Carolina Panthers Draft Brad Nortman, Punter, Wisconsin

[FirstRoundPick]

I don't know how the DT 's will pan out. Just that Rivera's track record of building defense is stellar. I have faith in his evaluation ability.

I don't want to go off on this tangent but this conversation has run its course.

A. Do you have any foul-proof documents/facts/proof that the relationship between Fox and Hurney, and Rivera and Hurney are any different. I see people shifting any blame off of Hurney and on to Fox, so it would be good to get some insight on that. I googled searched it but came up with nothing.

B. If the relationship is different, does it bother you that Hurney is only able to do his job because Rivera is standing next to him.

C. Not a question, but I think only so much can be pinned on Fox. It going to suck if 2013 people are saying damn you Fox.

[Real Emotional Trash]

A lot of pointless conjecture. Can't wait to see what happens, and as fans we can't really change the process or re-do the draft. Most evaluators are giving us grades of B to low As for the draft and that was without taking a DT or CB in the first four rounds.

[fieryprophet]

I don't want to go off on this tangent but this conversation has run its course.

A. Do you have any foul-proof documents/facts/proof that the relationship between Fox and Hurney, and Rivera and Hurney are any different. I see people shifting any blame off of Hurney and on to Fox, so it would be good to get some insight on that. I googled searched it but came up with nothing.

B. If the relationship is different, does it bother you that Hurney is only able to do his job because Rivera is standing next to him.

C. Not a question, but I think only so much can be pinned on Fox. It going to suck if 2013 people are saying damn you Fox.

A. You don't Google that kind of stuff, you know it by paying attention. When Fox was around he worked hand in hand with Hurney, and now that Ron is here they coordinate as well.

B. Hurney is a coach-friendly GM. He tries to find the best players that fit their schemes. Fox had a different mindset for his scheme than Rivera. It led to good players and bad ones. Hurney's best fit is as a cap manager and negotiator that picks the guys a good coach with an eye for talent wants. He now has that coach.

C. This is Rivera's club now. If things don't pan out it's on Ron.

Now get off your anti-Hurney kick and learn.

[Carl Spackler]

I don't know why you guys don't just listen to everything I say. After all, I played Madden against Bill Polian once. I'll prove it soon too.

:lol:

[Actionman0z]

Butler is better because people knew his name. This kid was much more consistant and kicked in an area with much worse conditions. We worked him out in 30 degree weather. He can drop kick, and pooch. He has over 30 touchbacks. Dont know if he can kickoff, but we like his consistant placement and hangtime allowing ST to get in rhythm.. no more long liners that outkick coverages.

[FirstRoundPick]

A. You don't Google that kind of stuff, you know it by paying attention. When Fox was around he worked hand in hand with Hurney, and now that Ron is here they coordinate as well.

B. Hurney is a coach-friendly GM. He tries to find the best players that fit their schemes. Fox had a different mindset for his scheme than Rivera. It led to good players and bad ones. Hurney's best fit is as a cap manager and negotiator that picks the guys a good coach with an eye for talent wants. He now has that coach.

C. This is Rivera's club now. If things don't pan out it's on Ron.

Now get off your anti-Hurney kick and learn.

A. Ok I am paying attention. Do you have any foul-proof documents/facts/proof/articles that show the relationship between Fox and Hurney, and Fox and Rivera? Isn't that really the same thing?

B. I guess the relationship is different , or you would not have answered this question. But you did not answer the question. You only said Hurney is a glorifed accountant. If a person can't answer a yes/no question with a yes/no, they are trying to bs you.

C. What purpose is Hurney serving then?

[FirstRoundPick]

I don't have a problem with Hurney at all. It isn't personal or anything. I have a problem with poorly built teams who lose. It just so happens that Hurney has built those teams. We lucked out big time on Cam. Good QB play hides a lot of issues. And to a lesser extent pass rush. But we don't need that because it isn't part of the scheme. It isn't like the Bears and Chargers had good pass rush.

[CarolinaCatBrigade]

@ FirstRoundPick

You're a complete moron if you know more about NFL talent than Rivera and Hurney. Shut up already.

[FirstRoundPick]

@ FirstRoundPick

You're a complete moron if you know more about NFL talent than Rivera and Hurney. Shut up already.

You wanna debate good. You wanna throw out insults great. Just don't think you are doing anything that hasn't been done 10 times already.

Your post comes off as I disagree with this guy he is a moron.

[CarolinaCatBrigade]

You wanna debate good. You wanna throw out insults great. Just don't think you are doing anything that hasn't been done 10 times already.

Your post comes off as I disagree with this guy he is a moron.

I'm glad you caught on

[ed bell]

I don't have a problem with Hurney at all. It isn't personal or anything. I have a problem with poorly built teams who lose. It just so happens that Hurney has built those teams. We lucked out big time on Cam. Good QB play hides a lot of issues. And to a lesser extent pass rush. But we don't need that because it isn't part of the scheme. It isn't like the Bears and Chargers had good pass rush.

From what I can gather after all the tangents here, you are lamenting the omission of DT from our off-season plans. You think the D-line is horrible and was a first need. That was countered by folks saying that Rivera is more than capable with evaluating his personnel and that he has crafted top notch defenses in two different schemes in very small windows. Those defenses had vast improvements under his oversight. He is now in charge of our situation and said earlier this year that he isn't concerned about adding to the DT position. That was verified by what we saw in the draft. There was a DE added who might turn out to be an impact player, but overall he is sticking with his statements. You don't seem to be satisfied with that, yet cannot back it up with showing examples of Rivera failing to field a quality Defense. I agree with you in not wanting a poorly built team. Only problem is I don't see Rivera making bad personnel moves even if he hasn't added to the DT position.

[FirstRoundPick]

From what I can gather after all the tangents here, you are lamenting the omission of DT from our off-season plans. You think the D-line is horrible and was a first need. That was countered by folks saying that Rivera is more than capable with evaluating his personnel and that he has crafted top notch defenses in two different schemes in very small windows. Those defenses had vast improvements under his oversight. He is now in charge of our situation and said earlier this year that he isn't concerned about adding to the DT position. That was verified by what we saw in the draft. There was a DE added who might turn out to be an impact player, but overall he is sticking with his statements. You don't seem to be satisfied with that, yet cannot back it up with showing examples of Rivera failing to field a quality Defense. I agree with you in not wanting a poorly built team. Only problem is I don't see Rivera making bad personnel moves even if he hasn't added to the DT position.

Good post. You did a good job summing up how I mostly feel. I did like the Alexander pick up, but not the lose of the future 3rd. I'm not willing to get down on it to much because I feel we can't have too many pass rushers. And if he becomes one, great. If he doesn't fine, but at least the the team is being built the right way. The right way to build a team is though Elite QB, and Elite Pass Rush. I've said that at least five times this week and no one has even attempted to dispute me on this a little, so I think most everyone agrees with that on some level.

Now several posters say we will have success because Rivera has had success in two other places. That is pretty logical, but it is also true of all coaches to have had success elsewhere. They say he didn't have DT's at his other stops which isn't true because he had more than adequate DT's and more importantly a good pass rush. So what this particular tangent comes down to is they have more faith in Rivera having a good defense than I have faith in the ability to generate a pass rush without a good D-line.

[ed bell]

We lucked out big time on Cam.

Everything I've read says that this is exactly what "we" didn't do...The Cam pick was a product of the staff doing it's homework and fully evaluating Cam without buying into all of the BS floating around. They took the chance, but characterizing it as "lucked out big time" seems to be a way of withholding praise for our staff for basically pulling the trigger on a player that could transform the franchise in the face of a large volume of criticism and opinions to the contrary. They said they felt fully confident with the pick, and it panned out. The "luck" wasn't something they received, it's something everyone else who considers themselves a fan and hated the pick received.

[FirstRoundPick]

Everything I've read says that this is exactly what "we" didn't do...The Cam pick was a product of the staff doing it's homework and fully evaluating Cam without buying into all of the BS floating around. They took the chance, but characterizing it as "lucked out big time" seems to be a way of withholding praise for our staff for basically pulling the trigger on a player that could transform the franchise in the face of a large volume of criticism and opinions to the contrary. They said they felt fully confident with the pick, and it panned out. The "luck" wasn't something they received, it's something everyone else who considers themselves a fan and hated the pick received.

What I mean by lucked out was that we got a QB of Cam quality, a QB that hides a lot of issues we have by keeping us in games and giving us a chance to win. I loved the pick for the record. Anytime you get Elite QB play, you have a chance to win. I had the user name Punisher, and the biggest point I pushed for Cam was QB's dont have the same learning curve that they use too. I'm willing to admit the Newton pick was a gamble, but I knew it was one that had to be made. Please don't think of me as a guy who didn't want Newton. They were annoying to me.