I dont see the Hurney magic

[bleys]

I get you need a GM and coaching working well together....however, you can't have a GM tell a coach whatever you want....when the owner has said to Fox win or be fired. Big picture for the GM can still be looked at.

Telling Fox Peppers is an issue isn't exactly saying F u. You can also play your 2.5 sack stat at that. He doesn't want to be here, production is going down....let's get you and us some talent w/ his value.

let's get value: 3rd at best

draft early talent: EB traded up for and released later

take away: 14.5 sacks from our defense

keep: Fox's job via back to back winning seasons

while handcuffing: your entire defense

and

win back to back seasons and make the playoffs, starting NOW...

somehow I'm not buying you would just let Peppers walk if you believed in your coach....

[CRA]

Thaqt wasn't the question. When we picked up Edwards and Shockey and drafted Olsen, were they scrubs and castaways as alleged. A GM can't prevent a player from getting hurt plus you have to have the short term fixes as well as long term gems. Don't use revisionist history but look at what Hurney did in free agency and the draft last year. He fixed the offense. This year he will fix the defense the same way.

I guess it depends on what people define a castaway as...

well to be fair, Shockey probably was close to being a castaway. He probably will play here for cheap if we want b/c there aren't many teams that are looking for what he is.

Yes, Shockey was productive but a lot of that was simply b/c he was a vet.....in a VERY TE friendly system where defenders had a lot of other players to worry about.

Shockey was a great fit. I think Derrick Anderson is UTTER POO yet at the same time a GREAT fit for what we needed last year.

also, Rivera IMO fixed the offense. Not Hurney. Chud was Rivera's guy. Cam was Rivera's guy. Could of inserted plenty of people into Shockey's role IMO (but again, we have had this conversation before).

[frash.exe]

What is it about hurney threads that just bring the worst out of every poster

[Ken]

Waaaayyyy too early to expect any moves in FA. Pretty sure they are going to come. My only concern we get good players that fit system and for the right amount and not average players who won't help much.

[Mvp2014]

Actually the Wharton cutting won't affect the cap until June 1, so we are under the cap now without that 5.7 million being added in. That will give us room down the road to pick up guys once cuts start being made. But we still have guys who can be restructured or extended to gain more cap space. I know little about it but we can save another 4 million by converting Godfrey's option bonus into a signing bonus. We could extend Smith and save another 4-5 million this year. So by my calculations we could be another 8-million under if we chose to exercise those deals which could grow to 13-14 million once June 2nd comes around.

The first game isn't until September so there is plenty of time to play this out. And for those thinking that all the good ones are going to be gone in a week or two. There are literally hundreds of free agents on the market today with another hundred being cut once the 200 guys who are drafted get factored in. As times goes on and players fear not playing at all this year, prices will plummet using the old supply and demand theory of business.

As for Davis, since when was star money 700,000 for a linebacker. That looks like vet minimum to me.

i agree things can still be done capwise, I just disagree with some of our decisions. Without some boneheaded moves we could bring in a very good FA and not the leftovers.

I thought Davis got a $7 million roster bonus and $2.4 mil cap hit last year. not sure about this year.

[CRA]

let's get value: 3rd at best

draft early talent: EB traded up for and released later

take away: 14.5 sacks from our defense

keep: Fox's job via back to back winning seasons

while handcuffing: your entire defense

and

win back to back seasons and make the playoffs, starting NOW...

somehow I'm not buying Fox would be on board and Hurney was going to say, what exactly? "I'm not saying F' off, but Pep just put up 14.5 sacks and we are going to trade him despite your inability to coach up talent..."

hindsight.. I agree with you. But if you or I were in that situation, I have no doubt we would have done the same thing... because in the heat of all that, you have to keep Peppers one more year and a 3rd rounder isn't worth the sacks and overall DE your defense needs to stay competitive...

I will counter with this.....maybe Hurney makes that call and trades Pepper instead of tagging. Not to F Fox over but b/c it made sense long term.

Now, stubborn Fox is forced to insert Charles Johnson into a bigger role one year sooner. How do we know Charles Johnson doesn't break out that season instead of one year later? Personally, I think the biggest change for Johnson was just opportunity.

[Snake]

The only thing I didnt agree with Hurney on was the Delhomme Contract and Paying Dwill so much. Still at the time Im sure he didnt know Cam would be lights out and we would pass way more then run.

[R0CKnR0LLA]

The only thing I didnt agree with Hurney on was the Delhomme Contract and Paying Dwill so much. Still at the time Im sure he didnt know Cam would be lights out and we would pass way more then run.

if hurney makes the best move possible his entire time here as GM except for these two examples then we'd be stacking lombardi trophies left and right

[panthers55]

never did i call shockey a srub or castaway. olsen wasn't a FA pickup by the way.

what I said is that we GENERALLY don't get the 2nd or 3rd tier value FAs, but the bottom of the barrel guys and the fact that you can only bring up who you have just proves my point. you even said yourself just a few minutes ago in this same thread "In 2008 we shifted gears and went the whole add journeymen and reasonably cheap players. That is what we have done ever since. "

There is no doubt we bring in guys with an injury history or those who may have underperformed due to being in the wrong scheme or whatever. I am just saying they aren't all scrubs or castaways. Reasonably priced free agents and journeymen represent guys who aren't in high demand and can't make the big bucks but aren't scrubs. Tyler Brayton and Damione Lewis were 2 guys for example who we picked up relatively cheaply who were former first rounders but underperformmed for that high of a draft pick. It didn't mean they weren't a good pickup for us.

Since they were going to be free agents last year if we didn't sign them, would you call Charles Johnson and Williams not first tier free agents?? Or since they were our own they don't count...........

[bleys]

I will counter with this.....maybe Hurney makes that call and trades Pepper instead of tagging. Not to F Fox over but b/c it made sense long term.

Now, stubborn Fox is forced to insert Charles Johnson into a bigger role one year sooner. How do we know Charles Johnson doesn't break out that season instead of one year later? Personally, I think the biggest change for Johnson was just opportunity.

let's say opportunity was the case, then why wouldn't you start CJ in place of Brayton? Long term, there was hope Peppers would stay, hence why we made a final contract offer after 2009..

but you'd have to play through 2009 to find that out, which I believe was the final straw for Pep.. all we can do is speculate..

I don't think we can assume JR was the only one letting Fox make his bed through 2008 and 2009.. and I don't think Hurney could have used hindsight when other possibilities were very real at the time..

[Chimera]

2003 was not the last time we signed a bunch of free agents. But 2003 was one of the last years that our free agents really excelled above their value. In 2003 we got a Stephen Davis comin off injury, Ricky Proehl who was considered over the hill, and a career backup in Jake Delhomme. We also added Bryszinski, Favors and Dyson. Who???

In 2005 we spent as much adding Lucas as we did everyone in 2003. Then we made a big splash in 2006 adding Maake Kemoeatu, Keith Adams, Justin Hartwig, Damione Lewis, Shaun Williams and Kevin McCadam.

The difference? In 2003 all those guys had monster seasons. In 2006, those guys cost tons more and performed okay. We tried again in 2007 with David Carr.

In 2008 we shifted gears and went the whole add journeymen and reasonably cheap players. That is what we have done ever since.

You left off the cancer of 2006. Some guy named Keyshawn Johnson.

[panthers55]

i agree things can still be done capwise, I just disagree with some of our decisions. Without some boneheaded moves we could bring in a very good FA and not the leftovers.

I thought Davis got a $7 million roster bonus and $2.4 mil cap hit last year. not sure about this year.

He got a 7 million dollar signing bonus and a 1 million dollar salary last year so the cap hit over the 5 years of the contract equated to 1.4 million a year hence his cap hit of 2.4 million in 2011. His salary is 700000 this year so if you add the 1.4 cap hit his total cap hit this year is 2.1.

[jtnc]

Letting Applewhite go was another dumb move. The guy plays hard, and a pass-rusher we needed.

[Chimera]

I really liked the Shockey signing, we need to do more like that. Like half the team every year is late round rookies, UDFAs and waiver wire pickups. No way we should have gone into the season with Munnerlyn as our #2. Or no real backup plan for when TD surely blows out another ACL. And several other examples and that's talking about starters, it's no surprise why our depth (AKA STs) blows every year.

look at all the needs we have now. we need like 5-6 starters and we only have 2 early draft picks.

Didn't we begin the regular season with a ridiculous 8 LBers on the roster? Injuries really took their toll on this team. If we had unlimited roster space, you'd have a point. But we can't realistically have a starter, a back-up, an insurance policy, and a band-aid at every position.