A Few ?'s For Those Convinced Hurney Sucks

[panther4life]

OP.. its obvious you are trying to shift blame on Fox, but the reality is Fox won more with The Golden Calf of Bristol than Rivera could do with the team Hurney gave him...

I dont understand people who were glad to get rid of Fox, but happy to keep Hurney

1. is it Rivera's fault we had 2 rookies starting at DT, a position that most people agree takes about 2-3 years to develope in

2. was it smart to have no true back up for T. Davis who was coming off of 2 ACL injuries?

3. is Rivera responsible for having only 1 good CB (Gamble) to put on the field?

1.Well we did sign Ron Edwards to start and he had no prior injury history to speak of. In addition we wiped our roster clean of any none core players in 2010(our owners idea to prep for lockout), so to expect no holes would be crazy.

2. No but linebacker was thought to be a position of strength depth wise in preseason by most.

3.Nope not Riveras fault but once again all of our dead weight was cut the prior year and it was only natural to have some holes.

I'm not pretending Hurney is the greatest GM ever but I don't think he flat out sucks like many on here who only participate in a thread to profess their misguided hate for him.

[Ivan The Awesome]

This is going to be interesting.

[panther4life]

A prime example of Hurney catering to his coach's preferences was the trade he pulled of for Olsen btw.

[panther4life]

Marty Hurney took over as the General Manager in 2002. Here is a look at how he's drafted and molded our team through free agency since the departure of George Seifert.Here is what our roster looked like before he took over that year.

2002-

We had just lost 15 games in a row. But we actually had some decent pieces in place.

Offense

Receiving threats- Walls, Moose, and Donald Hayes were our biggest receiving threats. Walls and Moose had already proven themselves so their down years were not on them.

QB- 2nd year QB Weinke threw for nearly 3k yards but only completed 54% of his passes.

RB- The Biakabutuka experiment was coming to an end as he could not stay healthy. 29 Richard Huntley was our biggest threat at this point and we let him go as a free agent.

0-line-Our offensive line was not great. Turnstile Steussie was LT, Jeff Mitchell was our best o-lineman and Donnalley was servicable but 33 years old at RG. RT was Chris Terry and Jamar Nesbitt was our LG. Then of course we had a rookie special team monster named Steve Smith who took the ball in for a TD the first time he touched it.

Defense

Defensive Line- Another experiment was coming to an end and it was called Sean Gilbert. He eventually gave the spot up to Buckner and rookie Kris Jenkins saw some action with 11 starts and accumulating 2 sacks. Our best D-lineman at the time was Rucker who got 9 sacks and played like he actually cared.

Linebackers- Dan Morgan got 11 starts and was 5th on the team in tackles and proved he was going to be a beast. The other lb's sucked bad, I mean real bad,Hannibal Navies and Lester Towns were the names.

Secondary- Doug Evans our high priced free agents contract was up,Our previous years 1st round pick Rashard Anderson failed to earn the other starting spot. Then of course we Minter the proven vet(since 97) by this point and Deon Grant completed our safety tandem.

2002 Offseason

Key Free agency additons. 1.Mark Fields OLB

2.Al wallace(great rotational DE)

3.Terry Cousins cb-serviceable joruneyman CB who ended being our #1 CB

4.Rodney Peete, John Fox's prototype at QB. game manager who can hand the ball of cleanly.

Key loss

Doug Evans left this year

The Draft

2002 1st Rounder-2nd overall- Peppers DE. BPA and completed what would become a dominant D-line.

2nd rounder- Deshaun Foster RB, filled a huge need

3rd rounder-Will Witherspoon OLB, another huge need

4th rounder- Dante Wesley, again another huge need

from their on they just took fliers on bpa taking fasani,Heinrich and couple other non contributors

Now all of a sudden our Defense was deadly. With a front 7 of Rucker,Buckner,Jenkins,Peppers,Will Witherspoon,Dan Morgan, Mark Fields, and safties Mike Minter and Deon Grant behind them wow! Then of course Cousins and Reggie Howard were both just okay(both much better than Munnerlyn as starters btw). And Dante Wesley became the nickelback.

So great defense and still putrid offense. Even Steve Smith, Moose, and Wesley Walls could not overcome Rodney Peete the statue at QB. On top of that our newest RB, Foster got injured and never saw the field that year. Of course the offensive line got no upgrades so it still sucked too outside of Mitchell and Donnalley.

2002's team finished 7-9 and a capable offense away from being a superbowl threat.

2003 Offseason

Key Free Agency additions

1.Jake Delhomme, steve smiths new best friend.

2.Stephen Davis,John Fox's new best friend.

3.Ricky Prohel WR,Mr. clutch.

4.Doug Brzenski G, he was supposed to help the line and become the anchor at LG.

2003 Draft.

Round 1. Jordan Gross- Best lineman in team history

Round 2. Bruce Nelson G. (was supposed to be really good, hip injury killed him)

Round 3.Mike Seidman TE.-not bad, a new blocking threat for Fox's offense who has okay hands if needed

Round 3. B. Ricky Manning Jr. CB- Hurney traded up(collection of late round picks) to grab our new nickel back.

Round 4. Colin Branch S, flier on someone who may someday take Minters spot

Round 5.Kindal Moorhead DT, good depth pick and possible successor to Buckner. (spider bite or something fugged him up 1 year in training camp and never heard from again)

the rest is not worth mentioning

Result-Superbowl bound(damn you Kasay:()

2004 Offseason

Key Free agent signings

1.Brandon Short-good depth at LB, protection against the recently diagnosed Mark Fields who found out he had hodgkins disease before the superbowl run

2.Travis Claridge- another failed attempt at finding a new Guard

1st significant player leaves through free agency- Deon Grant goes to the Jags

2004 Draft

Round 1.Chris Gamble CB- Finally a great #1 Corner

Round 2. Keary Colbert WR- Moose's eventual replacement(well that was the idea at the time anyway)

Round 3.Travelle Wharton OL- Thank goodness the Steussie era is over. That jerk went to the bucs that year in free agency.

Round 4.Drew Carter- A tall skinny speedster at W.R.(its almost as if he knew Moose was going to go chase some money the next year and prepped for it with 2 W.R. picks)

last 2 picks sucked but what do you expect out a 6th and 7th rounder

2004 seasonResult- 7-9 record. Injuries demolished us.(Steve smith went down after 1 game, Stephen Davis,Deshaun Foster and Kris Jenkins were right behind him and the concussions started getting the best of Morgan)

2005 Offseason

Key Free agent signings.

1.Ken Lucas CB- solid corner to pair with Gamble

2.Mike Wahle G-highly touted guard from Green Bay

3.Chris Draft- good insurance for Dan Morgan

4.Marlon Mcree S- hard hitting safety

5.Idrees Bashir S- finally a replacement for Deon Grant?

6.Freddie Davis TE- wow is fox really considering using a TE?

05 losses-

1.Mushin Muhammed- got a big payday from the bears

2. Fields, damn cancer was back

2005 Draft

Round 1. Thomas Davis S.- A Vick spy, could play safety or LB and had the speed to chase Vick around

Round 2.Eric Shelton- thought to be a new powerback to take place of aging and oft injured Stephen Davis. Right idea but terrible pick

Round 3.Evan Mathis OG- lol go look at his other thread

Round 3b.Attayah Ellison pick we acquired from seattle in exchange for trading down 9 spots in the 2nd where we took Shelton, seatle got Lofa Tatupu

Round 4- Stefan Lefors QB- have no idea why, project i guess but that one

failed

Round 5-Adam Seward- poor mans Dan Connor

Round 5b.(compensatory pick)Hangman G- you should know about him

2005 season results

11-5 and deep playoff run only to lose the NFC championship to seattle

2006 Offseason

Key free agent signings

1.Kemo DT- fat space eating machine

2.Keyshawn Johnson-replacemnet for Moose

2.Damione Lewis DT- decent addition to the line

3.Justin Hartwig C- new starter to take Kevin Mitchells place

2006 players lost

1.Will witherspoon- got a stupid deal to play MLB in ST Louis

2.Ricky Manning Jr.-Chicago wanted him more than we did

3.Dante Wesley- see above

4.Marlon Mcree- San Diego snatched him up

2006 Draft

1.

1.Deangelo Williams RB- nice choice

2.Richard Marshall CB-replacement nickel and possible # 2 down the road

3. James Anderson-replacement for the departed Witherspoon

the rest sucked and no significant impact

2006 season result 8-8

2007 offseason

Key signings

none, well okay we did sign David Carr

Key loss

1.Keyshawn Johnson

2.Chris Draft

2007 Draft

Round 1.Jon Beason- great pick in the 1st again

Round 2. Dwayne Jarret- terrible pick in the 2nd again

Round 2b.Ryan Kaili- part of the beason trade down deal with the jets

Round 3. Charles Johnson- Awesome value pick

rest is forgettable

2007 season Tommy Jone epidemic hits the huddleand Kris Jenkins blows the hell up and demands trade.

season result 7-9

2008 offseason

Key free agency signings

1.Keydrick Vincent G- veteran mauler

2.Tyler Brayton- good additon to the d-line

3.D.J Hackett- well he sucked but hurney tried

about 5 others who were cheap and did not pan out

Key free agent losses

Not that they were missed but the Colbert and Drew Carter experiments ended

2008 Draft

Round 1. Jonathan Stewart

Round 1B. Jeff Otah- if only he could stay healthy

Round 3. Charles Godfrey

Round 3b. (for Jenkins from Jets) Dan Connor

Round 5. Gary Barnidge

Round 6. Nick Hayden DT

Round 7. Hilee Taylor DE

Round 7B. Geoff Schwartz G

Round 7c.Mackenzy Bernadeau G

2008 Results- were back! 12-4, then Jake Melts down against AZ.

2009 Offseason

quiet offseason, but we do give Jake a big deal to get his confidence back and franchise Peppers for the last time

Hangman goes to Buffalo

2009 Draft Hurneys worst draft ever

Rund 1. Traded for Otah

Round 2.(goodbye next years first)Everette Brown-panic pick in anticipation of losing Peppers next year

Round 2. Sherrod Martin

Round 3.Corey Irvin DT

Round 4.Mike Goodson

Round 4B.Tony Fiammeta (let the zod hype machine begin)

Round 5.Duke Robinson-well he fell like hell why not

Round 7. Captain Munnerlyn

2009 Season results 7-9 (oh yay were finally going to fire fox, okay well not yet got to prepare for the lockout now)

[panther4life]

2010 Offseason

Roster purge continues and Peppers leaves for Chicago

2010 Draft

1.gave it away for Everette Brown

2.Jimmy Clausen- I foolishly rejoiced

3.Brandon Lafell- so far so good

3b.Armanti Edwards- why Hurney WHY??

4.Eric Norwood- meh

6.Greg Hardy-not sold yet, his run d is very bad

6b. Gettis- hopefully he'll recover fully and contribute next year

7. Pugh

couple more that are not in the picture anymore

Roster purge continues and Peppers leaves for Chicago

2010 Season result 2-14

John Fox says f.u Richardson and we get the last laugh because we end up with the # 1 pick and Cam Newton

2011

Fox gets canned(long overdue)

Rivera,Chud, and Mcdermott come aboard-Very happy, and relieved we did not seriouslt consider Greg Manusky

Key offseason signings

1.Ron Edwards-tears his pectormal muscle and we never see him

2.Olindo Mare- I wanted to hurt the guy as I was leaving the stadium after the Minnesota loss

3.Legadu Naane-

4.We keep every damn free agent we were worried about losing

5.Early in the season we sign Applewhite

2011 Draft Results

1.Cam Newton- Thank you very much

2.Armanti, :mad:

3.Mcclain

3b.Fua

4.Hogan

5.Pilares

couple others

7.Lee Ziemba

2011 result 6-10, but we are back on track and we finally have a franchise QB!!!

2012 tbd

These quotes are from a post I made back in feb, to give some a refresher on his work

[Lumps]

1.How many GM's do you rank above him?

2.Would you rather have fired Hurney and kept Fox?

3.In the seasons we missed the playoffs under his and Fox's tenure(02,04,06,07,09,and 2010) do you feel like he was to blame for not supplying Fox with enough talent?

4.Did he do a bad job in building a team based of Fox's preferences?

5.Outside of trading up for Edwards and Brown what do you deem as his biggest failures and think he did them against Fox's will?

6.In our worst season under his era as GM (2010),do you not think this happened due to Richardson prepping for the lockout?

7. What are the biggest free agent additions you think we missed on because of him?

I'll play along I am sure this is directed towards me.

1. Why are you asking this? This thread is bait. You asked poeple who thinks Hurney sucks to reply, so you have alreaddy selected your audience with your own agenda. I still answer though becayse I rank him as average and wouldn't say he sucks overall. Hard to say really how do you rank a GM? Record? Players? An even mixture of them all or some more than others? All I can say is I think he is average.

2. I'd rather keep Hurney, if I had to choose but I have no idea how this is relevant or would ever be an alternatum, their jobs are extremeley different.

3. Each year has mutiple different, unique reasons we did not make the playoffs. It is impossible to decipher what impacts the player the most, player talent vs. coaching talent vs. scouting talent so spreading the blame or credit eveneley seems to be the best option. Is Beason the way he is as a player, or because of our coaching? If Luke doesn't turn out is it our coaching? If he does is it credited to Hurney? Or because he is just a beast in nature. That is a pointless argument you can have with anyone until you're numb; all of them had an effect to some degree. The end point is that we lost and were a losing team, things in many areas were not good enough including areas Hurney was responsible for.

4. At first yes, but if you do a little reasearch, the later half of Hurney's career does not look so good as of now albeit there are still guys out there who we all expect to see more out of. I'd say he did an average job.

5. I don't think he did things against Foxs will, that would be giving Fox A LOT of power, he might as well do it himself at that point. I think the biggest failures of this franchise latley is a combination of the transition in coaching, a buisness first JR and and Marty who is too loyal and at times makes moves that seem inconsistant. I don't like Hurney doesn't get leverage in the draft. I didn't like how he ignored Peppers when he told them he wanted out. I think JR shares a lot of blame for the 10 season so I won't put too much on Hurney.

Problem with the Brown/Edwards trades are you know those picks had NO Fox influence. I think it was pretty obvious a couple of years before Fox left he was going to leave and I don't think he had a lot of influence of the picks.

6. Our worst season is most definetley on JR. Whether you want to try an 'understand' what he was doing from a buisness perspective or not, from a fan perspective and a perspective from someone that pays money for tickets every year to every game that is easily going to be my most negative memory about JR.

7. I don't care about his lack of free angecy unless it's a lack of will. Unless it's the fact he can't see his drafts are not working out. He holds on just a little bit too much. I wish he did more for the QB position, I am not going to say exactly how that is just trying to argue. QB, WR, Peppers, Delhomme extension, recent failure in draft picks and giving up of future picks (no leverage).

But I am a fan of Hurney in some ways as well. As I said he is average and isn't completeley useless. I like that his Oline is always decent or better. That is a must have. I like he pulled the trigger on Cam. Despite what others think, I love the fact we kep Dwill and don't mind his contract. Olsen trade was awesome.

I could name about the same good as bad for Hurney as of now.

If I can like him for all these things I can't just ignore some dumb stuff he did and say its all gravy. This is all my opinion too, some people think some of these things matter more than others. This is just my pserpective, a fan perspective. Right not he is average but he still has a lot of players and moves to make so I won't say I have given up on him. I watched him build his team and coaching, make his signings and now I am ready to see the 'second' final product.

[chef17]

In 2009 we went 8-8 not 7-9. Just want to point out that with his roster Fox was average at worst (I'm including 7-9 wins as average. Slightly below if you only what to include 8 wins). I had no problem with his leaving but it's funny how people act like he was the worst coach ever.

And half those questions won't prove whether or not Hurney sucks so I don't really see the point of this thread. For example #2. Most here hated Fox's coaching style so they wanted him gone. Has nothing with do with how good Hurney is. I don't think Hurney absolutely sucks just pointing that out.

[panther4life]

I'll play along I am sure this is directed towards me.

1. Why are you asking this? This thread is bait. You asked poeple who thinks Hurney sucks to reply, so you have alreaddy selected your audience with your own agenda. I still answer though becayse I rank him as average and wouldn't say he sucks overall. Hard to say really how do you rank a GM? Record? Players? An even mixture of them all or some more than others? All I can say is I think he is average.

2. I'd rather keep Hurney, if I had to choose but I have no idea how this is relevant or would ever be an alternatum, their jobs are extremeley different.

3. Each year has mutiple different, unique reasons we did not make the playoffs. It is impossible to decipher what impacts the player the most, player talent vs. coaching talent vs. scouting talent so spreading the blame or credit eveneley seems to be the best option. Is Beason the way he is as a player, or because of our coaching? If Luke doesn't turn out is it our coaching? If he does is it credited to Hurney? Or because he is just a beast in nature. That is a pointless argument you can have with anyone until you're numb; all of them had an effect to some degree. The end point is that we lost and were a losing team, things in many areas were not good enough including areas Hurney was responsible for.

4. At first yes, but if you do a little reasearch, the later half of Hurney's career does not look so good as of now albeit there are still guys out there who we all expect to see more out of. I'd say he did an average job.

5. I don't think he did things against Foxs will, that would be giving Fox A LOT of power, he might as well do it himself at that point. I think the biggest failures of this franchise latley is a combination of the transition in coaching, a buisness first JR and and Marty who is too loyal and at times makes moves that seem inconsistant. I don't like Hurney doesn't get leverage in the draft. I didn't like how he ignored Peppers when he told them he wanted out. I think JR shares a lot of blame for the 10 season so I won't put too much on Hurney.

Problem with the Brown/Edwards trades are you know those picks had NO Fox influence. I think it was pretty obvious a couple of years before Fox left he was going to leave and I don't think he had a lot of influence of the picks.

6. Our worst season is most definetley on JR. Whether you want to try an 'understand' what he was doing from a buisness perspective or not, from a fan perspective and a perspective from someone that pays money for tickets every year to every game that is easily going to be my most negative memory about JR.

7. I don't care about his lack of free angecy unless it's a lack of will. Unless it's the fact he can't see his drafts are not working out. He holds on just a little bit too much. I wish he did more for the QB position, I am not going to say exactly how that is just trying to argue. QB, WR, Peppers, Delhomme extension, recent failure in draft picks and giving up of future picks (no leverage).

But I am a fan of Hurney in some ways as well. As I said he is average and isn't completeley useless. I like that his Oline is always decent or better. That is a must have. I like he pulled the trigger on Cam. Despite what others think, I love the fact we kep Dwill and don't mind his contract. Olsen trade was awesome.

I could name about the same good as bad for Hurney as of now.

If I can like him for all these things I can't just ignore some dumb stuff he did and say its all gravy. This is all my opinion too, some people think some of these things matter more than others. This is just my pserpective, a fan perspective. Right not he is average but he still has a lot of players and moves to make so I won't say I have given up on him. I watched him build his team and coaching, make his signings and now I am ready to see the 'second' final product.

I didn't have your username in mind so it wasn't directed at you personally, I just wanted to spark some panther talk to help pass this boring time at work. Good reply post

[panther4life]

In 2009 we went 8-8 not 7-9. Just want to point out that with his roster Fox was average at worst. I had no problem with his leaving but it's funny how people act like he was the worst coach.

And half those questions won't prove whether or not Hurney sucks so I don't really see the point of this thread. For example #2. Most here hated Fox's coaching style so they wanted him gone. Has nothing with do with how good Hurney is. I don't think Hurney absolutely sucks just pointing that out.

Good call, my error on that. But I do think Fox sucked and make no bones about it. I appreciate what he did for the franchise but his playing not to lose philosophy and running draw plays on 3rd downs grew very tiresome and was ready to see him go.