 4-12.

[frash.exe]

Raging Bull, are you Jay Cutler's cousin.

yes I am he's my 4th cousin twice removed

I don't think that anyone here isn't giving Jay props for his exceptional physical gifts. FB, Brandon, and myself just don't like the kind of player that he is.

That's not an area of his game I've been defending

You do, and so do Bears fans.....now, but there are a few of us out there that just don't appreciate the way he goes about being a leader and a teammate. If he matures, and starts playing well down the stretches in seasons, I will certainly change my opinion of him. But as of yet he does nothing for me, other than throw a pretty deep out.

his physical gifts that make him efficient throwing the ball isn't the only thing good about his game.

[Brandon]

Jake's supporting cast > Jay's supporting cast

plus there's more pressure on Cutler to lead the offense than Delhomme, partly because he threw the ball 200 more times than Jake did. Can Jake even throw the ball 500 times in a season?

Jake's offensive line has been marginal aside from 2003 and 2009, Cutler has had a great one every year he's been in the league. Good offensive lines make QB's look much much better.

Also if you don't know the answer to the question you probably shouldn't be arguing against him...

No I'm not jesus are you that hardheaded not to admit he shouldn't have been riding a motorcycle in the first place if his permit was expired? I'm pretty sure it's illegal.

The point is you're focusing on one situation to try and give an example of why he has off the field issues or something of the sort, but it was an isolate incident and he has learned from it.

Yes because QB rating is the only measurement when judging QB play. I can't help but to think if we're comparing Jake to Brady people would be throwing in all the other factors that contribute to how well a QB plays as well. And just because the running game isn't effective doesn't mean pass protection is awful. For 5 out of his 6 seasons he's been sacked less than 30 times. Manning gets sacked a bit more than Jake does. Manning has already passed Jake's level.

Jake did well in the playoffs 4 years ago. Brett did well in the playoffs years ago himself, doesn't mean he's still one of the best QBs in the league as well. Jake has been awful in the playoffs his last few games. Once upon a time he was money in the playoffs, but that time has pretty much passed.

Quarterback rating is the beast measure of a QB's statistical performance. It's a well put together formula to evaluate each and every aspect of what is important when throwing the ball. Even on top of that name for me why Manning is better. I really can't wait to hear this.

Eli averages 5.36 sacks per 100 drop backs

Jake averages 5.63 sacks per 100 drop backs

So yeah Eli really gets sacked "a bit more more than Jake does". Jake has had one playoff game since the ones you mentioned 4 years ago so how did that become plural?

Yea but you make it like the only way you can improve defense is with first round picks. I've already researched and found out that better defenses than Carolina has start out with players generally drafted lower in rounds, or in the case of free agents, lower-tiered. Also, the Bears also have a great pass-catching TE, which can even be more beneficial since he's a bigger target. And most of their defensive starters are still in their 20s.

No but giving up 4 potential picks, which include 2 firsts and a third, is not a good start. If you're gonna bring up that you did research put it out in the open, don't say you did it without any proof. As for the defense, the average age of their starters is over 28, that's old. Add to that a bad history of injuries among those players.

Olsen is a good TE but he alone can't do it all.

J

Of course, because they didn't have a whole lot besides Cutler to begin with, which was the point I was making. Without Cutler that team that went 8-8 last year is probably at best 4-12.

My money is on 6-10. Sorry but they play against too many bad teams to have that bad of a record. I know everyone wants to imagine they'll just utterly collapse without Cutler but considering how much potential their running game has they don't need to rely purely on passing to win games... Plus running the ball will only help out their defense. A marvel concept I'm sure.

[frash.exe]

Jake's offensive line has been marginal aside from 2003 and 2009, Cutler has had a great one every year he's been in the league. Good offensive lines make QB's look much much better.

It is true, he has been given exceptional protection, still that is not the only way you can defend the pass. Since Denver's system was pass heavy, you could expect that there had been more defenders in coverage on passing downs. Delhomme finds a lot of open receivers off of play action because we use the RUN to set up the PASS, while in Denver it's been the opposite (especially in the west coast offense which Shanahan had run there).

Also if you don't know the answer to the question you probably shouldn't be arguing against him...

What question, the one where you ask me to prove that people gave all the credit to Delhomme for some of the wins? If you didn't see those, you must really be new here.

The point is you're focusing on one situation to try and give an example of why he has off the field issues or something of the sort, but it was an isolate incident and he has learned from it.

the point is is he's not perfect, he makes a mistake outside of the game, but that doesn't stop him from being a damn good quarterback. It's not as much about saying the right things to the press as much as people blow it up to be.

Quarterback rating is the beast measure of a QB's statistical performance. It's a well put together formula to evaluate each and every aspect of what is important when throwing the ball. Even on top of that name for me why Manning is better. I really can't wait to hear this.

Again it's not a cover-all stat to be able to conclusively say one QB is better than another. I'm still waiting for Delhomme to elude 3 pass rushers in the pocket and make a throw to an open receiver for a critical first down. Even in his near heroic SB 38 effort he turned the ball over, which led to the first NE score, yet that was a fumble, which doesn't factor in your "beast measure" NFL QB rating, now does it?

Eli averages 5.36 sacks per 100 drop backs

Jake averages 5.63 sacks per 100 drop backs

So yeah Eli really gets sacked "a bit more more than Jake does". Jake has had one playoff game since the ones you mentioned 4 years ago so how did that become plural?

That's a cumulative stat. 2004 and 2005 Jake was sacked per 15 or 16 times but Manning also had that same rate in 2004. In 2008 Jake's sacks per pass attempt were less, and anyway whatever difference there is is negligible. You really think less than 3/10s of a sack puts the Giants' pass pro in a whole other league? In 2008 Manning still had a better QB rating, meanwhile he played 9 games against top 10 defenses, while Delhomme only played 4.

When considering quality of defense, Manning played defense on average of a ranking of 11.5, while Delhomme played defense on average of a ranking of 20.5. ...and he played better, which lends evidence to the fact that he is a better QB than Jake Delhomme.

If you're gonna bring up that you did research put it out in the open, don't say you did it without any proof.

A comprehensive comparison of 2008 ranked defenses.

Panthers (Mike Trgovac):

Breakdown of starters:

1st rounders: Thomas Davis, Jon Beason, Chris Gamble, Julius Peppers

FAs/trades: Tyler Brayton, Damione Lewis, Maake Kemoeatu, Chris Harris, Na'il Diggs, Ken Lucas

3rd rounders: Charles Godfrey

Other Contributors: Charles Johnson (3rd), Richard Marshall (2nd),

Review: Only a single player started most of the season, who didn't cost us a first round draft pick or wasn't an acquisition. Tyler Brayton, an underrated run-stopping DE had been originally a first round draft pick, as well as Damione Lewis. Maake Kemoeatu was originally a UDFA pick up who played NT in Baltimore's 3-4. Baltimore developed him, and we now benefit from the product. Same case with Ken Lucas, who flourished in Seattle, and who we picked up. Chris Harris found some success with the Bears before he came here. Ditto for Na'il Diggs.

New York Giants (Steve Spagnuolo):

First rounders: Mathias Kiwanuka, Aaron Ross

Round 2: Fred Robbins, Corey Webster

Round 3: Justin Tuck

Round 4: Bryan Kehl

Round 6: Barry Cofield

Round 7: Michael Johnson

FA: Danny Clark, Antonio Pierce

Undrafted: James Butler

Other Contributors: Kenny Phillips (1st), Chase Blackburn (UD), Kevin Dockery (UD), Terrell Thomas (2nd)

Review: Much more diverse. Only two free agents contributed as starters for most of the season. Many no-name guys contributed and you wouldn't think they can be productive, but as a unit they seem to flourish.

Pittsburgh Steelers (Dick LeBeau):

First Rounders: Casey Hampton, Troy Polamalu

Round 2: Lamar Woodley

Round 4: Larry Foote, Aaron Smith, Ike Taylor, Deshea Townsend

Round 7: Brett Keisel

FA: James Farrior, Ryan Clark

Undrafted: James Harrison (Defensive MVP)

Other Contributors: William Gay (5th), Anthony Madison (UD), Lawrence Timmons (1st), Travis Kirschke (FA)

Review: Only 2 first round starters as well. James Farrior had first round origin as a Jet. Ryan Clark, safety went undrafted and found some success with the Redskins (I guess it was like a Chris Harris caliber acquisition). Not bad ranking 1st in total defense in the regular season for a team. Not bad for a team who's passed up defense to select QBs, TEs, WRs, and OGs in the first round.

Philadelphia Eagles (Jim Johnson):

1st round: Broderick Bunkley, Mike Patterson

2nd round: Sheldon Brown, Brian Dawkins

3rd round: Chris Gocong, Stewart Bradley

5th round: Trent Cole

Undrafted: Akeem Jordan, Quintin Mikell

FA: Juqua Parker, Asante Samuel

Other Contributors: Omar Gaither (5th), Darren Howard (FA), Joselio Hanson (FA)

Review: Juqua Parker was a very low tier FA acquisition, Joselio Hanson actually played in NFLE after a year with the niners in which he didn't see much playing time before Philly picked him up. Another team which only had a sum of 4 talented acquisitions to start with when they picked them up and the rest has been player development.

Baltimore Ravens (Rex Ryan):

1st round: Haloti Ngata, Terrell Suggs, Ed Reed, Ray Lewis

4th round: Jarret Johnson

FA: Justin Bannan, Trevor Pryce, Samari Rolle, Fabian Washington, Jim Leonhard

Undrafted: Bart Scott

Other Contributors: Corey Ivy (FA), Frank Walker (FA), Jameel McClain (UD)

Review: Justin Bannan, Jim Leonhard, Corey Ivy, and Frank Walker were all lower tier free agents. Both Terrell Suggs and Ray Lewis are long tenured first round draft picks. The Ravens have spent most of their first round picks on offense since 2003, yet they've been able to field top ten defense every single year since then.

Tennessee Titans (Jim Schwartz):

1st Round: Albert Haynesworth, Jevon Kearse, Keith Bullock, Michael Griffin

2nd Round: Kyle Vandenbosch

4th Round: Stephen Tulloch

7th Round: Cortland Finnegan

FA: Tony Brown, David Thornton, Nick Harper, Chris Hope

Other Contributors: Vincent Fuller (4th), Ryan Fowler (FA), Dave Ball (FA), Jacob Ford (6th)

Review: The Panthers both had their hands on Dave Ball and Tony Brown before Tennessee integrated them in their system, and couldn't develop them. Nick Harper and David Thornton have origins in the Colts where they thrived as starters, they weren't even first round picks. David Thornton went 4th round and Harper was undrafted. Jevon Kearse was originally a Titan before he went to Philly. Keith Bullock has been a starter for 9 seasons since he was a rookie.

Indianapolis Colts (Ron Meeks):

1st Round: Dwight Freeney

2nd Round: Bob Sanders, Tim Jennings, Kelvin Hayden

3rd Round: Freddy Keiaho

4th Round: Clint Session

5th Round: Robert Mathis

6th Round: Antoine Bethea

7th Round: Keyunta Dawson

Undrafted: Gary Brackett, Eric Foster

Other Contributors: Melvin Bullitt (UD), Raheem Brock (FA), Tim Jennings (2nd)

Review: One of the purest drafting and development defenses I've seen today. No starter had originated from another team last season, yet the Colts ranked 7th in scoring defense last season. Raheem Brock was drafted by the Eagles however he was only a PS member, he made his regular season debut as a Colt. Ron Meeks is now our defensive coordinator, I have an intuition we won't need to be creaming over every single first round MUST HAVE defensive player, because he is one of the best at doing more with less.

[Fireball77]

I'm still waiting for Delhomme to elude 3 pass rushers in the pocket and make a throw to an open receiver for a critical first down.

Does the SD game where Merriman had him in the grasp and was pulling him down and he still managed to complete the pass (I think it was to Hackett) count? That's the first one I thought of, and I know there are more.

I don't think this point is a valid criticism of Jake's abilities.

[frash.exe]

Does the SD game where Merriman had him in the grasp and was pulling him down and he still managed to complete the pass (I think it was to Hackett) count? That's the first one I thought of, and I know there are more.

I don't think this point is a valid criticism of Jake's abilities.

So Shawn Merriman + a torn ACL=3 people?

[Fireball77]

I thought your point was a broader one about eluding guys and completing a pass. Didn't realize you meant it literally. Oh well.

[Brandon]

It is true, he has been given exceptional protection, still that is not the only way you can defend the pass. Since Denver's system was pass heavy, you could expect that there had been more defenders in coverage on passing downs. Delhomme finds a lot of open receivers off of play action because we use the RUN to set up the PASS, while in Denver it's been the opposite (especially in the west coast offense which Shanahan had run there).

Teams don't defend the pass by simply putting more defenders back into coverage. There is this thing called blitzing, not sure if you've heard of it. Regardless Denver has had a consistently good running game, so I don't know where you're getting this from. Shanahan ran a much more vertical passing scheme last year than what I would consider WCO.

What question, the one where you ask me to prove that people gave all the credit to Delhomme for some of the wins? If you didn't see those, you must really be new here.

You asked if Delhomme can even throw for 500 passes. You obviously didn't check before you asked the question. And before you start thinking, "oh well that must have been a bad year for him", no it wasn't.

the point is is he's not perfect, he makes a mistake outside of the game, but that doesn't stop him from being a damn good quarterback. It's not as much about saying the right things to the press as much as people blow it up to be.

So where in Ben's motorcycle accident, or ever, has Ben said the wrong things to the press?

Again it's not a cover-all stat to be able to conclusively say one QB is better than another. I'm still waiting for Delhomme to elude 3 pass rushers in the pocket and make a throw to an open receiver for a critical first down. Even in his near heroic SB 38 effort he turned the ball over, which led to the first NE score, yet that was a fumble, which doesn't factor in your "beast measure" NFL QB rating, now does it?

You sir are deluded if you think quarterbacks should be expected to make such plays in any regularity. Regardless you must forget the play Jake made in the very SB you mention, where he cleared out of a collapsing pocket evading two Patriot pass rushers and hitting Moose dead on while still on the move, and that play went for a touchdown. Or half the throws he made in the NFC Champ game before that. And those are just a couple examples.

QB rating is the best stat out there for QB's. I still have yet to see you prove how Eli is better than Jake. Not even as a passer is he better, let alone as a leader.

That's a cumulative stat. 2004 and 2005 Jake was sacked per 15 or 16 times but Manning also had that same rate in 2004. In 2008 Jake's sacks per pass attempt were less, and anyway whatever difference there is is negligible. You really think less than 3/10s of a sack puts the Giants' pass pro in a whole other league? In 2008 Manning still had a better QB rating, meanwhile he played 9 games against top 10 defenses, while Delhomme only played 4.

When considering quality of defense, Manning played defense on average of a ranking of 11.5, while Delhomme played defense on average of a ranking of 20.5. ...and he played better, which lends evidence to the fact that he is a better QB than Jake Delhomme.

First, you were still wrong about the sack totals, no matter how you slice it. Don't try and marginalize it since you said Eli does better while being sacked more than Jake does, which was untrue. In a 500 attempt game it's still about 2 sacks worth of a difference. But as you said Eli was going up against more top defenses so that means his offensive line was doing that much better of a job. *gasp* See how that works?

See here is where your logic fails, you compare one year of Eli vs Jake where Eli had a decent year, his only good year, and one where Jake was coming off a surgery that would end most quarterbacks' careers or at least set them back longer. Hence why you can't just use 1 year samples, because statistically speaking there isn't a good basis for comparision. The more data points you have the more you can rule out anomalies and such.

As for your list of teams and their draft pics, notice how almost all of the good players on each team are taken in the 1-3rd rounds as I was saying, and how the only team on there that has great talent across the board is the best run team in NFL history? The Steelers are in a different league when it comes to personnel scouting and development, but once you get past them not many teams find talent past the third round. You can find talent late in the draft but it's luck, nothing more, nothing less.

[dimbee]

Raging Bull vs Brandon

ding ding ding!