KC Joyner: Cam 3rd Best Player Under 25

[PantherPhann89]

I don`t understand how the lockout helped Cam, that statement doesn't make sense to me.

[rayzor]

I don`t understand how the lockout helped Cam, that statement doesn't make sense to me.

i think it helped him because it gave him a leg up on defenses who didn't have time to prepare for him...and that was with him not being "prepared" himself.

just imagine what it's going to be like when he plays after having a year under his belt and a full offseason worth of work and his first season ever(?) with the same OC and same system as the year before.

i can't imagine that defenses are going to be anymore prepared for that. they will have been watching game tape and preparing for the unprepared cam newton.

[thatlookseasy]

The idea is that the lockout prevented both the defense for preparing for Cam and Cam preparing for the defense, and with both sides unprepared Cam's natural talent was able to win out.

Of course, this means that if you are expecting him to regress you think that defenses will do a better job of preparing for Cam with a full offseason than Cam will preparing for the defense, which given the amount of time and effort he has spent working on his game is IMO an incorrect assumption

[CarolinaPanthers8789]

I don't think anyone is doubting that McCoy is a great player. But 29 TD's in two years does not compare with 35 in one year.

In a league where teams give up just about anything to get a franchise QB (see RG3 in Washington), and where RB's are being de-valued (see MJD in Jax), it's hard to justify McCoy over Cam.

I wouldn't exactly characterize what you said (above bold) as a sound argument because you are comparing rushing and passing touchdowns to rushing and receiving touchdowns.

McCoy's rushing touchdowns and Cam's passing touchdowns are comparable but McCoy's receiving touchdowns and Cam's rushing touchdowns are not. I also wouldn't compare McCoy's rushing touchdowns to Cams rushing touchdowns because most of Cam's rushing touchdowns came in the red-zone as McCoy can run one in from anywhere on the field (I know Cam had a fifty yarder against the Bucs, I was there).

Regardless, there is no need to act like a homer like a lot of other people on this board because Cam was just a rookie last year; so to be third on that list is an honor. Cam's time will come and he will eventually top just about every list you can think of.

[Mage]

I don't think anyone is doubting that McCoy is a great player. But 29 TD's in two years does not compare with 35 in one year.

There is a reason you see someone like Palmer throwing 26 touchdowns in one season and someone like AD never coming close to that amount. Trying to compare, mostly, bulk rushing touchdowns to a combination of passing and rushing is completely unfair.

It comes down to this. McCoy is a top five running back. Newton is not a top five quarterback. McCoy is clearly a better player as of now than Newton. This isn't about who you would rather have. Obviously that is Newton, he plays quarterback. But this is about who is better. McCoy is better at running back, as of now, than Cam is at quarterback. I don't see the issue whatsoever in putting McCoy over Cam.

[fieryprophet]

If the question is what players you would build a franchise around (and that is the slant on this article) then there's no way you don't start with quarterbacks. Look at how long the Vikings have had Adrian Peterson, and look at how little they could get done without a decent QB.

McCoy is great, but I wouldn't build a franchise around him. This list should have all QBs, frankly.

[Mage]

Just actually read the article, the snippet anyway. He does say its a list of cornerstone players.

But I still stand by what I say. Anybody saying McCoy is only productive because of the Eagles system must not watch Philadelphia or have an incredible bias.

[panthers55]

Looking at the first and second half of Cam's season and concluding that defenses caught up with him is obviously a cursory look at the stats and lacks any analysis. Yes he threw for big yards in the first half of the season but as has been stated before, teams blitzed him and we knew from college that Newton had a higher completion percentage against the blitz than he had in general. We were running a pretty standard drop back passing scheme, had a new coordinator who didn't know what he had, and were playing in shootout games largely from behind. So we passed like crazy and he had big passing games. Defense were using man press coverage and we were burning everyone deep.

Toward the end of the year, teams were playing more of a cover 2 zone, keep things in front of them, and trying to contain the option as well as limit the YAC and deep balls. Newton and the offense ran more especially late to preserve wins and control the clock. The passing game was shorter and he spread the ball around more with the emphasis on moving the chains. So his raw numbers went down but his quality stats were not that different.

First 8 games: Rating- 87, WPA- 8.3, TD/INT- 11/9 or 1.22

Last 8 games- Rating- 81, WPA- 7,2, TD/INT- 10/8 or 1.25

So what can you conclude when teams used a cover 2 zone to keep things short and prevent the big pass in the second half of the year coupled with the Panthers trying to protect leads instead of catching up?? Newton's YPA went down because he threw more underneath routes. Otherwise his ratings and efficiencies were very similar.

[Mage]

JW but how are you getting that quarterback rating? Newton finished with a 84 QBR on the season, so he would not have been able to have an 88 and 89 rating respectively in the two "halves" of the season.

But I agree with you. Newton was definitely showing improvement as the season wore on.

[panthers55]

JW but how are you getting that quarterback rating? Newton finished with a 84 QBR on the season, so he would not have been able to have an 88 and 89 rating respectively in the two "halves" of the season.

But I agree with you. Newton was definitely showing improvement as the season wore on.

Since I didn't calculate it by plugging in all the raw data for each half but used the stated individual game ratings and averaged them over the first and second halves, they aren't exactly the same as their formula because my average weighs each game the same which isn't totally accurate.

Here are the numbers using the formula:

first half- passer rating was 87.043

second half- passer rating was 81.4

The biggest difference in the ratings were YPA which varied by almost a yard.

Completion percentage was 60% the first half and 59 the second half

TDs as a percentage of attempts was 3.83 the first half and 4.35 the second half.

Int passes percentage was 3.14 the first half and 3.48 the second half.

[pstall]

im a huge fan of KC Joyner. love his break downs and looking beyond the normal stats everyone looks at.

panther55 also brings some good info into this as well. i don't put much stock into qb ratings because it doesn't acct for WHEN a qb throws and are they ahead or behind. in the 2nd half, a good team gets the lead and runs/control the clock or throws short yet higher % passes.

the first couple of games this year will show both how cam has grown and how opposing defense's have changed their gameplan to offset cam's game.

i expect to not only see more cover2 but start to look for an old school spying LB to come back into vogue in the NFL soley based on Cam.

[PantherPhann89]

i think it helped him because it gave him a leg up on defenses who didn't have time to prepare for him...and that was with him not being "prepared" himself.

just imagine what it's going to be like when he plays after having a year under his belt and a full offseason worth of work and his first season ever(?) with the same OC and same system as the year before.

i can't imagine that defenses are going to be anymore prepared for that. they will have been watching game tape and preparing for the unprepared cam newton.

Again, I don't see that as help for Cam. He (Cam) wasn't anymore prepared for defenses than they were for him. If anything, I'd say that defenses had an advantgage because Cam was facing NFL defenses for the 1st time.

[iamhubby1]

Again, I don't see that as help for Cam. He (Cam) wasn't anymore prepared for defenses than they were for him. If anything, I'd say that defenses had an advantgage because Cam was facing NFL defenses for the 1st time.

I was thinking, the first few games he was relying mostly on his athletic ability. He would just drop back, see a throw, then make the throw. Sure he had film study and he was prepared. Yet, to me, looking back, he looked almost... unsmooth is the word. Just get the play over, and try not to screw it up kinda thing. As his confidence grew so did his swag. Once that started Chud unleashed the hound.

This year? Defenses can talk all they want about ways to slow us down. It just ain't gonna happen. You do not stop a talented QB, let alone one that scares the beegees out of you with his legs. And I am positive Cam, Shula, and Chud will be working just as hard to make life miserable for opponents.

Cam's talent, coupled with Chud is what gave Defenses a hard time last year. Shortened off-season or not. Ok, I'll give you Arizona being shocked and awed. And GB was the same. After that? It is all fair in love and war. And last I knew the NFL was a battle every week. Close enough you dimwits.

Just a few thoughts. And GOOOOOO CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PantherPhann89]

I was thinking, the first few games he was relying mostly on his athletic ability. He would just drop back, see a throw, then make the throw. Sure he had film study and he was prepared. Yet, to me, looking back, he looked almost... unsmooth is the word. Just get the play over, and try not to screw it up kinda thing. As his confidence grew so did his swag. Once that started Chud unleashed the hound.

This year? Defenses can talk all they want about ways to slow us down. It just ain't gonna happen. You do not stop a talented QB, let alone one that scares the beegees out of you with his legs. And I am positive Cam, Shula, and Chud will be working just as hard to make life miserable for opponents.

Cam's talent, coupled with Chud is what gave Defenses a hard time last year. Shortened off-season or not. Ok, I'll give you Arizona being shocked and awed. And GB was the same. After that? It is all fair in love and war. And last I knew the NFL was a battle every week. Close enough you dimwits.

Just a few thoughts. And GOOOOOO CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. Cam's talent helped him not the lockout. Goooooooo Panthers