A GM thread

[panther4life]

A few years back I posted a thread about how he has an unfortunate tendency to build around the wrong people. The context of that particular thread was his putting the 'transition tag' on DeShaun Foster. Sadly, the decision making hasn't improved much since.

And it's not just Everette Brown he traded up for. There's also Jeff Otah (more forgivable but still bad) and Armanti Edwards (pretty well unforgivable at this point).

Add in that just a few weeks ago - in a discussion about Don Gregory - I looked over the last five drafts before 2012. Here's what I found.

Bottom Line: If you want to build a franchise "The Steeler Way" then your drafts have to be way more hit than miss. Hurney is average at best, mediocre at worst. And the accumulation of draft day misses is starting to put us in a hole.

You mentioned the Steelers. and our 07-11 drafts. Heres what the Steelers have done in the same time frame.

POSITION SCHOOL 1 31 Cameron Heyward DE Ohio State 2 63 Marcus Gilbert T Florida 3 95 Curtis Brown DB Texas 4 128 Cortez Allen DB The Citadel 5 162 Chris Carter LB Fresno State 6 196 Keith Williams G Nebraska 7 232 Baron Batch RB Texas Tech 2010 - PITTSBURGH STEELERS RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 18 Maurkice Pouncey C Florida 2 52 Jason Worilds LB Virginia Tech 3 82 Emmanuel Sanders WR Southern Methodist 4 116 Thaddeus Gibson LB Ohio State 5 151 Chris Scott T Tennessee 5 164 Crezdon Butler DB Clemson 5 166 Stevenson Sylvester LB Utah 6 188 Jonathan Dwyer RB Georgia Tech 6 195 Antonio Brown WR Central Michigan 7 242 Doug Worthington DE Ohio State 2009 - PITTSBURGH STEELERS RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 32 Ziggy Hood DT Missouri 3 79 Kraig Urbik T Wisconsin 3 84 Mike Wallace WR Mississippi 3 96 Keenan Lewis DB Oregon State 5 168 Joe Burnett DB Central Florida 5 169 Frank Summers RB Nevada-Las Vegas 6 205 Ra'Shon Harris DT Oregon 7 226 A.Q. Shipley C Penn State 7 241 David Johnson TE Arkansas State 2008 - PITTSBURGH STEELERS RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 23 Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois 2 53 Limas Sweed WR Texas 3 88 Bruce Davis LB UCLA 4 130 Tony Hills T Texas 5 156 Dennis Dixon QB Oregon 6 188 Mike Humpal OLB Iowa 6 194 Ryan Mundy FS West Virginia 2007 - PITTSBURGH STEELERS RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 15 Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State 2 46 LaMarr Woodley LB Michigan 3 77 Matt Spaeth TE Minnesota 4 112 Daniel Sepulveda P Baylor 4 132 Ryan McBean DE Oklahoma State 5 156 Cameron Stephenson G Rutgers 5 170 William Gay CB Louisville 7 227 Dallas Baker WR Florida

http://www.nfl.com/d...=3900&type=team (use the link its much more legible).

Does that list really look much better?

Theirs is highlighted by Timmons,Woodley, Mendenhall,Mike Wallace,A. Brown and Pouncey

VS. Beason,Kalil,Johnson,Stewart,Lafell, Hardy and Cam. we managed this in spite of wasting a 2nd on Edwards and a first on Brown..and don't forget we got Olsen for a 3rd too.

and for good measure heres how their entire roster was complied. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Arf7vexBQ6EOdDJpSWZ5cUxDeXZtUmNtNm5iQTNkWEE&single=true&gid=3&output=html

[Floppin]

Never said that about Fiametta.

McClain is now with the Pats. We will see.

Hate to break it to you, but McClain was cut from the pats about three days ago.

[panther4life]

Just to be clear heres what our draft picks have netted us from 07-11 that are still members of the team. 20 picks a piece and 8 starters a piece in same time frame in spite of the Edwards,Otah, and Brown trade's which occurred in same time frame.

(starters in bold)

Beason

Kalil

Johnson

Stewart

Godfrey

Barnidge

Martin

Munnerlyn

Clausen

Lafell

Edwards

Hardy

Gettis

Cam

Fua

Hogan

Pilares

Zach Williams

Lee Ziemba

Olsen via trade

Over the same time frame heres the Steelers(starters in Bold)

Lawrence Timmons

Lamar Woodley

Rashard Mendenhall

Ryan Mundy

Ziggy Hood

Mike Wallace

Keenan Lewis

David Johnson

Maurkice Pouncey

Jason Worilds

Emmanuel Sanders

Stevenson Sylvester

Jonathan Dwyer

Antonio Brown

Cameron Heyward

Marcus Gilbert

Curtis Brown

Chris Carter

Baron Batch

Cortez Allen

[Mr. Scot]

Godfrey's nothing to brag that much about. Neither is Hardy. LaFell is decent but still not there yet. Johnson is ridiculously overpaid even given last weekend.

Kalil, Stewart and Beason are good, but do you think anyone outside of Pantherland would take them over their Steeler equivalents?

And to be clear, the reason I went back to 2007 originally was because I was looking at Don Gregory's tenure. Take a look back further (especially 2005) and it continues.

If you want a truly depressing exercise though, look back at some of the picks that were still on the board when we made some of those choices.

[Cyberjag]

Anyone want to take a stab at how our team would be doing with the Steelers' coaching staff and locker room tradition?

[DaCityKats]

Over the same time frame heres the Steelers(starters in Bold)

Lawrence Timmons

Lamar Woodley

Rashard Mendenhall

Ryan Mundy

Ziggy Hood

Mike Wallace

Keenan Lewis

David Johnson

Maurkice Pouncey

Jason Worilds

Emmanuel Sanders

Stevenson Sylvester

Jonathan Dwyer

Antonio Brown

Cameron Heyward

Marcus Gilbert

Curtis Brown

Chris Carter

Baron Batch

Cortez Allen

Emmanuel Sanders is the #3 WR and considering how much teams run 3 wides is a starter. Marcus Gilbert is the starting RT. would love to have their scouting director as a GM.

[panther4life]

Godfrey's nothing to brag that much about. Neither is Hardy. LaFell is decent but still not there yet. Johnson is ridiculously overpaid even given last weekend.

Kalil, Stewart and Beason are good, but do you think anyone outside of Pantherland would take them over their Steeler equivalents?

And to be clear, the reason I went back to 2007 originally was because I was looking at Don Gregory's tenure. Take a look back further (especially 2005) and it continues.

If you want a truly depressing exercise though, look back at some of the picks that were still on the board when we made some of those choices.

I just pointed out the starters only reason the likes of Godfrey and Keenan Lewis were mentioned.

I think everyone would take Kalil and Stewart over Pouncey and Mendenhall all day every day. Go back to 05 for the Steelers and it gets worst for them too. Its hard to compare Beason to their LB's. But are you insuating he was bad a pick now??

Ziggy Hood is nothing to brag about for them. Neither is Keenan Lewis. They are in danger of losing their best offensive weapon next year in Mike Wallace because of the Contract given to Antonio Brown.

So you you think Mendenhall and Pouncey are better than Stewart and Kalili...Unreal. People get on certain agenda's and make ludicrous statements to justify their unreasonable stance and a comment like that is a perfect example.

Lastly you think CJ is grossly overpaid. Do you think thats because Hurney offered more than he had to retain him? Losing him would have been a huge blow and even those who lead the Hurney hate parade have mentioned that it was the right move. BTW since he signed that Contract he has more sacks than Julius Peppers and 90% of the other starting DE's in the league.

[jarhead]

Hard to find a GM that bats 1.000 on draft picks. Hurney does better than most on the picks in the early rounds, which is a good thing, but he doesn't play Free Agency like he used to, which may not be. That could be on orders, no one is ever going to say.

The three biggest impacts he's had on the organization is hiring Fox, drafting Cam, and hiring Rivera.

Three biggest mistakes were Everette Brown, the whole Peppers thing, and losing Jenkins.

And he's on his own hot seat, JR's never going to fire him.

Accord to Bill Polian a GM should hit at least 50% on draft picks and I read where Hurney is hitting in the 45% range.After listening to him yesterday on radio 610 I think he is delusional.When ask about our secondary he defended the level of talent both as a unit and specifically Naka and Josh Norman.Now I know he has to defend individual players but not to the extent he did.If you think about it what the hell is he thinking a 5th round pick from a weak division that missed preseason can start at cb in the NFL?I think the guy will be good if his confidence is not shattered by the end of this season.On Naka he stated it was only one bad play that defined his effort against Atlanta and felt other than that he played well.I am sorry but this guy is not a good starting FS.......dont care how you slice it or dice it.From the interview it sounded as though he was about ready to fire himself

[Mr. Scot]

I just pointed out the starters only reason the likes of Godfrey and Keenan Lewis were mentioned.

I think everyone would take Kalil and Stewart over Pouncey and Mendenhall all day every day. Go back to 05 for the Steelers and it gets worst for them too. Its hard to compare Beason to their LB's. But are you insuating he was bad a pick now??

Ziggy Hood is nothing to brag about for them. Neither is Keenan Lewis. They are in danger of losing their best offensive weapon next year in Mike Wallace because of the Contract given to Antonio Brown.

So you you think Mendenhall and Pouncey are better than Stewart and Kalili...Unreal. People get on certain agenda's and make ludicrous statements to justify their unreasonable stance and a comment like that is a perfect example.

Lastly you think CJ is grossly overpaid. Do you think thats because Hurney offered more than he had to retain him? Losing him would have been a huge blow and even those who lead the Hurney hate parade have mentioned that it was the right move. BTW since he signed that Contract he has more sacks than Julius Peppers and 90% of the other starting DE's in the league.

I also would take Stewart and Kalil over Mendenhall and Pouncey, but I'm not so sure "everyone" would, unless the "everyone" is all Panther fans.

Under Hurney, we've drafted Sione Fua, Terrell McClain, Corvey Irvin, and Nick Hayden at defensive tackle. Which one of those would you take over Ziggy Hood?

And you wanna tell me what you've seen of Charles Johnson since his contract signing is worth 70 million plus, more than some other top DEs around the league?

And here's a 'rubber meets the read' question. Since 2002, the rosters produced by the Steeler system have faced one losing season and one 500 season. Every other year they've been in the playoffs. Two of those years they won the Super Bowl and two others they were in it.

Now tell me, what's the Panthers record in that time period?

Do you really wanna compare their roster building system and ours? And remember if you do that this is a team which doesn't go after big free agents and even lets a fair share of their own walk if their contract demands are too high.

[panther4life]

Emmanuel Sanders is the #3 WR and considering how much teams run 3 wides is a starter. Marcus Gilbert is the starting RT. would love to have their scouting director as a GM.

since Ron Hughes the Steelers scouting director took over heres their draft picks from 03-11 drafts.

Troy Polamolu

Alonzo Jackson

Brian St. Pierre

Ike Taylor

J.T Wall

Ben Rothlisberger

Ricardo Cocolough

Max Starks

Nathaniel Adibi

Bo Lacey

Matt Cranchick

Drew Caylor

Eric Taylor

Heath Miller

Bryant Mcfadden

Tray Essex

Fred Gibson

Rian Wallace

Chris Kemoeatu

Shawn Nua

Noah Harrington

Santonio Holmes

Anthony Smith

Willie Reid

Willie Colon

Orien Harris

Omar Jacobs

Charles Davis

Marvin Phillips

Cedric Humes

Lawrence Timmons

Lamar Woodley

Matt Spaeth

Daniel Supelveda

Ryan Mcbean

Cameron Stephenson

William Gay

Dallas Baker

Rashard Mendenhall

Limas Sweed

Bruce Davis

Tony Hills

Dennis Dixon

Ryan Mundy

Evander Hood

Kraig Urbick

Keenan Lewis

Mike Wallace

Joe Burnett

Frank Summers

Rashon Harris

A.Q. Shipley

David Johnson

Maurkice Pouncey

Jason Worilds

Emmanuel Sanders

Thaddeus Gibson

Chris Scott

Crezdon Butler

Stevenson Sylvester

Jonathan Dwyer

Antonio Brown

Doug Worthington

Cam Heyward

Marcus Gilbert

Curtis Brown

Cortez Allen

Chris Carter

Keith Williams

Barron Batch

Thats 70 players drafted from 03-11. How many of those would you be happy with as a steelers fan?

[panther4life]

I also would take Stewart and Kalil over Mendenhall and Pouncey, but I'm not so sure "everyone" would, unless the "everyone" is all Panther fans.

Under Hurney, we've drafted Sione Fua, Terrell McClain, Corvey Irvin, and Nick Hayden at defensive tackle. Which one of those would you take over Ziggy Hood?

And you wanna tell me what you've seen of Charles Johnson since his contract signing is worth 70 million plus, more than some other top DEs around the league?

And here's a 'rubber meets the read' question. Since 2002, the rosters produced by the Steeler system have faced one losing season and one 500 season. Every other year they've been in the playoffs. Two of those years they won the Super Bowl and two others they were in it.

Now tell me, what's the Panthers record in that time period?

Do you really wanna compare their roster building system and ours? And remember if you do that this is a team which doesn't go after big free agents and even lets a fair share of their own walk if their contract demands are too high.

Any non Steeler fan would take Kalil and Stewart over pouncey and Mendenhall..not just biased panther fans.

Hurney has never used a first round pick on a DT, so clever and all to compare ours to a first round pick who plays DE in a 3-4 and he's not even worth bragging about unless you compare him to late draft picks.

John Fox would have killed their nice shiny record if he was the coach there. No GM in the leauge is 100% responsible for the losses or wins of their franchise. Their job is to draft well and formulate a team that matches what their head coach wants and believes will create success. Pioli looked like a god until going to the Chiefs. The reality is every team in the NFL has talent.It truely is an any given sunday league where any team can beat the other, the tiebreaker in most situations is overall health and how coaches manage the game. I personally think Hurney has done everything within his power to build the right rosters for his head coaches.

I don't think many could do a better job than what he has. He falls on the sword for everything and the truth is Fox should have been fired no later than 09 and the 2010 season is all JR'S doing to get this team back on the right track. It really was a neccesary evil, that was created when JR decided to give Fox a 2nd chance and forced Hurney's hand in making bold moves that backfired like re-signing Delhomme and trading up for Everette Brown.

Hurney is not without fault's. In hindsight the Otah move was bad one long term, but no GM can predict future injuries.

Fox really crapped this team out bad. It started with Jenkins calling him out publicly and demanding a trade. Then Peppers tried to be politically correct about it and say he wanted to play for a 3-4 team(blatant lie obviously). There has been some extremely unfortunant things happen to this entire franchise. Fields getting cancer, Thomas Davis tearing 3 ACL's, Beasons Achilles Injury,smiths various injuries/suspensions, the list goes on and on.

This team has had talent every year. Hell he took over a 7-9 team, led them to a 11-5 record and superbowl appearance that was only lost due a terrible kick by Kasay.

Then in 04 we fell to 7-9, how did that happen? Well Davis, Foster, Jenkins all went out early with injuries, then Morgan and his concussions.

Ok so 05 we bounce back to 11-5 after making some nice additions in free agency.

06 we go back to 8-8 after the injury bug hits again.We had a winning record before losing our qb

07 we replinished Fox's need to have a running back anchor our offense with Deangelo. Problem was we got crushed with injuries again and got all the way down to vinny testaverde at QB and we fall to 7-9.

08- okay were back 12-4 behind a power rushing attack led by our 2 draft picks stewart and Otah, only to have Jake meltdown in the playoff loss to AZ.

09- things go to hell here and J.R has had it. He says Fox your done. Well actually I am going to keep you as a lame duck coach in 2010 and cut everybody.

10-we prepped for the lockout, kept a lame duck head coach and got fugged bad.

11- rebuilding begins. Things are looking up, we lead the leauge in "moral victories" hanging with the NFL's best teams and fall short when half our D goes down again and Mare shits the bed.

12-many holes were fixed by default with players returning from injury. In addition we find a playmaker at LB who many were calling the next coming of Urlacher to protect us from our injury prone LBing core. Then we find a bulldozing guard in the 2nd round and cut the underperfoming Wharton who is on the downside of his career. Revamp the entire special team core. Steal a stud corner in the 5th, add another good passrushing threat in Alexander and injury free....things look like poo now because we lost a close one to Atlanta and a depleted Giants roster embarresd us at home but not all hope is lost yet.

[Mr. Scot]

Any non Steeler fan would take Kalil and Stewart over pouncey and Mendenhall..not just biased panther fans.

Hurney has never used a first round pick on a DT, so clever and all to compare ours to a first round pick who plays DE in a 3-4 and he's not even worth bragging about unless you compare him to late draft picks.

John Fox would have killed their nice shiny record if he was the coach there. No GM in the leauge is 100% responsible for the losses or wins of their franchise. Their job is to draft well and formulate a team that matches what their head coach wants and believes will create success. Pioli looked like a god until going to the Chiefs. The reality is every team in the NFL has talent.It truely is an any given sunday league where any team can beat the other, the tiebreaker in most situations is overall health and how coaches manage the game.

Seriously doubt it's that cut and dry as far as those choices.

Draft priorities play into how you build a roster.

And you say John Fox would have destroyed the Steelers record. Tell me, who hired John Fox?

[thefuzz]

All you Hurney apologists always bring up how good he is in the 1st round.

Well no poo.

He has drafted 3 Linebackers and 2 runningbacks out of the 11 selections that he's had in 12 years.

Guess what the best picks are if you don't want to whiff on them?

LB's and RB's. They rarely wash out, and those are the positions that are normally stat poppers. They get loads of tackles and touchdowns, so it looks/seems like it's a great pick.

But there is a downside. LB in a 43, and RB's in today's NFL are not as valuable as the days of yesteryear. They don't equate to winning anymore.

I'm not even going to bring up EB in this one.

[Cyberjag]

Accord to Bill Polian a GM should hit at least 50% on draft picks and I read where Hurney is hitting in the 45% range.After listening to him yesterday on radio 610 I think he is delusional.When ask about our secondary he defended the level of talent both as a unit and specifically Naka and Josh Norman.Now I know he has to defend individual players but not to the extent he did.If you think about it what the hell is he thinking a 5th round pick from a weak division that missed preseason can start at cb in the NFL?I think the guy will be good if his confidence is not shattered by the end of this season.On Naka he stated it was only one bad play that defined his effort against Atlanta and felt other than that he played well.I am sorry but this guy is not a good starting FS.......dont care how you slice it or dice it.From the interview it sounded as though he was about ready to fire himself

Just want to point out that those are Rivera's decisions, not Hurney's. Those guys are both good and proven on special teams, fwiw.

I'm interested in where you're reading about Hurney hitting in the 45% range. Got a link?

I think he'll probably quit in the next year or two if the Panthers don't turn things around. But I still don't think JR will fire him.