Of These 4 Draft Prospects Who Is Your Favorite?

[bleys]

Love Hardy, but he has to step up, or be replaced.

Even if he stepped up, Johnson, Hardy, and Coples would give the Panthers a lot of pass rush with a lot of defensive flexibility.

Agreed.. and hell, every position better step up or they'll be replaced..

[koolkatluke]

1. Floyd

2. Cox

3. Couples

4. Gilmore

I'm not a fan of Gilmore and it seems like Hurney and Co. are looking for an immediate impact player. Couples is talented and will bring us a pass rusher if drafted, but I'm not a fan of him nor a DE at 9. Cox has emerged as the top DT and would be a tackle that would fit our scheme versus a NT or hybrid DE/DT. I wouldn't be mad if we take Cox and it's really close between he and Floyd for me. I know we have Smitty and 2 young WR's, but Floyd has a "it factor" about him that I like more than Blackmon. I think Gettis and Lafell are good compliments, but I think Floyd can be a Fitzgerald-type of #1 WR to pair with Cam. Honestly, it's more like 1A and 1B, because I like both of Floyd and Cox for different reasons.

Floyd won't be anything but a above avg. #2 wr.

[Guest Bwood]

Floyd won't be anything but a above avg. #2 wr.

Disagree. Michael Floyd will be a star #1 receiver in this league.

[panthers55]

Since 2008...

No DL not named Suh posted 10+ sacks in their 1st season..

No DL not named JPP posted 10+ sacks in their 2nd season.. (Carlos Dunlap only other with 9.5)

No DL not named Mario Williams ever posted 10+ sacks in their 3rd season...

Only 6 DL have posted 9+ sacks in their 4th season...

Hardy gave us 50 combined tackles (3rd most for sophmores) and 38 solo (2nd for sophmores), 17 QB pressures, 4 sacks, 11 passes defended, 1 FF..

I do agree.. Hardy needs to be more consistent and learn how to finish plays, but I find it extremely hard to believe people aren't excited for this kid's future and believe he's a lackluster pass rusher...

But then again, there are fools out there who think Fua and McClain are washed up after their 1st year as 3rd round DTs... I guess in the end this should be expected..

First you only went back to 2008. There were plenty over the years with 10 or more. Plus you mentioned 10 as if we expected Hardy to get 10 his rookie year. We discussed 10 as a goal his second year and frankly Hardy hasn't had 10 in his career. He had 3 his rookie year and 4 his second year. He only has 7 for his career.

But lets look at just 2011. There were 3 rookie linemen who had 7 or more sacks this year and 7 rookie D linemen with 5 or more. A total of 9 rookie d linemen had as many or more sacks as Hardy did this year.

You know how many D linemen in 2011 had more than 4 sacks in their second season??? There were 5. So combined there were 12 D linemen who in 2011 were in their first or second season and had more sacks than Hardy.

Again I like Hardy and hope he can get things back on track but lets not act as if he is a pass rusher yet. Another reason I hope we draft Coples.

[koolkatluke]

Disagree. Michael Floyd will be a star #1 receiver in this league.

We'll see.

[bleys]

First you only went back to 2008. There were plenty over the years with 10 or more. Plus you mentioned 10 as if we expected Hardy to get 10 his rookie year. We discussed 10 as a goal his second year and frankly Hardy hasn't had 10 in his career. He had 3 his rookie year and 4 his second year. He only has 7 for his career.

But lets look at just 2011. There were 3 rookie linemen who had 7 or more sacks this year and 7 rookie D linemen with 5 or more. A total of 9 rookie d linemen had as many or more sacks as Hardy did this year.

You know how many D linemen in 2011 had more than 4 sacks in their second season??? There were 5. So combined there were 12 D linemen who in 2011 were in their first or second season and had more sacks than Hardy.

Again I like Hardy and hope he can get things back on track but lets not act as if he is a pass rusher yet. Another reason I hope we draft Coples.

I went back to 2008 because I have other things to do (like sleep, eventually)... It's the NFL's most recent history, you can go ahead and add 4 more guys to that total if you wish by going back a few more years, but I feel like the trend should tell a similar story.. I think going back 20 years is a bit much though.

Keep in mind I did not discriminate a players early draft status to a guy who was drafted in the 6th round but hope his overall game play tells a bigger story with passes defended, QB pressures, and overall tackles than bickering over guys who had 1 or 2 more sacks over Hardy but less of a presence...

So since people have been going around saying a DE should have proven himself by his 2nd year despite what the last 4 years have told us I want to adopt your 10 sack rule to qualify as "very good" game play to prove my point.... The rest of his #'s tell me he was above average for us last year and is most likely why we both agree we like him.

My post made a simple point.. since 2008, few players from year 1 to year 4 have posted more than 10 sacks...

To broaden that point ever so slightly, I reformed the "10+ sacks" to "9+" sacks in a players 4th year, which still only comes out to 6 guys total since 2008.. I know, 1 sack isn't much, but it takes that 6 down to a 3 if I'm so strict about it..

Despite people claiming how desperate we need to upgrade DE and that Hardy should have proven himself after "a few years of opportunity" (smokescreen for 1 year as a starter), I guess it's not likely to expect incredible sack #'s from Hardy or anyone we draft until at least year 4, unless we draft the exception to the rule..

[x djdrew x]

for all the people who want coples, can someone direct me to a vid of why this guy is so can't miss? i've watched several on youtube and i can't help but feel completely underwhelmed. I think the only players I would be disappointed in drafting at 9 would be Poe and Coples.

Please help me, trying to understand.....lol

[panthers55]

I went back to 2008 because I have other things to do (like sleep, eventually)... It's the NFL's most recent history, you can go ahead and add 4 more guys to that total if you wish by going back a few more years, but I feel like the trend should tell a similar story.. I think going back 20 years is a bit much though.

Keep in mind I did not discriminate a players early draft status to a guy who was drafted in the 6th round but hope his overall game play tells a bigger story with passes defended, QB pressures, and overall tackles than bickering over guys who had 1 or 2 more sacks over Hardy but less of a presence...

So since people have been going around saying a DE should have proven himself by his 2nd year despite what the last 4 years have told us I want to adopt your 10 sack rule to qualify as "very good" game play to prove my point.... The rest of his #'s tell me he was above average for us last year and is most likely why we both agree we like him.

My post made a simple point.. since 2008, few players from year 1 to year 4 have posted more than 10 sacks...

To broaden that point ever so slightly, I reformed the "10+ sacks" to "9+" sacks in a players 4th year, which still only comes out to 6 guys total since 2008.. I know, 1 sack isn't much, but it takes that 6 down to a 3 if I'm so strict about it..

Despite people claiming how desperate we need to upgrade DE and that Hardy should have proven himself after "a few years of opportunity" (smokescreen for 1 year as a starter), I guess it's not likely to expect incredible sack #'s from Hardy or anyone we draft until at least year 4, unless we draft the exception to the rule..

Looking at 10 sacks as the minimum standard or only looking at 4 year starters gives you a very narrow and skewed look. I threw that out there as a goal and point of argument for those saying he had a very good year not a minimum standard to be good. Why didn't you address the elephant in the room that there were were 12 rookie defensive linemen with four or more sacks last year and many of them didn't start. For that matter, Keiser came in on week 10, played a rotational role and had 4 sacks. He had more of an impact in the pass rush game given his limited time than Hardy did.

I think the issue here is that Rivera wants a pass rush and that is my knock on Hardy. It isn't that he can't tackle or play the edge, it is that he hasn't been effective getting to the quarterback. I am not saying that Hardy needs to be released or that we shouldn't give him time to develop but rather that we need to improve the pass rush by bringing in another DE in the first who can get to the quarterback. 50 tackles a season translates to 3 tackles a game. If that is all you can do then I don't want you starting on my team. I wasn't talking about simply tackles but about improving the pass rush.

My case isn't really against Hardy so much as for another edge rusher who can bolster our pass rush. I surely hope that Hardy improves and think competition at the position may help him improve. But anyone who thinks that Hardy had a good season rushing the passer needs to up their standards. So answer the question. If 12 rookie defensive linemen had 4 sacks or more in 2011 with 7 of them having 5 or more and 3 having 7 or more, why would we not bring in a DE for competition. Hardy has not generated the pass rush we wanted or thought we would get when we drafted him. It is time to bring in someone else for competition.

Address my point before you go back to the spurious argument of 10 sacks which was thrown out there for the sake of an argument and not a minimum standard as you have glummed on to it. Instead of responding with more esoteric stats just answer these two questions?

Do you think Hardy is a good pass rusher?

Do we need to bring in another pass rusher??

[panthers55]

for all the people who want coples, can someone direct me to a vid of why this guy is so can't miss? i've watched several on youtube and i can't help but feel completely underwhelmed. I think the only players I would be disappointed in drafting at 9 would be Poe and Coples.

Please help me, trying to understand.....lol

To get an idea of his potential watch his main body of work which is last year and this year. If you do you will see a guy with lots of potential who has the size and quickness and athleticism to play DE. Watch the senior bowl as well. He was reported to be the best defensive linemen there. He had 19 sacks his junior and senior year which is not too shabby.

[bleys]

My case isn't really against Hardy so much as for another edge rusher who can bolster our pass rush.

Address my point before you go back to the spurious argument of 10 sacks which was thrown out there for the sake of an argument and not a minimum standard as you have glummed on to it. Instead of responding with more esoteric stats just answer these two questions?

Do you think Hardy is a good pass rusher?

Do we need to bring in another pass rusher??

I think leading the league with 11 passes defended, 17 QB pressures, and 4 sacks confirms what I saw last year: that he has things to work on but was also a nice asset thanks to drafting well and has a bright future with this team..

I have said many times I agree bringing in Coples would be a good idea... should he be legit, I'll let the coaches determine that... If so, Coples likely has a much higher ceiling than Hardy given where they both are/were picked..

Here have been my statements in this thread....

Hardy gave us 50 combined tackles (3rd most for sophmores) and 38 solo (2nd for sophmores), 17 QB pressures, 4 sacks, 11 passes defended, 1 FF..

I do agree.. Hardy needs to be more consistent and learn how to finish plays, but I find it extremely hard to believe people aren't excited for this kid's future and believe he's a lackluster pass rusher...

So I'm not sure where it is this miscommunication is coming from except for what I'm going to lay out below...

He had 2 years to start. Read kats argument above about DTs and DEs who come in and start right away. If Hardy didn't do that, it was his issue. He was facing Brayton and Brown for time, both guys that Rivera didn't even keep when he got here.

Now we’ve had many conversations with people who have said this very thing and you’ve argued the very opposite of this stance you are taking now.. And yet now you think a 6^th rounder should have had the technique to start in his 1st year and have proven himself?

I am fine with Hardy staying and improving and really don't think it has to be Coples or Hardy, it can be both. But Hardy has had 2 full years to develop and really hasn't. Maybe bringing in some competition will light a fire and bring out his best. That is what competition is supposed to do.

He hasn’t? The dude lead the league in batted passes (11), had 17 QB pressures, and 4 sacks.. Now considering he’s a 6^th round pick, we know for a fact without knowing the guy’s name, it’s going to take time for him to learn not to over run QBs (and improve his technique to get by defenders) which our DTs did a great job of allowing since the QB could step up into the pocket… I'm just surprised this is your stance right now, all things considered..

I wasn't talking about simply tackles but about improving the pass rush.

But you did...

50 tackles a season translates to 3 tackles a game. If that is all you can do then I don't want you starting on my team.

A 6th rounder is Top 3 in his class in tackles.. Top 2 in his class in solo tackles..

Everything else is baffling to me, I mean, leading the league in passes batted down has to tell you something outside of the 4 sacks he had... He isn't 20 yards away from the QB knocking down the football so he must be pretty decent at pass rushing... But the point being told by you comes across to me like you think he should be a solid 4 year vet because he's had 2 full years to develop while ignoring the growth that obviously has occurred with other variables that say he was pretty solid...

[pantherclaw]

I don't get caught up with where the guy was drafted. It means nothing once he's on the team.

If Hardy had stayed in school another year, he was projecting to be a first round pick.

Regardless of that. His first year he showed flashes as a situational pass rusher, and special teams stand out.

His play impressed me well enough, that I raised my expectations of him.

While he didn't play bad enough for me to give up on him, he didn't play well enough to remain the starter. Which means competition should be brought in.

That doesn't mean I've given up on him.

He has the talent to be a starter, but has a lot to improve upon.

I'm with P55 on the opinion, that we should be expecting 8 to 10 sacks, and much better run defense out our starting right end.

[La Pantera]

I wish someone would compare CJ and Hardys stats at the two year mark. Though it may be squed because Hardy got more PT in his second year compared to CJ. May have to compare amount of snaps taken.

[koolkatluke]

I can't judge Hardy playing with 2 rookies beside him. I honestly can't expect a 1st year starter to look good with 2 rookies beside him.him.

[La Pantera]

Oh and as far as batted pass and sacks go, the end result is the same. You've prevented the QB from completing a pass. The only real difference is with a sack you got to hit him and hopefully resulting in a significant loss of yards.