Fox/Hurney's Tenure for the Panthers

[RazzleDazzle]

I got to rank Fox in the top 5 of coaches coaching right now. He really turned our team around, remember when we went 1-15? We almost looked worse than the lions.

[SCP]

I've been thinking on the issue of Fox and the fans. How there are two sides who either like or dislike him. And with that, I look at the positives he has had throughout his career as our HC and also, I see the negatives. I'm giving you a little prelude to my theory that deals with Fox's tenure as a Panther coach (Hurney included as GM) to see if it makes any sense...

Being on the Huddle and being a huge Panther fan, what I think we’ve been watching is how Hurney and Fox seem to have had their growing pains at their positions with the team. They both have learned over the years together and I really feel they have their best years ahead.

They both came into their positions for the first time with our team and have gone through growing pains as they face issues at their positions... With the way they seem content with their roster between '06 - '07 to be changing in their ways (becoming more aggressive- in the draft in particular) and trying to grow as they figure out a method that works best..

Fox came in as a HC and turned the franchise around to go 7-9. Obviously, a good coach. Especially to go to the Superbowl the year after. However, '04 we were decimated with injuries. Okay, go for depth. In '05, we had a great defense and a decent offense carried by Smitty and Jake. However, the injury bug hit us with our RB and as we got deeper in the playoffs, our lack of a #2 helped us hit a brick wall in the playoffs.

So Fox has a few years under his belt... But just like us all, we are always learning, and again, he only has a few years under his belt as a HC.

'06 and '07 happen, and I think looking back, we can chalk that up to the growing pains I mentioned. Trying to figure out how to change/adapt and make things happen to win. But without making too drastic of changes, because the negatives could be horrible. For instance, they were far too stubborn in finding a #2 receiver in those years. Also, it took 2 losing seasons before we retooled our OLine. I think perhaps there might have been a hot seat coming into the '08 year, so they pulled out all the stops.. By then they have a new scouting dept. We have a great draft, and they get more aggressive and make moves to get what they want. It pays off.

We saw success, but our defense was suffering after we put a great offense on the field. Changes to adapt came by unloading the defensive coaches and bringing in new ones. We saw in the draft this year, more aggression (and hopefully our scouting dept makes a huge difference again with solid picks in the later rounds.)

With this all going on, I have a feeling Fox/Hurney are growing in their positions and finding new ways to be successful. Our draft has stepped up in a big way in the last 2 years and now with Meeks focusing on fundamentals, I hope we start seeing our backups or starters get replaced by our own players. Reports from minicamp seem to show Davidson adapting to Meeks’ idea of technique as well as our new QB coach. And we are seeing this evidence this year.

Granted, we can talk about play calling. We can talk about Pep. We can talk about all the bullpoo we think they should be doing. However, in the end, I think we'll see they haven't plateaued... They have become better.

All of this is just off the top of my head and hopefully it makes sense. I just have a feeling after the next 5 years when we look back on that time, we'll see more success than we expected.

I'm looking forward to the best Panther football we've seen....

Once again, Bleys impresses. I hear ya bro, good post. This has been my thinking all along.

[Mr. Scot]

i have been guilty of calling him one of the best coaches in the NFL in the past. using the same standards i have for what i want the panthers to do, i honestly cant. the really good ones get results. they win consistently and consistently put your team in a position to win it all.

fisher hasn't done that. fox really hasn't either. both still could but i don't think you wait 15 years to find out.

Jeff Fisher is one of those guys that helps separate the casual fan from the ones that are really paying attention.

Ask most people and they'll call him one of the best coaches in the NFL. Show that same person his win-loss record and they'll likely be surprised.

[panthers55]

Cowher inherited a much better team than Fox did and I don't remember a number of years where he dealt with the loss of his quarterback all year or catastrophic injuries and still had a winning season.

As for Fox, the team he inherited is alot like Detroit was last year. If Jim Schwartz comes in this year and Detroit goes 7-9 this year, 11-5 next year and goes to the Superbowl and has the exact same track record as Fox has had over the next 5 years after that, will people be calling for his head and saying he sucks or will they hail him as a great coach and responsible for the biggest turnaround of a team since................ John Fox.

On another note if the bar someone mentioned for a successful coach is to have 3 winning seasons in a row, someone do the research and tell me which coaches other than Belicheck have had 3 winning seasons in a row over the past 5 years.

For what it is worth I think Fox's finest year as a coach was 2004. He took a team devasted by injuries and finished the last half of the season 6-2 with a bunch of backups and a few veterans like Moose and Jake. He only finished 7-9 but the finish in 2004 set up the run in 2005 to the NFC Championship.

[Mr. Scot]

I'm unconvinced that Cowher can replicate his success (such as it was) outside of the Steeler system.

[mantal]

I'm not gonna say yeah or neigh about Fox, the subject is as volatile as Delhomme and Peppers where everybody is fully entrenched with their opinion. All I'm going to say is that Fox is the reason why our expectations are so high, they weren't before he came...

[DaveThePanther2008]

I'm unconvinced that Cowher can replicate his success (such as it was) outside of the Steeler system.

I concur

Been there, done that. We saw what the machine that George Seifert brought us. 2 years of hell.

I WILL KEEP FOX TYVM

[panthers55]

Jeff Fisher is one of those guys that helps separate the casual fan from the ones that are really paying attention.

Ask most people and they'll call him one of the best coaches in the NFL. Show that same person his win-loss record and they'll likely be surprised.

On the other hand, a guy like Andy Reid has a regular season record of 97-62 and a post season record of 10-7 but is often criticized for failing to win a Superbowl and by many is not considered a great coach. Yet he has one of the best winning percentages over the last decade.

[Mr. Scot]

On the other hand, a guy like Andy Reid has a regular season record of 97-62 and a post season record of 10-7 but is often criticized for failing to win a Superbowl and by many is not considered a great coach. Yet he has one of the best winning percentages over the last decade.

Reid is one of those "Schottenheimer" type coaches, a guy that can win a lot of regular season games but can never seem to close the deal in the big one. Dennis Green was that kind of coach too, and you could argue Jeff Fisher still is. Mike Holmgren wasn't when he was with the Packers, but arguably became that with the Seahawks.

Bill Cowher and Tony Dungy were once in that class as well, but worked their way out.

[rayzor]

Jeff Fisher is one of those guys that helps separate the casual fan from the ones that are really paying attention.

Ask most people and they'll call him one of the best coaches in the NFL. Show that same person his win-loss record and they'll likely be surprised.

you know a lot of it is situational. take george seifert (painful memory, i know) but in san fran...legendary. in carolina...legendary.

is fisher a good coach in that situation? no. the results haven't shown that to be true. would he be better in another situation? maybe.

there are other coaches like that as well who have been horrible coaches in that they can't get their team to win but you place them in another situation and their stars. you take some teams who will have one coach that they stink it up with and another that they tear it up with. take another team with a great record with one coach and then a new one comes in and everything crumbles.

the situation dictates a lot. one of the fears that people have always had is that if fox went somewhere else he would have them win a superbowl while we were left behind. that could happen but if he couldn't get it done here for some reason i wouldn't care what he did with another team as long as we were going the right direction with another. us working to find someone who could do better with who we have here would be the only concern that i have.

[Fireball77]

On another note if the bar someone mentioned for a successful coach is to have 3 winning seasons in a row, someone do the research and tell me which coaches other than Belicheck have had 3 winning seasons in a row over the past 5 years.

I hear ya...but the problem with that is that IMO sometimes owners give up on HCs too early. As of right now, there are only 8 coaches who have piloted their team for 5 or more years. Belichick, Lewis, Fisher, Del Rio, Coughlin, Reid, Smith (Lovie), & Fox. Of this list, it's only Belichick who has had winning records over three past years. The Eagles were 8-8 & missed the playoffs in 2007 and in 2006 the NYG were 8-8 and made the playoffs.

[frash.exe]

we were talking about the years he might have had to grow as a coach, not the years he looks good or bad... the 1st 2 years he obviously didn't have obstacles to overcome..

noone said anything about take out the years he looks bad and keep the ones where he looks good.

believe me, this isn't the first time, people are always doing that effect, it goes something like this:

2002-7/9: Okay first year

2003-11/5: SB BERTH!

2004-7-9: Injuries-he gets a pass

2005-11-5: NFC championship game appearance

2006-8/8: PASS (injuries again)

2007-7/9: PASS (injuries and our slightly above average QB being replaced by QBs who couldn't make it in arena league)

2008-12/4: NFC SOUTH CHAMPS

so of course when you break it down like this he looks like a world beater.

...but you could do that for just about ANY coach is what i'm saying.

[panthers55]

I hear ya...but the problem with that is that IMO sometimes owners give up on HCs too early. As of right now, there are only 8 coaches who have piloted their team for 5 or more years. Belichick, Lewis, Fisher, Del Rio, Coughlin, Reid, Smith (Lovie), & Fox. Of this list, it's only Belichick who has had winning records over three past years. The Eagles were 8-8 & missed the playoffs in 2007 and in 2006 the NYG were 8-8 and made the playoffs.

Exactly. You know that Belichick is the only one, I know that too, now everyone else does as well.

And your point about owners giving up too soon on coaches is right on as well. Everyone is looking at the next rising star or next great coach without realizing that even Belichick failed in Cleveland before he found success in New England.

It illustrates the reason why setting a bar like having 3 winning seasons in a row is unrealistic given the nature of the NFL particularly with injuries to key players.

[bleys]

believe me, this isn't the first time, people are always doing that effect, it goes something like this:

2002-7/9: Okay first year

2003-11/5: SB BERTH!

2004-7-9: Injuries-he gets a pass

2005-11-5: NFC championship game appearance

2006-8/8: PASS (injuries again)

2007-7/9: PASS (injuries and our slightly above average QB being replaced by QBs who couldn't make it in arena league)

2008-12/4: NFC SOUTH CHAMPS

so of course when you break it down like this he looks like a world beater.

...but you could do that for just about ANY coach is what i'm saying.

I hear ya and agree with your points. However, my post on that issue had nothing to do with Fox getting a break this year or that year... As I've already stated to JOAT, the case could be made that Fox brings in/keeps players around that are injury prone. I think in '06, that was the case. We had injuries, but we had 5 or 6 injury prone players who had issues every year leading up to '06.

That would be Fox's fault.. no break given there.

Which is why I said, don't take my comments to mean "Fox gets a break". I've already argued your side, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

If you wanted to clarify in the post above to cut off those who are going to try to make that point, so be it. I'm ranting for nothing. lol

I think Fox gets a pass for the '04 and '07 season, but perhaps that is another thread for another day. '06 can be debatable, but I know I was frustrated with the injuries we knew we were going to face already.

What I am saying is the 1st 2 years didn't offer much for learning on your toes like the last 6 did...

That point is only relevant to the person saying "he's had 8 years".. Well- that's an accurate statement, but leaves out the early success Fox had where he had no major obstacles like losing half your team to injury.