Bubble doesn't help black QBs

[PantherTrain84]

Here is what makes me uneasy.. Jay Cutler pushes teammates, flips the bird and is known for having a terrible attitude and oh BTW he has a slightly lower QB rating than Cam and yet "experts" just laugh him off and forget about it. Matthew Stafford, also a 1st overall pick is playing terrible after coming off a great season, and you dont hear a single peep about him. Speaking as a white male, i do sense some racial undertones here.

Before you jump pn me saying im playing the race card, first think about something.. If Cam Newton was caught pushing his teammates, flipping the bird to a cameraman, yelling "get the F off my field". What do you think the uproar would be? Cam is getting bashed to hell for calling a reporter sweetheart? Lol come on guys, stop being naive and call a spade a spade here. BTW, IM WHITE and I even see it.

[PantherTrain84]

What we should all be asking, is how come Sam Bradford isn't being criticized for being a bust?

I mean he was the #1 overall pick before Cam and unlike Cam he received a MAJOR paycheck for it. When I said MAJOR, I meant the largest contract for a rookie ever! Over 50 million in guarantees. More money should equal HIGHER expectations. Yet this guy has done absolutely nothing to warrant no nationwide media criticism. Yes he was injured for a season. But I'm speaking about this year, the same as Cam. His numbers are identical to Cam's, yet he's 1 year older and paid a king's ransom salary.

How about Alex Smith? The guy was going 6 years strong with only ONE 300 yard passing game, 6 years! And yet no media frenzy surrounding him. Not to mention he did criticize his HEAD COACH, Mike Nolan, publicly.

Anyways the reason IMO for the clear disproportionate criticism for Cam is hate not race. I haven't forgotten all the hate for Cam from the Media, before last September. After that record breaking season, a lot of those pricks went into hiding and have been waiting for a chance to blend into the feeding frenzy, unopposed.

I agree 100%. I call it the sub conscious "black tax". I really dont want to get political here but take Obama for example. When we killed Bin Laden, Obama only got a 5 point bump in the polls.. Wanna know what Bush got when we caught Saddam Hussein? A 25 point bump in the polls, yes you heard that right. 25 point bounce!

The black tax is basicially no matter what good a black leader does, it is NEVER quite good enough. Its why Bradford playing terrible goes under the radar, its why Aaron Rodgers can push a cameraman after the Seahawks game and noone says a peep, its why Jay Cutler flips off a cameraman and ESPN laughs it off, its why Matt Ryan gets caught yelling "Get the F off my field" and not a word is said...

Cam calls a reporter sweetheart and all of a sudden the pitchforks come out, and he is suddenly Vince Young 2.0 Im sorry but if you dont see racial undertones, you are in denial.

[carpantherfan84]

I wasn't sure I wanted to post again, but since you replied to me nicely, sure Carpanther84, that can be a discussion to be had. But before we can even have such a discussion you need to be able to state the facts and the truth and a lot of your post is filled with incorrect information. So can I, as an educated white woman, also give you my take and restate some facts?

-Cam Newton has in fact cursed out his teammate Greg Olsen, and it was well documented just a few games in as a rookie.

-He has called out his teammates for being "losers", and wanting to change the "losing mentality". A mature leader would realize it requires the entire team to do this, and you don't usually get that change by calling them out like that, separating himself from his "loser teammates", especially as a rookie.

-His own teammates have called him out because of his behavior. Obviously it's not just the "racist" media that has an issue with his sulking, but so does Steve Smith. And last time I checked he is black and his main weapon offensively. The reason Smith called him out is once again because he was separating himself, when we are down late in the game, from the rest of his team. This is the time they actually need him most to be strong and stand by them until the end. Do you not think it's possible his late game sulking and our inability to close games are related?

Most of the extra attention he is getting from the media, is because he brings it to himself by offering them so much extra and unnecessary dialogue that simply shouldn't be said, especially when you are losing.

The reporter only asked him what it would take to put this "dominance", which he himself alluded to wanting to display, on the field. In what shape or form is that insulting, and deserves a condescending remark?

To give you insight of why it is condescending, it's because no grown woman like myself and that reporter wants to be called "sweetheart" by a 23 year old boy in a professional setting. And I would personally hope to see the "domination" he desires on display on the field, not through poor choice of words towards female reporters in the press conference room. That seems more like a boy with poor self control, not a dominant leader of men. But even a 23 year old, especially one who went to college, should be able to understand why that would be insulting to a woman. Football isn't just for men. We women watch it too and like to keep up with the team and some of us report on it as well. But you don't have to take it from a white woman. Have a look at other women's take such as Jemele Hill, an african american reporter, from ESPN. We both share similar feelings on this topic. http://espn.go.com/n...m-newton"newton

As far as comparisons, if you are referring to reporters like Stephen A Smith comparing Cam to Vince Young, I agree, he can be considered having a racial bias, has made little effort to hide it, and he has made a career of going far beyond his journalistic duty to remain objective in his support of athletes. But you have it backwards. He is black and he supports black athletes so your argument makes little sense because it's not just the white media that's criticizing him on the SAME points.

Now I have given you some facts as well as not 1, not 2, but 3 examples of very popular African American media personalities and African American players that all share the same sentiments and similar criticisms. And I would argue they are a little bit more up to date on current culture than Warren Moon.

-When the first criticisms came out, you might be able to pull up the race card, and use it once or twice.

-When well known black media personalities join in, especially those known to have strong support for black athletes also echo the same criticism, it's probably time to at least put down that card. Unless you believe they are all just a bunch of Uncle Toms and Aunt Tammies.

-Finally, when black and white women, also join in and write pieces that we both feel offended by the comments, maybe, just maybe, there might be a lot of truth to what is being said, and we are not all just a bunch of uneducated racist hicks?

Now I will not comment on your personal beliefs on the effects of slavery, because neither you nor I can be sure just how much of an effect it has on Cam Newton's personal life. I will say though that he was born in 1989, not 1939, and it looks to me like he has had the same opportunities as a white boy or any other race in America. He was, after all, the #1 draft pick, to a southern state team no less, and is currently a 23 year old multi millionaire, is he not? Doesn't sound too bad to me. I can assure you however, that I also experience the effects of prejudice not so much due to race, but as a woman, day to day in our culture. And Cam certainly has shown through his comments he's not very sensitive himself to this wrong doing.

Bottom line?

Some of this wouldn't matter if we were winning, but some of it would still need to change. But when you are losing, and you say things like that, what do you expect? It won't win you fans anywhere, including on your own team. It certainly didn't win me over, and in fact, I'm sure his comments only make it harder and more tiresome for Cam Newton fans like yourself to have to defend from women like me. But you won't get anyone on Cam's side if you call them racist for pointing out what they believe to be valid criticism. So if the amount of criticism seems disproportionate to you, perhaps it's because it's gotten to the point where it's not just a couple of racist bigots in the media saying these things, but it’s the white media, black media, and now black and white women as well. Even if some believe we have no credibility to criticize Cam Newton because we're all a bunch of racist...

...or worse, if we're just a bunch of "butthurt, moron females that need to man up". No thanks!

The hypocrisy of you feeling the need to suggest to me that I am refusing to acknowledge what you feel is sexism from Cam Newton towards some female reporter, while arguing with me that I shouldn't speak about racism against Cam is laughable.

Now to your points. Re-read my post. I never said that a certain group of people are feeling a certain way because of their race. I didn't defend his sideline demeanor (personally, I like it.) Im tired of all this leadership this and leadership that. The team sucks, the playcalling sucks, the game management sucks, his play sucks. OF COURSE he should be calling people out. The leader should demand excellence from his people. I would have shouted at Greg Olsen to for what he said. I didn't say shouting was right or wrong. I said that some people get away with it. Cam for whatever reason seems to be on eggshells. I will concede that he is not being a dominant leader of men. That would require a lot more shouting than Cam is doing.

Racism in sports exists. ADMIT IT!!!! Its part of the healing process. Sexism exists in sports. I will freely admit that. I don't like either one. Does that make you happy? However, accusing someone of racism is not racist. If you say that you are an idiot. Im sorry. Not calling you an idiot dont know you personally but the statement is idiotic. Cam is experiencing a racial bias in the media. Media outlets, in particular ESPN, (hate them, black and white male and female) are definitely biased when covering athletes. Its their job to make inflammatory statements to sell ad space. They have no credibility when it comes to discussing sensitive subjects and they should never be quoted when making a serious argument either way. They speak nonsense on purpose. Warren Moon was spot on when saying that Cam is only compared to other black athletes, in particular ones that are unpopular. He is not wrong in calling people out on that. Lots of people black and white, male and female agree with Warren, lots don't. Got it. But dismissing him because he is a black man talking about racism, well...

[PantherWhiskers]

The hypocrisy of you feeling the need to suggest to me that I am refusing to acknowledge what you feel is sexism from Cam Newton towards some female reporter, while arguing with me that I shouldn't speak about racism against Cam is laughable.

Now to your points. Re-read my post. I never said that a certain group of people are feeling a certain way because of their race. I didn't defend his sideline demeanor (personally, I like it.) Im tired of all this leadership this and leadership that. The team sucks, the play calling sucks, the game management sucks, his play sucks. OF COURSE he should be calling people out. The leader should demand excellence from his people. I would have shouted at Greg Olsen to for what he said. I didn't say shouting was right or wrong. I said that some people get away with it. Cam for whatever reason seems to be on eggshells. I will concede that he is not being a dominant leader of men. That would require a lot more shouting than Cam is doing.

Racism in sports exists. ADMIT IT!!!! Its part of the healing process. Sexism exists in sports. I will freely admit that. I don't like either one. Does that make you happy? However, accusing someone of racism is not racist. If you say that you are an idiot. Im sorry. Not calling you an idiot dont know you personally but the statement is idiotic. Cam is experiencing a racial bias in the media. Media outlets, in particular ESPN, (hate them, black and white male and female) are definitely biased when covering athletes. Its their job to make inflammatory statements to sell ad space. They have no credibility when it comes to discussing sensitive subjects and they should never be quoted when making a serious argument either way. They speak nonsense on purpose. Warren Moon was spot on when saying that Cam is only compared to other black athletes, in particular ones that are unpopular. He is not wrong in calling people out on that. Lots of people black and white, male and female agree with Warren, lots don't. Got it. But dismissing him because he is a black man talking about racism, well...

It is not at all hypocritical for me to suggest you are refusing to acknowledge sexism in his statement because you made it clear you don't think there's anything wrong with it. You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was.

Even in the interview his comments about script were about himself if you listen to the whole thing and the sweetheart comment didn't sound condescending to me but it was an insulting question from the reporter.

Those are your words are they not? In addition you claimed it was in response to an insult, but that simply wasn't true and I pointed it out along with the other inaccuracies in your original post.

I gave you an explanation as to why to me, as a woman, it was condescending. You, on the other hand, have failed to explain to me how simply comparing Cam Newton to Vince Young is racist or some of the other criticism thrown at him. Some of the comparisons may have been racially motivated, but at least when it comes to the Vince Young comparison and the media, that's a hard claim to make when one of the first guys to say it was Stephen A Smith. He's black.

Perhaps if Cam Newton, was more of a scrambling pocket passer like Donovan and Ben, and he was still being compared to Vince Young or Jamarcus Russell, then I would be more inclined to believe that's all due to racism. But that's simply not the case.

Now let me make it clear: I am not at all saying race isn't at times a factor in his criticism in the media or in forum discussions. Of course it is. My point is that not all of it is, a lot of it is valid, whether it's racially motivated or not, it still needs to be heard and talked about. But no one should stand for others trying to bully and silence everyone else that want to share what they feel as valid criticism. And what my point was that a lot of people using this tactic, are racist themselves. I never said accusing someone of being racist is racist. What I’m saying is a lot of times it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black and it’s a practice of hastily throwing that accusation to bully, silence, discredit and to avoid having to deal with the criticism. And you and I both know it! So why don’t you admit it too? Because that’s part of “the healing process” too and because it simply will never get anywhere! The practice of trying to boil down all arguments and criticism to some sort of manifestation of hidden racism in order to use those accusations and try to discredit those who make the arguments simply won't work. I could just as easily turn around and say all of your arguments are simply favoritism based on sharing the same race, so you have no credibility either. So why should anyone listen to it or take it seriously? Right? I think we both agree on this because this is the point you were alluding too at the end of the post, even though it’s incorrect.

But dismissing him because he is a black man talking about racism, well...

See, I'm not sure what argument you are responding to at the end, because I did not dismiss Warren Moon for being black and talking about racism. I simply provided you with even more African American media personalities, who share some of the Cam Newton criticism, and it’s hard to claim they’re being racist too. As far as Warren Moon goes, personally I think he has little facts stand on other than his personal opinion, personal experience and suspicions. He’s provided few to no points to back up his claim and few alternatives of better comparisons and how it should be. Once again, just how many other white dual rush quarterbacks of Cam’s size have come out of college over the past decade that he could have been better compared to? He’s provided few to no points to address that obvious fact and few alternatives of better comparisons and how it should have been. Of course you have dismissed the examples due to your own personal opinion deeming they have no credibility, endorsing Warren Moon, and you eventually turn around, simplified the argument so you can end it with a meme gif screaming "that's racist".

And that’s simply not going to work. And simply comparing Cam Newton to Vince Young, is not racist either. In fact, in my opinion, at this point it’s probably unfair to Vince Young. He had a winning record and has accomplished more. Again, what I'm trying to make you understand is that if I or anyone else feel their criticism is valid, and are being bullied with racial accusations in order to shut up, while ignoring the argument, that won't make it stop. It will only make it grow and get LOUDER! No matter how many gifs of kids crying racism you put in your reply.

By the way, if you honestly believe the solution to leadership issue is for Cam Newton, someone who has yet to gain the respect of his teammates, or yet to accomplish anything NFL players and fans hold of value, on a 1-5 team, after a 6-10 season, is for him to "scream louder", then in my opinion, when it comes to the topic of leadership…You clearly. Just. Don't. Get it.

[raleigh-panther]

People can post what they want and say what they want.

The fact is nobody's opinion about Newton matters except JR. He writes the paychecks. Newton represents him a whole helluva lot more than he does the fans.

If he has an issue with Newton he will handle it or direct Rivera to handle it.

I have issues with the national media in that they take snippets out of context and use it as a sound bite. Most, if not all, have never, ever watched a Panthers game or a Panthers practice or a full Panthers press conference.

The reality is simple. Newton will make it or he won't. It won't have anything to do with his skin color. If the Panthers don't like how he represents himself they are well within their contractual rights to muzzle him.

I would advise the writer to be more concered about players in the NFL with much more serious disgraces than not meeting what he believes is leadership. some below:

Dez Bryant, beats up on his Mother, still playing

Dante Stallworth, manslaughter DUI

Ben R. who is listed here and his attacks on women

the Icon, Ray Lewis, who knows a whole lot more than he admitted to about 2 people dying outside of his limo.

Pacman Jones, man paralyzed from shots fired and numerous other descretions.

For many more descretions based on actual arrest records:

http://www.utsandiego.com/nfl/arrests-database/

Now, the way I feel about, as long as Newton is not in this list, does not embarrass himself off the field and strives to get better on the field, I who gives a damn.

[carpantherfan84]

It is not at all hypocritical for me to suggest you are refusing to acknowledge sexism in his statement because you made it clear you don't think there's anything wrong with it. You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was.

Those are your words are they not? In addition you claimed it was in response to an insult, but that simply wasn't true and I pointed it out along with the other inaccuracies in your original post.

I gave you an explanation as to why to me, as a woman, it was condescending. You, on the other hand, have failed to explain to me how simply comparing Cam Newton to Vince Young is racist or some of the other criticism thrown at him. Some of the comparisons may have been racially motivated, but at least when it comes to the Vince Young comparison and the media, that's a hard claim to make when one of the first guys to say it was Stephen A Smith. He's black.

Perhaps if Cam Newton, was more of a scrambling pocket passer like Donovan and Ben, and he was still being compared to Vince Young or Jamarcus Russell, then I would be more inclined to believe that's all due to racism. But that's simply not the case.

Now let me make it clear: I am not at all saying race isn't at times a factor in his criticism in the media or in forum discussions. Of course it is. My point is that not all of it is, a lot of it is valid, whether it's racially motivated or not, it still needs to be heard and talked about. But no one should stand for others trying to bully and silence everyone else that want to share what they feel as valid criticism. And what my point was that a lot of people using this tactic, are racist themselves. I never said accusing someone of being racist is racist. What I’m saying is a lot of times it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black and it’s a practice of hastily throwing that accusation to bully, silence, discredit and to avoid having to deal with the criticism. And you and I both know it! So why don’t you admit it too? Because that’s part of “the healing process” too and because it simply will never get anywhere! The practice of trying to boil down all arguments and criticism to some sort of manifestation of hidden racism in order to use those accusations and try to discredit those who make the arguments simply won't work. I could just as easily turn around and say all of your arguments are simply favoritism based on sharing the same race, so you have no credibility either. So why should anyone listen to it or take it seriously? Right? I think we both agree on this because this is the point you were alluding too at the end of the post, even though it’s incorrect.

See, I'm not sure what argument you are responding to at the end, because I did not dismiss Warren Moon for being black and talking about racism. I simply provided you with even more African American media personalities, who share some of the Cam Newton criticism, and it’s hard to claim they’re being racist too. As far as Warren Moon goes, personally I think he has little facts stand on other than his personal opinion, personal experience and suspicions. He’s provided few to no points to back up his claim and few alternatives of better comparisons and how it should be. Once again, just how many other white dual rush quarterbacks of Cam’s size have come out of college over the past decade that he could have been better compared to? He’s provided few to no points to address that obvious fact and few alternatives of better comparisons and how it should have been. Of course you have dismissed the examples due to your own personal opinion deeming they have no credibility, endorsing Warren Moon, and you eventually turn around, simplified the argument so you can end it with a meme gif screaming "that's racist".

And that’s simply not going to work. And simply comparing Cam Newton to Vince Young, is not racist either. In fact, in my opinion, at this point it’s probably unfair to Vince Young. He had a winning record and has accomplished more. Again, what I'm trying to make you understand is that if I or anyone else feel their criticism is valid, and are being bullied with racial accusations in order to shut up, while ignoring the argument, that won't make it stop. It will only make it grow and get LOUDER! No matter how many gifs of kids crying racism you put in your reply.

By the way, if you honestly believe the solution to leadership issue is for Cam Newton, someone who has yet to gain the respect of his teammates, or yet to accomplish anything NFL players and fans hold of value, on a 1-5 team, after a 6-10 season, is for him to "scream louder", then in my opinion, when it comes to the topic of leadership…You clearly. Just. Don't. Get it.

Lady look. In the same way that you can take a conversation by two people that you have never met and apply a motive to one persons comments because you feel that being a woman gives you special insight into instances of Sexism,

"You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was"

Warren Moon can do the same thing about Cam, the media and racism. Its his right. You dont have to like it. He probably wouldn't like you either. And for the record I heard his entire statement not just the quoted stuff and he specifically said that he was not saying it was racist just stereotyping.

If I speak out and say that what Cam said was not sexist, I would expect some women to disagree. Some will disagree quite aggressively. Thats fine. This is a forum. I dont feel it is bullying when someone calls me out on my ideas. That is what it means to be openminded. Dont get defensive. If you cant take it then why are you here? And dont start with that "im not being defensive, Blah, blah blah." Your entire argument is about how people are mistreating you and your fellow racists when you side with other racists about racist stuff. And stop quoting Stephen A. Smith. He and Skip Bayless are not respected avenues of information. You ruin your entire argument and people up here will eat you alive for it.

You wanna compare Cam to Vince go ahead. Plenty of people have tried to explain to others how dumb that makes you sound. But I guess you would have had to have played the game to see the differences. But I will summarize.

Vince Young 6'5 230 Cam Newton 6'6 250. If you missed it, thats 20 pounds difference in body mass.

Cam Newton is running a read option pass attack. Vince Young ran a more West Coast play action pass attack.

Cam Newton is not nice when he is losing. Vince Young barely spoke to the media early in his career, but was hospitalized from his inability to handle emotional stress.

QB's that ran a sub 4.6

Jake Locker

Andrew Luck

Colin Kaepernick

Tyrod Tayler

Russel Wilson

Cam Newton

Vince Young

RGIII

Mike Vick

Terrelle Pryor

Steve Young

John Elway

Randall Cunningham

and a few others over the decades.

A large portion of the most recent QB's drafted break 4.7

6'6" QB's

Joe Flacco

Cam Newton

Derek Anderson

Josh Freeman

Nick Foles

Ryan Mallett

QB's over 240

Ben Rothlisberger

Cam Newton

Brock Osweiler

Byron Leftwich

Read Option QB's in NFL

Cam Newton.

West Coast QB's

Mike Vick

Vince Young

Russell Wilson

RGIII

Donovan McNab

Sam Bradford

I could go on but I think you get the point. Nobody has the combination that Cam has. Period. It has never been seen before. He runs an offense noone else ever has so his failures or successes are unprecedented. A comparison to Vince Young is either lazy, stupid, racist or all three. You can just as easily compare him to Steve Young as Vince Young.

Lastly, Dont you ever question my knowledge of or ability to lead men. I have dedicated my life to military service and have served 10 accomplished years so far and have received various awards and recognition for leadership. My biggest accomplishment being that I have never lost a man in combat. You would do well to watch your accusations especially when you speak of things you know nothing about. But football is not war. It is not life. It is a game. Played by well payed professionals. Not suckling little babes in need of a tender hand. There are some people within our organization that are not cutting it. Cam may be on that list but he is as close to the bottom as someone can be with a lot of people on the chopping block ahead of him in line.

[Iceberg Slim]

This thread shouldn't have been created.........

[Darth Biscuit]

I hope nobody thinks we're gonna read those 5,000 word posts... Geesh...

[Originalman]

Lady look. In the same way that you can take a conversation by two people that you have never met and apply a motive to one persons comments because you feel that being a woman gives you special insight into instances of Sexism,

"You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was"

Warren Moon can do the same thing about Cam, the media and racism. Its his right. You dont have to like it. He probably wouldn't like you either. And for the record I heard his entire statement not just the quoted stuff and he specifically said that he was not saying it was racist just stereotyping.

If I speak out and say that what Cam said was not sexist, I would expect some women to disagree. Some will disagree quite aggressively. Thats fine. This is a forum. I dont feel it is bullying when someone calls me out on my ideas. That is what it means to be openminded. Dont get defensive. If you cant take it then why are you here? And dont start with that "im not being defensive, Blah, blah blah." Your entire argument is about how people are mistreating you and your fellow racists when you side with other racists about racist stuff. And stop quoting Stephen A. Smith. He and Skip Bayless are not respected avenues of information. You ruin your entire argument and people up here will eat you alive for it.

You wanna compare Cam to Vince go ahead. Plenty of people have tried to explain to others how dumb that makes you sound. But I guess you would have had to have played the game to see the differences. But I will summarize.

Vince Young 6'5 230 Cam Newton 6'6 250. If you missed it, thats 20 pounds difference in body mass.

Cam Newton is running a read option pass attack. Vince Young ran a more West Coast play action pass attack.

Cam Newton is not nice when he is losing. Vince Young barely spoke to the media early in his career, but was hospitalized from his inability to handle emotional stress.

QB's that ran a sub 4.6

Jake Locker

Andrew Luck

Colin Kaepernick

Tyrod Tayler

Russel Wilson

Cam Newton

Vince Young

RGIII

Mike Vick

Terrelle Pryor

Steve Young

John Elway

Randall Cunningham

and a few others over the decades.

A large portion of the most recent QB's drafted break 4.7

6'6" QB's

Joe Flacco

Cam Newton

Derek Anderson

Josh Freeman

Nick Foles

Ryan Mallett

QB's over 240

Ben Rothlisberger

Cam Newton

Brock Osweiler

Byron Leftwich

Read Option QB's in NFL

Cam Newton.

West Coast QB's

Mike Vick

Vince Young

Russell Wilson

RGIII

Donovan McNab

Sam Bradford

I could go on but I think you get the point. Nobody has the combination that Cam has. Period. It has never been seen before. He runs an offense noone else ever has so his failures or successes are unprecedented. A comparison to Vince Young is either lazy, stupid, racist or all three. You can just as easily compare him to Steve Young as Vince Young.

Lastly, Dont you ever question my knowledge of or ability to lead men. I have dedicated my life to military service and have served 10 accomplished years so far and have received various awards and recognition for leadership. My biggest accomplishment being that I have never lost a man in combat. You would do well to watch your accusations especially when you speak of things you know nothing about. But football is not war. It is not life. It is a game. Played by well payed professionals. Not suckling little babes in need of a tender hand. There are some people within our organization that are not cutting it. Cam may be on that list but he is as close to the bottom as someone can be with a lot of people on the chopping block ahead of him in line.

Well fuging said!!

[PantherWhiskers]

Lady look. In the same way that you can take a conversation by two people that you have never met and apply a motive to one persons comments because you feel that being a woman gives you special insight into instances of Sexism,

"You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was"

Warren Moon can do the same thing about Cam, the media and racism. Its his right. You dont have to like it. He probably wouldn't like you either. And for the record I heard his entire statement not just the quoted stuff and he specifically said that he was not saying it was racist just stereotyping.

You wanna compare Cam to Vince go ahead. Plenty of people have tried to explain to others how dumb that makes you sound.

Lastly, Dont you ever question my knowledge of or ability to lead men. I have dedicated my life to military service and have served 10 accomplished years so far and have received various awards and recognition for leadership. My biggest accomplishment being that I have never lost a man in combat. You would do well to watch your accusations especially when you speak of things you know nothing about. But football is not war. It is not life. It is a game. Played by well payed professionals. Not suckling little babes in need of a tender hand. There are some people within our organization that are not cutting it. Cam may be on that list but he is as close to the bottom as someone can be with a lot of people on the chopping block ahead of him in line.

For some reason I feel like all this is leading to is you continuing to get more hostile and showing you are incapable of containing yourself to a civil discussion without throwing out labels such as stupid, lazy, racist or dumb as predetermined alternatives to your arguments. Basically anyone that doesn't agree with you is one or the other. What a novel idea!

First I just want to say you are unbelievable in twisting words and putting them back into people’s mouths. I never applied motive to Cam’s comments, and my explanation was for YOU, because you were the one that seemed ignorant to why that comes across as offensive to a woman and saw nothing wrong with it. And it's not a matter of opinion. I tried to explain it to you, that any grown woman would find that INSULTING in a professional setting when it is completely uncalled for. If I called you stupid, it's not a matter of opinion that I just insulted you.

Now It doesn't sway me that you decided to break down some quarterbacks, into a couple of choice statistical categories that matches your argument. A couple among thousands. Most casual fans who make up the majority of the NFL television fan base don't sit around and break down weight, height stats, and offensive systems like you do when they draw up their arguments. They look at a television screen, and they see a dual rush quarterback with very similar abilities, size and yes, color, who perform and play the game in a similar fashion. So I'm not going to sit here and get into a statistical category debate with you. But the simple fact that most people don't doesn't make them stupid, lazy or racist.

But just for the record, I do know my football as well, and once again I will point out you that Vince Young ran the read option in 2003 with the Long Horns. Also if you want to get technical, the Panthers offense is actually based on the Air Coryell.

In the end it doesn't really matter what offensive system they run out of. No two NFL offenses are the same anyway and it’s an ever evolving process. What everyone sees on the field, is that both quarterbacks are proficient in the same basic concept of either using designed or improvised pass/run plays to bring out the abilities which set them apart from the rest. The biggest and most noticeable difference that sets them apart from your typical pocket passer is simply their athleticism and their ability to run with the ball. It's that simple. If your argument is that people need to see the difference of an inch in height or 20 pounds of weight while wearing football gear or a tenth of a second difference when watching television is laughable.

On the other point, I don't have a problem with how Warren Moon feels about racism, but if you feel statistics are how you should compare quarterbacks, then Moon certainly matches your choice criteria of stupid, lazy or racist, because Cam Newton and his suggestion Jay Cutler don't share a whole lot of them.

So for the last time let me reiterate to you my problem isn’t with his comments, but rather with posters, who have a hell bent intent of always trying to boil down the discussions race and use racial accusations to silence or discourage and invalidate criticism they don’t want to deal with.

As far as your football acumen, I have no doubt it is sound, but I have pointed out inaccuracies over and over in your comments, and you have a tendency to make up your own convenient points to respond to.. For example, I never once quoted Stephen A Smith or used him as a source of credibility. But making that statement does weaken yours. I only used him to point out irony or hypocrisy when it comes to allegations of race in the media. He is the one of the most popular media heads that made the Vince Young comparison, and there happened to be an argument there that you completely ignored. You were the one that wanted to talk about racism in the media were you not?

As far as your leadership experience, I'm not questioning your knowledge based on your experience. I know nothing of it. However I know leadership as well, and I have held positions of leadership in society. Your leadership isn't in question here. Your suggestion is. You made a stupid suggestion in a response to me, and since that is all I have to go on, I'm questioning your knowledge based on your statement and Cam Newton's current situation because when you consider that, as you like to say, it's just plain stupid. And to see that it requires less experience and more common sense. So if that’s your solution, I will question it all I want until you have something better to offer than your military experience to back it up.

In the military, maybe your subordinates listened to your shout out orders, because they simply have no choice but to follow the chain of command. And congratulations on your war efforts and not costing men lives but it has nothing to do with our argument, and it still doesn’t back up or add any sort of weight to that HORRID suggestion. Nor does it excuse it! This is about leading in the NFL.

In the civil world, as well as football, leadership isn't attained by shouting. It is especially a counter productive suggestion for 23 year old spoiled brats who haven't done anything worth of gaining their respect. In fact, quite the opposite. Nobody on the Panthers squad would listen to Cam Newton's shouts. It comes from being assertive and leading by example or by achievement. Cam Newton has done neither. It's got to be earned. In this case, it doesn't come with the rank. And as we have noticed it more than once, it's the other Panthers pulling him by his ears, like a little boy, and telling him to get his act together. As long as this is taking place, he will never earn the right to shout at anyone for anything and doing that is not going to turn him into a leader or gain their respect.

Pretty lame. Personally, I don’t feel like continuing down this path because it feels like you are just interested in slinging mud at each other…or perhaps you just wanted to impress me with your resume.

[carpantherfan84]

But just for the record, I do know my football as well, and once again I will point out you that Vince Young ran the read option in 2003 with the Long Horns. DERP, DERP, DERP Also if you want to get technical, the Panthers offense is actually based on the Air Coryell. Derp.

[Cary Kollins]

Epic troll ms whiskers. I give it 3.5 "trolololols" out of four.

[Who Said What?]

Anybody else find it hypocritical that he's blasting certain media for pointing to race about every issue ever when that's been Whitlock's only gimmick for a decade now? This guy is so racist he doesn't even realize he's racist.

I hate this dude. He tries to minimize race and make it seem trivial, while trying to sound like some philisophical hate monger at the same time. All he does recently is talk shite about black athletes and how they need to quit hurting the black race as well as how black people need to get it together in general. It is racist!