Rivera says there could be changes to the OLine

[Mage]

In continuation of above post, it is another reason why nobody here should take PFF's ratings like that, especially in regards to offensive line, at face value. They really fail sometimes to take into account stuff like how evasive a quarterback is and whatnot. Vick being that elusive, that quick, should not change the fact that his offensive line is playing poorly.

I think a more interesting statistic (although it would be difficult to track and obviously take awhile) would be how much time a quarterback actually has to throw WITHIN in the pocket. As in, how long is he in the pocket before he is out of the tackle box? It'd still have its flaws (Newton has shaken off tackles within the pocket before) but more accurate. Or maybe, how much time does a quarterback have in the pocket before either, A) he is out of the tackle box or makes a clear evasive/elusive move to escape pressure and B) how long until he's contacted.

One last thing. You cannot compare Cam to guys like Brady. Because they play in entirely different systems designed to do different things. Newton plays in an Air Coryell offense, it wants to strike deep and often. Chud has taken this to another level and there are many times there isn't an underneath option for Cam. But besides that, it is also something that ruined what Mike Martz ran. It required a good offensive line. Brady on the otherhand is a quick 3 step drop and throw kind of offense. Get Welker, Gronk, and Hernandez involved underneath. It is why Moss soon became ineffective in that offense and why Lloyd isn't putting up the kind of numbers he was with Denver or, for awhile, with St. Louis. He's just there to prevent defenses from creeping up and focusing on the underneath (that is what screwed them in 2010 and 2011; I remember in the playoffs in '10, Jets just played up close all game long and New England didn't have anyone who could take the top off).

[Gabeking]

Honestly, of all people on this site, I at least expected you could see just how misleading that statistic is and it does not tell the entire story. The guy who said that information failed to post the link. I'll do just that.

https://www.profootb...-time-to-throw/

Now lets look at, say, the top five QBs with the most time in the pocket and the top five QBs with the fewest time in the pocket.

1. Russell Wilson

2. Michael Vick (just this name tells you all you need to know about the statistic considering how poor Philadelphia's offensive line is)

3. Cam Newton

4. Robert Griffin III

5. Alex Smith (very underrated mobility; albeit he also plays in a very quick hitch offense and is rarely asked to go through progressions)

1. Tom Brady

2. Matt Hasselbeck

3. Peyton Manning

4. Ryan Tannehill

5. Ryan Fitzpatrick

With the exception of Tannehill (which is fairly shocking), what do those quarterbacks have in common on the bottom? Immobile. And what do the QBs in the top five all have in common? Mobility. They are evasive at avoiding the pressure. Aaron Rodgers is 11th on that list. Do you believe GB's offensive line is that good first of all? Second, do you believe that Hasselbeck, Rivers, Flacco, etc. are somehow better at making their decisions quicker than the best quarterback in the game? Look at Vick. His offensive line is poo. But he's evasive thus why, according to statistics, he has "more time to throw than other QBs." Same with Newton. RG3 plays in a one read and throw offense yet look at much time he has the ball. It's because he's avoiding defenders. And if you've seen Seattle at any point this year (which, since we played them, I'd assume you have), you'd see the times Wilson constantly just runs backwards and around in the backfield avoiding defenders.

The statistic is misleading and tells us nothing. It does not explain to you how good an offensive line is because there are way too many variables and you are a very intelligent poster so I'm sure you can see how misleading this is as well. Because Fitzpatrick is actually a very poor decision maker who holds on the ball an excessive amount.

Here is another misleading statistic to finish this off.

https://www.profootb...ime-to-throw/2/

Look at the second chart. Andrew Luck is 3rd in "longest time to throw the football." Are you telling me Luck, of all quarterbacks (rookie or not, he is extremely intelligent and understands the pro game beyond his years), does not understand how to go through his progressions quickly? This is why the chart is misleading. Luck is a very mobile quarterback capable of standing tall in the pocket and evading defenders. Because of that, if his offensive line is playing poorly yet he's shaking off defenders, then of course he's going to hold the ball longer than say, Brady. Because Brady is not going to fend off those defenders. He's going to get sacked at first contact. See, whenever he plays New York.

By the way, I do agree with you. The offensive line isn't the only thing wrong this season regarding Cam (although that and the running game have definitely played a huge part). Cam can certainly do a better job getting the ball out quickly. But don't use this stat to support the offensive line actually doing remotely well. They have been horrific all this season sans the New Orleans game. Newton is just really good at buying himself time as seen countless times throughout the year. Same with RGIII, Luck, Wilson, etc.

Exactly but also what worries me the most is how his mechanics have regressed after he left IMG the first season, says a lot about the coaching we have now...

[Gabeking]

Honestly, of all people on this site, I at least expected you could see just how misleading that statistic is and it does not tell the entire story. The guy who said that information failed to post the link. I'll do just that.

https://www.profootb...-time-to-throw/

Now lets look at, say, the top five QBs with the most time in the pocket and the top five QBs with the fewest time in the pocket.

1. Russell Wilson

2. Michael Vick (just this name tells you all you need to know about the statistic considering how poor Philadelphia's offensive line is)

3. Cam Newton

4. Robert Griffin III

5. Alex Smith (very underrated mobility; albeit he also plays in a very quick hitch offense and is rarely asked to go through progressions)

1. Tom Brady

2. Matt Hasselbeck

3. Peyton Manning

4. Ryan Tannehill

5. Ryan Fitzpatrick

With the exception of Tannehill (which is fairly shocking), what do those quarterbacks have in common on the bottom? Immobile. And what do the QBs in the top five all have in common? Mobility. They are evasive at avoiding the pressure. Aaron Rodgers is 11th on that list. Do you believe GB's offensive line is that good first of all? Second, do you believe that Hasselbeck, Rivers, Flacco, etc. are somehow better at making their decisions quicker than the best quarterback in the game? Look at Vick. His offensive line is poo. But he's evasive thus why, according to statistics, he has "more time to throw than other QBs." Same with Newton. RG3 plays in a one read and throw offense yet look at much time he has the ball. It's because he's avoiding defenders. And if you've seen Seattle at any point this year (which, since we played them, I'd assume you have), you'd see the times Wilson constantly just runs backwards and around in the backfield avoiding defenders.

The statistic is misleading and tells us nothing. It does not explain to you how good an offensive line is because there are way too many variables and you are a very intelligent poster so I'm sure you can see how misleading this is as well. Because Fitzpatrick is actually a very poor decision maker who holds on the ball an excessive amount.

Here is another misleading statistic to finish this off.

https://www.profootb...ime-to-throw/2/

Look at the second chart. Andrew Luck is 3rd in "longest time to throw the football." Are you telling me Luck, of all quarterbacks (rookie or not, he is extremely intelligent and understands the pro game beyond his years), does not understand how to go through his progressions quickly? This is why the chart is misleading. Luck is a very mobile quarterback capable of standing tall in the pocket and evading defenders. Because of that, if his offensive line is playing poorly yet he's shaking off defenders, then of course he's going to hold the ball longer than say, Brady. Because Brady is not going to fend off those defenders. He's going to get sacked at first contact. See, whenever he plays New York.

By the way, I do agree with you. The offensive line isn't the only thing wrong this season regarding Cam (although that and the running game have definitely played a huge part). Cam can certainly do a better job getting the ball out quickly. But don't use this stat to support the offensive line actually doing remotely well. They have been horrific all this season sans the New Orleans game. Newton is just really good at buying himself time as seen countless times throughout the year. Same with RGIII, Luck, Wilson, etc.

Exactly but also what worries me the most is how his mechanics have regressed after he left IMG the first season, says a lot about the coaching we have now...

[Gabeking]

Honestly, of all people on this site, I at least expected you could see just how misleading that statistic is and it does not tell the entire story. The guy who said that information failed to post the link. I'll do just that.

https://www.profootb...-time-to-throw/

Now lets look at, say, the top five QBs with the most time in the pocket and the top five QBs with the fewest time in the pocket.

1. Russell Wilson

2. Michael Vick (just this name tells you all you need to know about the statistic considering how poor Philadelphia's offensive line is)

3. Cam Newton

4. Robert Griffin III

5. Alex Smith (very underrated mobility; albeit he also plays in a very quick hitch offense and is rarely asked to go through progressions)

1. Tom Brady

2. Matt Hasselbeck

3. Peyton Manning

4. Ryan Tannehill

5. Ryan Fitzpatrick

With the exception of Tannehill (which is fairly shocking), what do those quarterbacks have in common on the bottom? Immobile. And what do the QBs in the top five all have in common? Mobility. They are evasive at avoiding the pressure. Aaron Rodgers is 11th on that list. Do you believe GB's offensive line is that good first of all? Second, do you believe that Hasselbeck, Rivers, Flacco, etc. are somehow better at making their decisions quicker than the best quarterback in the game? Look at Vick. His offensive line is poo. But he's evasive thus why, according to statistics, he has "more time to throw than other QBs." Same with Newton. RG3 plays in a one read and throw offense yet look at much time he has the ball. It's because he's avoiding defenders. And if you've seen Seattle at any point this year (which, since we played them, I'd assume you have), you'd see the times Wilson constantly just runs backwards and around in the backfield avoiding defenders.

The statistic is misleading and tells us nothing. It does not explain to you how good an offensive line is because there are way too many variables and you are a very intelligent poster so I'm sure you can see how misleading this is as well. Because Fitzpatrick is actually a very poor decision maker who holds on the ball an excessive amount.

Here is another misleading statistic to finish this off.

https://www.profootb...ime-to-throw/2/

Look at the second chart. Andrew Luck is 3rd in "longest time to throw the football." Are you telling me Luck, of all quarterbacks (rookie or not, he is extremely intelligent and understands the pro game beyond his years), does not understand how to go through his progressions quickly? This is why the chart is misleading. Luck is a very mobile quarterback capable of standing tall in the pocket and evading defenders. Because of that, if his offensive line is playing poorly yet he's shaking off defenders, then of course he's going to hold the ball longer than say, Brady. Because Brady is not going to fend off those defenders. He's going to get sacked at first contact. See, whenever he plays New York.

By the way, I do agree with you. The offensive line isn't the only thing wrong this season regarding Cam (although that and the running game have definitely played a huge part). Cam can certainly do a better job getting the ball out quickly. But don't use this stat to support the offensive line actually doing remotely well. They have been horrific all this season sans the New Orleans game. Newton is just really good at buying himself time as seen countless times throughout the year. Same with RGIII, Luck, Wilson, etc.

Exactly but also what worries me the most is how his mechanics have regressed after he left IMG the first season, says a lot about the coaching we have now...

[doghead28]

at this point Rivera is grasping at straws. All the problems are not the O line. Cam needs to get rid of ball on 3 step drops. He holds on to it too long in these situations. That being said the O line play has been horrible but movin Gross from LT is not an option this year. If we have top 5 pick and a great prospect is sitting there at LT, they should consider drafting him.

[Snake]

I am still laughing at the people who think the OL is what is causing Can's poor play.

Another thread had the stats that showed Cam was in the Top 10 for the QB with the most time in the pocket to pass.

He is so slow on his progressions that 3 step drops are turning into holding the ball for 5 sec.

Guy just is not able to read defenses and go through his progressions quickly. I think he can develop this, but it is a huge weakness of his.

Like always you come in, miss quote something to bash Newton, and are completely wrong. Way to keep that looser streak going. The stats you were talking about FYI showed Newton has a second less then the Cardinals line gave there QB. Oh and they suck donkey balls.

[CatMan72]

If nothing else, our o-line is having a very difficult time getting any kind of push... which is hurting our run game... which is hurting our young QB, etc...

Hopefully Jeremy Bridges can get some push @ the RG spot.

[csx]

Honestly, of all people on this site, I at least expected you could see just how misleading that statistic is and it does not tell the entire story. The guy who said that information failed to post the link. I'll do just that.

https://www.profootb...-time-to-throw/

Now lets look at, say, the top five QBs with the most time in the pocket and the top five QBs with the fewest time in the pocket.

1. Russell Wilson

2. Michael Vick (just this name tells you all you need to know about the statistic considering how poor Philadelphia's offensive line is)

3. Cam Newton

4. Robert Griffin III

5. Alex Smith (very underrated mobility; he also plays in a very quick hitch offense and is rarely asked to go through progressions so this tells you something as well)

1. Tom Brady

2. Matt Hasselbeck

3. Peyton Manning

4. Ryan Tannehill

5. Ryan Fitzpatrick

With the exception of Tannehill (which is fairly shocking), what do those quarterbacks have in common on the bottom? Immobile. And what do the QBs in the top five all have in common? Mobility. They are evasive at avoiding the pressure. Aaron Rodgers is 11th on that list. Do you believe GB's offensive line is that good first of all? Second, do you believe that Hasselbeck, Rivers, Flacco, etc. are somehow better at making their decisions quicker than the best quarterback in the game? Look at Vick. His offensive line is poo. But he's evasive thus why, according to statistics, he has "more time to throw than other QBs." Same with Newton. RG3 plays in a one read and throw offense yet look at much time he has the ball. It's because he's avoiding defenders. And if you've seen Seattle at any point this year (which, since we played them, I'd assume you have), you'd see the times Wilson constantly just runs backwards and around in the backfield avoiding defenders.

I first looked at that list and the conclusion I came to was that the guys in the second list (minus the same anomaly, Tannehill) are very experienced, get the ball out quick, and don't eat up clock time.

In relation to Newton I gathered that he naturally eats up time in the pocket waiting for the longer routes to develop. and players to get open. He usually waits to see a player get open and then he reacts quickly to rifle it to them. He has not developed the ability to anticipate where to pass before the receiver gets open.

There are a lot of things you can conclude from those lists. Some things contradict each other but I would thing there are different reasons for different QBs being on those lists.