Mayock Torches Coples

[DaCityKats]

he will have 200 tackles but the rushing yards avg will be 6 yards per carry.

[panthers55]

College production translate to nfl production.

See recent first linebackers drafted overall Keith rivers and Aaron curry.

Yeah see Patrick Willis and Von Miller who were good in college and better in the NFL.

Pointing out the busts is the same thing people did with Newton when they brought up Russell or Vince Young. We have seen this before.

Same old, same old.................

[panthers55]

College production for linebackers is like thr least predictive thing ever and its telling that's all p55 has to hang his hat on.

So when a guy has great measurables and poor game film we say he is a workout wonder.

When a guy has great game film and poor measurables we say he was in a great scheme and won't translate to the NFL.

When we have a guy who has great measurables and fantastic production and game film, we have guys like Fiz who points out one prior bust and tries to belittle it.

Okay Einstein, if college production doesn't matter and measurables don't count, what exactly do you use to decide who is going to be a good pro-player???

Flip a coin??? Put every one'e name in a hat and pick them randomly.

Seriously????? So do you make up this stuff or does someone write it for you like when you act???

[panthers55]

he will have 200 tackles but the rushing yards avg will be 6 yards per carry.

Considering we did better than that last year what will be weaker, it won't be the linebackers...........

[Fiz]

So when a guy has great measurables and poor game film we say he is a workout wonder.

When a guy has great game film and poor measurables we say he was in a great scheme and won't translate to the NFL.

When we have a guy who has great measurables and fantastic production and game film, we have guys like Fiz who points out one prior bust and tries to belittle it.

I've not said that at all.

I'm simply pointing out your prior arguments in favor of him rest solely on his college production and award shared by the likes of Glenn Dorsey and Derrick Strait. There are positions in the NFL which have direct correlations between College Production and what they do in the pros. Linebacker isn't one of them.

Okay Einstein, if college production doesn't matter and measurables don't count, what exactly do you use to decide who is going to be a good pro-player???

Flip a coin??? Put every one'e name in a hat and pick them randomly

In the current NFL linebacker production is based more on scheme than in any single position, and the position is quickly being relegated to the least important, regardless of base alignment.

Currently on another board we're going through draft position and seeing their average production to figure out where teams should draft who. Basically right now it's QB and CB are the positions you draft in the first but that's irrelevant.

We haven't gotten to linebackers yet and there's a reason for that. Teams don't value the position anymore and that's evident by drafting trends over the last decade or so.

Looking at draft stats #7 The Hogs

Defensive Ends

Wide Receivers

centers

Running Backs

Defensive Backs

Defensive Tackles & Quarterbacks

Tackles!

From the 2000-2007 drafts:

[pre]

Years starter | Game appearances Pro bowler All Pros

# Drafted 5+ 4 3 2 1 0 | >50 15-50 1-14 0

rnd 1 21 16 2 2 0 1 0 | 20 1 0 0 8 3

rnd 2 19 13 1 0 3 0 2 | 14 4 1 0 6 2

rnd 3 24 10 2 2 0 5 5 | 17 3 3 1 1 0

rnd 4 22 5 0 2 3 3 9 | 9 6 3 4 2 1

rnd 5 19 0 1 0 3 2 13 | 7 5 3 4 0 0

rnd 6 30 0 2 0 1 5 22 | 6 10 2 11 0 0

rnd 7 26 2 1 0 1 3 19 | 5 6 6 8 0 0

[/pre]

So here's the first spot where you can find plenty of starters as deep as round 3. Lots of right tackles in that mix, but half the guys drafted have been at least 4 year starters.

Guards!

From the 2000-2007 drafts:

[pre]

Years starter | Game appearances Pro bowler All Pros

# Drafted 5+ 4 3 2 1 0 | >50 15-50 1-14 0

rnd 1 6 5 1 0 0 0 0 | 6 0 0 0 4 3

rnd 2 17 9 2 1 2 1 2 | 13 3 1 0 3 1

rnd 3 11 4 0 2 1 2 2 | 8 2 1 0 0 0

rnd 4 20 3 2 1 1 7 6 | 7 9 1 2 0 0

rnd 5 19 5 1 1 1 2 9 | 9 3 4 3 2 0

rnd 6 16 3 1 1 1 1 9 | 6 1 6 3 0 0

rnd 7 32 4 0 1 0 7 20 | 7 9 7 9 1 0

[/pre]

And a position with really limited bodies at the top, and plenty of starters throughout, albeit with way worse long term hit rates as you drop down the draft.

Yeah see Patrick Willis and Von Miller who were good in college and better in the NFL.

Pointing out the busts is the same thing people did with Newton when they brought up Russell or Vince Young. We have seen this before.

Same old, same old.................

Patrick Willis and Von Miller were both physically superior candidates who produced in better conferences. Willis dominated the SEC and everyone knew he was going to be a stud from day one. Less so with Von Miller but he was lucky enough to go to a defensive genius who knew how to use him. Also it should be pointed out that Willis' position in San Fran wouldn't resemble what Kuechly would do in Carolina regardless of position, and Von Miller actually plays with his hand on the ground in the joker position in a lot of passing situations.

Russell and Young aren't fair comparisons to Cam and you're arguing in bad faith yet again. Russell was maybe the most physically dominant specimen to ever play quarterback who didn't do that much at LSU and had people screaming for him to get benched from day one. He didn't have the work ethic and made Cam's manufactured problems look like nothing. Vince Young cannot throw a football and got by on being faster than everyone else.

[panthers55]

I've not said that at all.

I'm simply pointing out your prior arguments in favor of him rest solely on his college production and award shared by the likes of Glenn Dorsey and Derrick Strait. There are positions in the NFL which have direct correlations between College Production and what they do in the pros. Linebacker isn't one of them.

My arguments are that he is a physically gifted athlete that outproduced every other linebacker in the history of the game through his junior year. There is not one single player with better production including Willis and Von Miller. And it just wasn't tackles.Look at passes defended or interceptions for example. The only area he lacked was sacks because they didn't use him for that.

In the current NFL linebacker production is based more on scheme than in any single position, and the position is quickly being relegated to the least important, regardless of base alignment.

That is not true across the board. And not all schemes see the linebacker equally. For example 3-4 schemes value the linebacker position very highly just behind NT.

Currently on another board we're going through draft position and seeing their average production to figure out where teams should draft who. Basically right now it's QB and CB are the positions you draft in the first but that's irrelevant.

We haven't gotten to linebackers yet and there's a reason for that. Teams don't value the position anymore and that's evident by drafting trends over the past several years.

i don't know that your experience drafting in a fantasy league or amateur hour on another message board relates any better to the NFL than playing Madden translates to playing the game. But think what you want.

[

Patrick Willis and Von Miller were both physically superior candidates who produced in better conferences. Willis dominated the SEC and everyone knew he was going to be a stud from day one. Less so with Von Miller but he was lucky enough to go to a defensive genius who knew how to use him. Also it should be pointed out that Willis' position in San Fran wouldn't resemble what Kuechly would do in Carolina regardless of position, and Von Miller actually plays with his hand on the ground in the joker position in a lot of passing situations.

That is where you are wrong. Neither Willis or Von Miller are better athletes or more gifted than Kuechly. Their production wasn't close and there measurables at the combine were very similar. Being the only good players on your team is just as difficult as being a good player on a great team. Willis and Von Miller played with better talent around them which helped them as well.

As for how he will play in Carolina that is still to be determined. If he plays Davis' position he will be in the Sam Position not the Mike unless Beason struggles to return to form. If he plays Mike it will be very similar to ILB in a 3-4. Von Miller was primarily upright not in a 3 point stance when I saw him last year. He played both the jack position in 2009 in a 4-3 and the joker position in a 3-4 in 2010 while in college.

Russell and Young aren't fair comparisons to Cam and you're arguing in bad faith yet again. Russell was maybe the most physically dominant specimen to ever play quarterback who didn't do that much at LSU and had people screaming for him to get benched from day one. He didn't have the work ethic and made Cam's manufactured problems look like nothing. Vince Young cannot throw a football and got by on being faster than everyone else.

Not true at all. Russell and Vince Young both were considered can't miss prospects, Young was second in Heisman voting to Bush and won a national championship. Russell was 21-4 as a starter and while he didn't win a national championship he did lead his team to a Sugar Bowl win in 2007 before deciding for the draft early. He was considered a rare combination of size and arm strength just like Newton. Your characterization of Russell as doing nothing is what is disingenuous.

[jarhead]

I completely understand someone not wanting to take Luke or a lb with our first pick but to compare him to Curry was like the group that tried to compare Cam to Vince Young.Two different players with two different mind sets.

[jarhead]

Mayock really is on game tape heavy and Coples last year game tape wasn't good.

He is not the only analyst that has him falling Scott Wright has him falling to the late 1st

[mmmbeans]

I think the guy will be a very good player. He's probably the best coverage lb to come out since beason. I just dont want him in the top 10.

[jarhead]

I think the guy will be a very good player. He's probably the best coverage lb to come out since beason. I just dont want him in the top 10.

And that I can understand that but to predict him to bust or to compare him to Curry is being a jerk considering his accomplishments

[CRA]

College production translate to nfl production.

See recent first linebackers drafted overall Keith rivers and Aaron curry.

And how many examples are there showing college production is a key indicator of potential NFL success?

I mean you can only keep going back to the Aaron Curry well so many times....

Pretty sure Cam Newton's college production played a key role in the Panthers drafting him

[Mage]

Why shouldn't he do his homework? After all this is what he gets paid for.

What are you talking about? It's not about doing their homework. Analysts aren't usually given opportunity to talk to players as long as NFL teams are. What do you expect Mayock to learn about Cam in five minutes? Unless they knew each other personally or Newton was willing, Mayock didn't have much of a chance to meet Cam.

It wasn't about talking to his coaches or anything. He said that if he was positive Newton would commit to being the best, he'd take him number one overall. Even if you want to blame him for not "doing his homework," that alone tells you he felt Newton was the better player. Just wasn't sure if he was better mentally.