Delhomme to 40??

[Fireball77]

I think underclassman vs Sr and college completion % under 60% are pretty reliable indicators as well.

Also, I think Fox and Hurney view QB as a leadership position even moreso than being a "OMGZ!!1 must be a pretty thrower" position. It's obvious to me from the three guys they have now that bears it out. All of them have been praised for their intangibles at one point or another. That's practically all they had to go on with Jake when they brought him in. They veered off that when they tried it out with Carr, IMO. The guy who was mainly seen to have talent but not as much having exhibited the other stuff. Obviously, that backfired on them and it seemed that Carr's teammates weren't that thrilled to be playing for him. Even Weinke had good physical skills, but lacked that mental part. They want a leader of their offense, so I would be very, very shocked if they ever brought in another head case with skills like Carr, or a guy like Weinke who wasn't a headcase but had no ability to lead men. Any guy they draft will HAVE to show that they have the intangibles first IMO. And I don't disagree with that. I would use that to eliminate QBs myself if I were scouting.

[kennyofsc]

of course not he can't hold on to ball long enough

[DaveThePanther2008]

I dont remember Ryan Leaf playing in any playoff games. Vince is a lil screwy in the head and bitched up on his teammates in game 1 of last year. He's gonna have to win them back to become a starter again. But replaced by Collins? LOL. 5 INTs in the Super Bowl Kerry Collins? Call his hispanic teammate a racial slur Kerry Collins? Quit on the Panthers in the middle of the season Kerry Collins? The bar is set low for Vince to get his job back. It was Collins he replaced in 06.

This isn't about Collins. I don't care for what he did to us as a matter of fact I wish he blew out his Knee when he went to N.O. But that is the past. YOUNG has issues. Bigtime issues. I will give you he has the talent but until he proves he had turned the corner. Compromise. ALMOST BUST

[monstercat]

Good grief, how can anybody bash Delhomme and then defend Vince Young?

[The Link]

Good grief, how can anybody bash Delhomme and then defend Vince Young?

Because Young is black QB and that means that everyone who criticizes him is racist. Duh.

[CatMan72]

Well, we won't know until we get there... all depends on how Jake performs over the next 5 years. The Panthers love them some Jake, but if things get bad enough they'll yank him.

[carolinarolls]

Well, we won't know until we get there... all depends on how Jake performs over the next 5 years. The Panthers love them some Jake, but if things get bad enough they'll yank him.

..what do you think their actual parameters for "bad enough" are?

[Fiz]

Of course, cuz you aint gonna do it. Its easier to follow the "they all suck" logic around here.

yes im constantly criticizing black QBs me personally fantastic.

Still would not call him a BUST. Im not even a big fan of Campbell but the guy is solid.

i didn't call him a bust either. just correcting your blatant falsehood.

Isnt that why you were so high on Cutler? It surely couldntve been him folding down the stretch last year or the fact he really hasnt done poo in this league but sport a funny haircut and strongarm the Broncos.

um no I've never said a single thing about the pro bowl because it's a completely useless metric. Also Cutler doesn't play defense so I'm not sure what you're talking about folding down the stretch. And while he hasn't done poo in the league except become an amazing passer and quarterback very early in his career, he's done more than both of the QBs you're white knighting.

...who has the most impact on a game.

the coach

Jake defenders use it all the time around here.

when trying to justify your own stupid opinions, don't bring up other people equally stupid opinions to someone who has made neither.

...who has the most impact on a game. Jake defenders use it all the time around here.

when trying to justify your own stupid opinions, don't bring up other people equally stupid opinions to someone who has made neither.

Yeah but he did, so your point it moot. He made the playoffs. Something we're ready to give our mediocre QB a huge contract extension for.

rookie of the year is just some arbitrary award that doesn't mean anything. it means that some people thought that in the 8 games he played he was the best/most impactful among a group of rookies. this doesn't mean anything at all about his ability as a QB. it was also an award he had no business winning, but that's neither here nor there.

and again, he was on a team that got to the playoffs. he didn't play defense, which was one of the best in the league. he threw twice as many interceptions as he did touchdowns, which is embarassing. they made the playoffs despite him.

If Matt Ryan & Atlanta flop I still would not consider him a "bust". He'll just have had a bad sophomore campaign and wont be the "saviour" he's proclaimed to be.

i was assuming you meant bust as in never played as well again.

Delhomme has had what 8 seasons? And still cant read 1!!! LMAO.

that's not true at all.

Its straight comedy you think Jake Delhomme's upside is better than Vince fuging Young's at this point.

whooooooops never said that

Vince Young has no Steve Smith on his team and puts up the same 120-150 yard performances our QB regularly does.

if i take the time to parse delhomme's stats without steve young and show that his average numbers over his entire career sans steve smith are better than vince young's would you either A. Ignore it or B. Accuse me again of hating black QBs?

Vince Young played in 1 game last year, he sits behind Kerry Collins. Let me repeat, Kerry fuging Collins who after playing well as a "game manager" and riding the Chris Johnson wave will turn back into Kerry Collins.

i'm not sure how this is anything but an indictment of Vince Young.

Vince Young has already supplanted him as a starter once in his career, would not shock me to see it happen again soon next season.

barring injury collins will the be QB all year next year and Fisher has basically said as much so your argument really has nothing backing it up except your own ability to post ad nauseum about it until whoever you're arguing with gets tired of your sheer black panther lunacy.

[Fiz]

I dont remember Ryan Leaf playing in any playoff games.

Collins? LOL. 5 INTs in the Super Bowl Kerry Collins?

kerry collins is better because he's advanced farther in the playoffs.

I am posting as King Taharqua.

I don't know anything about Football, and I will now respond to Fiz with something childish and unfunny, likely a play on the same post he just directed at me.

also I'm literally sitting in a puddle of my own urine right now.

[The Link]

Good grief, how can anybody bash Delhomme and then defend Vince Young?

Because Young is black QB and that means that everyone who criticizes him is racist. Duh.

[Nu Guns]

And so has been the story, ...every year. People putting off QB, "ah we'll take care of it later on". Kinda like a "cross that bridge when we get to it" deal. Well the time has almost come where we're rapidly approaching the bridge, and I can't help but almost realize, we....just might not give a poo about talent at QB. Whether or not our business model is getting a QB to "Manage" a game, how has that worked out the last few years? Teams with talented QBs have been winning the last 5 superbowls and beyond. Teams with talented QBs get to the playoffs more consistently. Teams with the running game/strong defense model have been more often flash-in-the-pan teams. Teams that can't muster consistent playoff runs, teams that don't make it that deep.

...and don't tell me anything about "ohhhh the risk is too big to assume". You can try and succeed, try and fail, or not try and fail. That's my POV. And, oh, we won't try to tie money in a bona fide QB, but we'll gladly pay a disgruntled DE 16 or even 20 million dollars, a guy who has hot streaks and COLD streaks. A guy who's basically proven he can't be a team leader, and a guy who is doing his very best right now to throw the wrench in our plans. ...yea, that's our highest paid player. Nice.

I did research about our "emulated" franchise, the Steelers in the Cowher era. For 15 years Bill almost always had that defense and that running game. It got them in the playoffs, but when they had Kordell Stewart and Maddox, and these other guys that weren't good passers on their team they went nowhere in the playoffs. ...Until they got Ben Roethlisberger, 1st round. 2 superbowl victories since.

Just because Management feels like they made the right decision doesn't mean they did. Doesn't make you any smarter than anybody else just because you agree with them either. Doesn't make me or anybody else less of a fan because I don't. Doesn't mean this little contract extension, BTW the LARGEST contract extension given to a player the age of Jake, won't blow up in their face because they are hard-headed and can't figure out very rarely do QBs keep their luster and capabilities well into their late 30s.

:cornut:

Great post Bull

[frash.exe]

In Ben's 1st Superbowl he managed the team. It wasn't him who won it.

I can reverse your scenario for one team. New England. They drafted Tony Eason in 1983 1st round, They Drafted Drew Bledsoe 1st Round. It took a 6th round QB T. Brady to finally put them over the top.

Johnny Unitas was cut by the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Bart Starr was a 17th round draft choice. In our day that is an UDFA.

Roger Staubach Round 10 another UDFA

1983 John Elway Baltimore Colts HOF 2 SUPERBOWL W'S

1983 Todd Blackledge Kansas City Chiefs BUST

1983 Jim Kelly Buffalo Bills HOF 4 SB 0 WINS

1983 Tony Eason New England Patriots AVG

1983 Ken O'Brien New York Jets BUST

1983 Dan Marino Miami Dolphins HOF 1 SB 0 WINS

1986 Jim Everett Houston Oilers BUST

1986 Chuck Long Detroit Lions BUST

1987 Vinny Testaverde Tampa Bay Buccaneers SOLID

1987 Kelly Stouffer St. Louis Cardinals BUST

1987 Chris Miller Atlanta Falcons BUST

1987 Jim Harbaugh Chicago Bears AVG

1989 Troy Aikman Dallas Cowboys HOF 3 SB WINS

1990 Jeff George Indianapolis Colts AVG

1990 Andre Ware Detroit Lions BUST

1991 Dan McGwire Seattle Seahawks BUST

1991 Todd Marinovich Los Angeles Raiders BUST

1992 David Klingler Cincinnati Bengals BUST

1992 Tommy Maddox Denver Broncos BUST

1993 Drew Bledsoe New England Patriots SOLID

1993 Rick Mirer Seattle Seahawks BUST

1994 Heath Shuler Washington Redskins BUST

1994 Trent Dilfer Tampa Bay Buccaneers*** AVG 1 SB WIN W/DIFFT TEAM

1995 Steve McNair Houston Oilers HOF 0 SB

1995 Kerry Collins Carolina Panthers BUM AVG

1997 Jim Druckenmiller San Francisco 49ers BUST

1998 Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts 1 SUPERBOWL W

1998 Ryan Leaf San Diego Chargers BUST

1999 Tim Couch Cleveland Browns BUST

1999 Donovan McNabb Philadelphia Eagles 1 SB 0 WIN

1999 Akili Smith Cincinnati Bengals BUST

1999 Daunte Culpepper Minnesota Vikings AVG

1999 Cade McNown Chicago Bears BUST

2000 Chad Pennington New York Jets AVG

2001 Michael Vick Atlanta Falcons AVG

2002 David Carr Houston Texans BUST

2002 Joey Harrington Detroit Lions BUST

2002 Patrick Ramsey Washington Redskins BUST

2003 Carson Palmer Cincinnati Bengals SOLID

2003 Byron Leftwich Jacksonville Jaguars BUST

2003 Kyle Boller Baltimore Ravens BUST

2003 Rex Grossman Chicago Bears BUST

2004 Eli Manning San Diego Chargers 1 SB 1 WIN

2004 Philip Rivers New York Giants SOLID

2004 Ben Roethlisberger Pittsburgh Steelers 2 SB 2 WIN

2004 J.P. Losman Buffalo Bills BUST

2005 Alex Smith San Francisco 49ers BUST

2005 Aaron Rodgers Green Bay Packers TOO SOON TO TELL

2005 Jason Campbell Washington Redskins BUST

2006 Vince Young Tennessee Titans BUST

2006 Matt Leinart Arizona Cardinals BUST

2006 Jay Cutler Denver Broncos PRO BOWL

2007 JaMarcus Russell Oakland Raiders BUST

2007 Brady Quinn Cleveland Browns TOO SOON TO TELL

2008 Matt Ryan Atlanta Falcons ROY

2008 Joe Flacco Baltimore Ravens TOO SOON TO TELL

Some you could argue either way Bottom line there were more Bust (30 out of 56) then superstars.

9 Super Bowl wins between 5 QBs (Elway, Aikman, P. Manning, E. Manning, B. Roethlisberger)

*** Dilfer is not counted because he won with a different team than who drafted him***

That mean 14 of last 25 Super Bowls were won by a QB that was drafted After the 1st round.

Rebuttal?

my rebuttal?

The last FOUR superbowls were won by teams who started a first round QB. And on the contrary with what you thought about Big Ben being a "game manager". Are we talking about the same Ben Roethlisberger who threw TDs and INTs to a 7-1 ratio and over 200 yards a game passing in the playoffs before the SB? So that's just "managing a game"?

SO all you've proved to me is that it is a risk to draft QBs in the first round. ...I already knew that. Drafting players in general is a risk.

Next assignment for you: Find every single UDFA QB as far back as you can in history that at least got a shot on a team roster and tell me what the percentage is of finding one who can lead a team to the playoffs and beyond.

...is it 1%? 0.08%?

[monstercat]

my rebuttal?

The last FOUR superbowls were won by teams who started a first round QB. And on the contrary with what you thought about Big Ben being a "game manager". Are we talking about the same Ben Roethlisberger who threw TDs and INTs to a 7-1 ratio and over 200 yards a game passing in the playoffs before the SB? So that's just "managing a game"?

SO all you've proved to me is that it is a risk to draft QBs in the first round. ...I already knew that. Drafting players in general is a risk.

Next assignment for you: Find every single UDFA QB as far back as you can in history that at least got a shot on a team roster and tell me what the percentage is of finding one who can lead a team to the playoffs and beyond.

...is it 1%? 0.08%?

I've got an assignment for you...name all the teams who drafted a 1st round QB bust, but were still in contention to get to the Super Bowl within 5 years after that draft.

It works both ways. If you miss on a 1st round QB, you're screwed for years to come...just ask all of those coaches who ended up analyzing games for ESPN, instead of keeping their HCing jobs.

And yeah, I know that the Titans were still contenders after Vince Young flamed out, but that's only because they already had one of the best defenses in the league, and were lucky enough to have Kerry Collins as a back up plan. They are obviously the exception to the rule.

[King Taharqa]

um no I've never said a single thing about the pro bowl because it's a completely useless metric. Also Cutler doesn't play defense so I'm not sure what you're talking about folding down the stretch. And while he hasn't done poo in the league except become an amazing passer and quarterback very early in his career, he's done more than both of the QBs you're white knighting.

Cutler played in a Mike Shanahan system known for making QBs look better than they are (Griese, Plummer). You dont know about folding down the stretch? Dude lost what, his last 5 games of the year. If he's the amazing passer and QB you claim he is, you telling me he couldnt manage to win 1 of those? Cutler's just another overhyped passing QB that gets brownie points just for showing up. Wake me when he's done something in this league. Wow he threw 20+ TD passes 2 years in a row! Even sorry ass Aaron Brooks did that, dont make him "amazing" by no means.

when trying to justify your own stupid opinions, don't bring up other people equally stupid opinions to someone who has made neither.

Hi Im Fiz, my favorite teams QB had 6 TOs in his last playoff game, but he didnt cost us the game. One player cant dictate the outcome of a win or a loss. LOL. Just like a QB can go out there and win you games, he can also go out there and lose you some too. Dont know why thats so hard for you to grasp.

rookie of the year is just some arbitrary award that doesn't mean anything. it means that some people thought that in the 8 games he played he was the best/most impactful among a group of rookies. this doesn't mean anything at all about his ability as a QB. it was also an award he had no business winning, but that's neither here nor there.

If Vince didnt deserve it that year who did? 8-5 as a starter, 4 4th quarter comebacks, almost took that garbage team to the playoffs.

i was assuming you meant bust as in never played as well again.

No, I meant bust as in never was good. You know like a JP Losman or a David Carr.

that's not true at all.

Its very true, he sucks at reading coverages and struggles with attacking defenses unless he's in a hurry up mode. Matt Ryan as a rookie last year scans the field better than Delhomme ever has. Whether its missing guys wide open, or throwing into double & triple coverages, Delhomme isnt the sharpest tool in the shed. The guys 34 and still reads the field like Vince did at 24. LOL.

whooooooops never said that

Good cuz you'd be wrong. Jake's best days are behind him. We wont see the 2004-2005 Delhomme again. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but the odds are against it.

if i take the time to parse delhomme's stats without steve young and show that his average numbers over his entire career sans steve smith are better than vince young's would you either A. Ignore it or B. Accuse me again of hating black QBs?

I never accused you of hating black QBs. I might accuse you of overhyping some white ones who have done less, but I never said Fiz hates black QBs. What's Delhomme's win loss record without his stud? I will not argue you one bit about Delhomme being a far better passer than Young I just want to see what his record and stats look like in the games he hasnt had a top 5 WR to stretch the field and go to with.

barring injury collins will the be QB all year next year and Fisher has basically said as much so your argument really has nothing backing it up except your own ability to post ad nauseum about it until whoever you're arguing with gets tired of your sheer black panther lunacy.

Fisher said the exact same thing in 06. If Collins starts out slow like he did that year, Vince will be back out there. They're paying him too much money not to.