Adam Schein "speaks"...

[Panther_mountain]

The cool part is that they play these games on the field and these silly hypothetical competitions will be sorted out for us.

Correct. I may need my head checked as I am wishing this weekend away wanting it to be Sunday now.

[CRA]

Exactly. We have the majority of the same core of players that went 12-4 a few years ago, added additional offensive weapons, replaced stubborn coaching staff with one that actually attacks, and swapped Delhomme for Newton. We are a better team than the 12-4 team.

I'd say both the OL and DL were collectively better back then....

We have 3 question marks at least for the start of this season. I think Piggy is regressing with age....plus, I think our 2 young guys have a ways to go. I think they can get there eventually just think some are too confident in their short term ability.

[rayzor]

They may pick in the top 10.... We did last year. I just expect improvement and for them to not be the easy win they were most of last year.

I think we win....I just don't see us stomping them. Old school fg deciding Panthers/Buc game.

I think we will be better against the run....unsure about the pass and ST. About the same on offense. We need to be more consistant on offense this year....hopefully Cam can do that

i think we'll see more of the old school TB/CAR battles later on, but not right away. i have no faith in them having things fixed enough that they can adequately make up for the improvements that we made going from last year to this year.

i expect them to find out that their wrinkles that need to be ironed out. the next time we play should be closer than this game but a lot of my optimism in this game comes from my belief that the bucs just won't be ready. i have very little faith in a new coaching staff in their first game of the first season...i don't care who it is.

[Panther_mountain]

With the debate of Peppers taking plays off...not sure I agree our 2009 OL and DL lines were any better off than they are now...

2009 Carolina Panthers roster

Offensive Linemen

• 73 Mackenzy Bernadeau G/C
  
• 67 Ryan Kalil C
  
• 64 Rob Pettiti T
  
• 72 Duke Robinson G
  
• 74 Geoff Schwartz T
  
• 68 Keydrick Vincent G
  
• 70 Travelle Wharton T/G
  
• 65 Garry Williams T
  

Defensive Linemen

• 96 Tyler Brayton DE
  
• 91 Everette Brown DE
  
• 98 Nick Hayden DT
  
• 95 Charles Johnson DE
  
• 61 Derek Landri DT
  
• 92 Damione Lewis DT
  
• 90 Julius Peppers DE
  
• 97 Hilee Taylor DE
  
• 75 Hollis Thomas DT
  

Reserve Lists

• 71 C. J. Davis G (IR)
  
• 58 Thomas Davis OLB (IR)
  
• 17 Jake Delhomme QB (IR)
  
• 69 Jordan Gross OT (IR)
  
• 60 Corvey Irvin DT (IR)
  
• 59 Landon Johnson OLB (IR)
  
• 99 Ma'ake Kemoeatu DT (IR)
  
• 94 Louis Leonard DT (IR)
  
• 12 Josh McCown QB (IR)
  
• 79 Jeff Otah OT (IR)
  
• 89 Steve Smith WR (IR)
  
• 93 Tank Tyler DT (IR)
  

[CRA]

The 2008 12-4 Panther team is the one mentioned.....not the 2009 one.

That was the team I commented on....that OL was flat out SICK. DL I would give a slight edge to as well.. Pep had 14.5 sacks and 5 FFs.

I don't see the argument of the 2012 lines being better than 2008

[Udogg]

Baron, VJACK and Martin are significant upgrades over the Poo poo platter they put up last year. Crafty 30 years in the league Barber at safety along with the rookie makes me nervous. I believe we will win this game. However I won't be Miracle on Ice shocked if we lose.

[Udogg]

Also saying they can't be better this year is like saying you can't go from 32nd ranked offense to 7th.

[Panther_mountain]

The 2008 12-4 Panther team is the one mentioned.....not the 2009 one.

That was the team I commented on....that OL was flat out SICK. DL I would give a slight edge to as well.. Pep had 14.5 sacks and 5 FFs.

I don't see the argument of the 2011 lines being better than 2008

google typo on my part....Here is 2008. Again, same, not better than now.....If you go back to our Superbowl run....yes they were a TON better...but not 2008.

2008 Carolina Panthers final roster

Offensive Linemen

• 65 Mackenzy Bernadeau G
  
• 73 Jeremy Bridges G
  
• 69 Jordan Gross T
  
• 63 Geoff Hangartner G/C
  
• 67 Ryan Kalil C
  
• 76 Frank Omiyale T
  
• 79 Jeff Otah T
  
• 70 Travelle Wharton G
  

Defensive Linemen

• 96 Tyler Brayton DE
  
• 78 Nick Hayden DT
  
• 95 Charles Johnson DE
  
• 99 Ma'ake Kemoeatu DT
  
• 92 Damione Lewis DT
  
• 98 J'Vonne Parker DT
  
• 90 Julius Peppers DE
  
• 66 Hilee Taylor DE
  
• 93 Darwin Walker DT
  

Reserve Lists

• 11 Jason Carter WR (IR)
  
• 57 Dan Connor LB (IR)
  
• 91 Gary Gibson DT (IR)
  
• 10 Ryne Robinson WR (IR)
  
• 68 Keydrick Vincent G (IR)
  

[rayzor]

i think this OL is at least as good as the one in '09.

i think we'll also be surprised at how well this Dline does. we may not have peppers, but i think the rotation we have on DE makes this position about as strong as it was and having the edwards wall will help. also i'm absolutely positive that our LB corps is improved from there and that they will play a bigger role in the pass rush than the previous one so i think as far as the front 7 is concerned we are at least even with that '09 group. the advantage that this defense has is in the management of it. it will be a lot more adaptive than the previous one.

i think our run game is better and more efficient. our passing game....wow, no comparison really. cam and this receiving corps is a lot better than that year and we also have, as i said with the defense, a much more adaptive coaching staff.

this team last year could have won several more than it did and the reason it lost them was a combination of injuries (and compensating for them), a lack of experience in the system, and just a tendency to make mistakes brought about by the youth of the players (incl. QB) that was made worse than it probably would have been b/c of the lack of offseason. i think mistakes will be significantly cut down this year and the players will be much more disciplined. you fix all of that and we win 3-4 more games than last year at least.

[CRA]

i think this OL is at least as good as the one in '09.

i think we'll also be surprised at how well this Dline does. we may not have peppers, but i think the rotation we have on DE makes this position about as strong as it was and having the edwards wall will help. also i'm absolutely positive that our LB corps is improved from there and that they will play a bigger role in the pass rush than the previous one so i think as far as the front 7 is concerned we are at least even with that '09 group. the advantage that this defense has is in the management of it. it will be a lot more adaptive than the previous one.

i think our run game is better and more efficient. our passing game....wow, no comparison really. cam and this receiving corps is a lot better than that year and we also have, as i said with the defense, a much more adaptive coaching staff.

this team last year could have won several more than it did and the reason it lost them was a combination of injuries (and compensating for them), a lack of experience in the system, and just a tendency to make mistakes brought about by the youth of the players (incl. QB) that was made worse than it probably would have been b/c of the lack of offseason. i think mistakes will be significantly cut down this year and the players will be much more disciplined. you fix all of that and we win 3-4 more games than last year at least.

Well, like I said, I was responding to someone bringing up the 12-4 team....not the 2009 one. I'd give them the edge on DL over the 2009 one probably.

[Panther_mountain]

Well, like I said, I was responding to someone bringing up the 12-4 team....not the 2009 one. I'd give them the edge on DL over the 2009 one probably.

Who was on the line in 2008 and wasn't in 2009 making the line worse off in 2009?

[CRA]

google typo on my part....Here is 2008. Again, same, not better than now.....If you go back to our Superbowl run....yes they were a TON better...but not 2008.

2008 Carolina Panthers final roster

Offensive Linemen

• 65 Mackenzy Bernadeau G
  
• 73 Jeremy Bridges G
  
• 69 Jordan Gross T
  
• 63 Geoff Hangartner G/C
  
• 67 Ryan Kalil C
  
• 76 Frank Omiyale T
  
• 79 Jeff Otah T
  
• 70 Travelle Wharton G
  

Defensive Linemen

• 96 Tyler Brayton DE
  
• 78 Nick Hayden DT
  
• 95 Charles Johnson DE
  
• 99 Ma'ake Kemoeatu DT
  
• 92 Damione Lewis DT
  
• 98 J'Vonne Parker DT
  
• 90 Julius Peppers DE
  
• 66 Hilee Taylor DE
  
• 93 Darwin Walker DT
  

Reserve Lists

• 11 Jason Carter WR (IR)
  
• 57 Dan Connor LB (IR)
  
• 91 Gary Gibson DT (IR)
  
• 10 Ryne Robinson WR (IR)
  
• 68 Keydrick Vincent G (IR)
  

2008 DL had 30 sacks. 9 FFs. A Pep that played. A great rotational CJ.

2008 OL is what keeps it from being a debate IMO. That OL makes the 2008 lines > 2012 lines.

Also, your list leaves off a great one year FA move. Keydrick Vincent. Running behind him and a healthy Otah was as good as it got in the NFL that year. Right side of that OL was a beast....the rest was Kalil, Gross, an a dang good version of Wharton.

[Panther_mountain]

2008 DL had 30 sacks. 9 FFs. A Pep that played. A great rotational CJ.

2008 OL is what keeps it from being a debate IMO. That OL makes the 2008 lines > 2012 lines.

Im not comparing performances and whether or not Pep decided to play. Im comparing rosters. The 2008 line is almost identical to the 2009 line. No significant changes. People taking plays off, whoever they may be, is another story.

[rayzor]

Well, like I said, I was responding to someone bringing up the 12-4 team....not the 2009 one. I'd give them the edge on DL over the 2009 one probably.

i don't know...i think for the most part there wasn't a whole lot of difference between the 12-4 team and the '09 team, was there? jake got hurt/fell apart and teams figured out foxball and foxy didn't change. i think that was the main difference there.