I dont see the Hurney magic

[XClown1986]

We didn't lose anything by giving Davis that contract and it was understood he would retool that contract if he missed the season, saving us 8mil and saving us cap room.. Now whether you would gamble on <1 mil this upcoming year is another issue.. I think it's worth a shot.

Peppers had no trade value after the 2007 season. Who was going to give us more than a bag of chips for a DE that posted 2.5 sacks and surrounded in speculation that he had a serious health issue? He came back with 14.5 after we slapped the tag on him... by that time, every fan forgets why Hurney's trades started happening: John Fox was about to get kicked the f**k out if he didn't have back to back winning seasons and make the playoffs.. There is no way we were about to trade him in '09 without a pass rush.. CJ was still developing and EB never panned out. And Fox has never been known to coach up players.. Right up until the end, we offered to pay him top defensive player money.. I believe there was a limit on number of years you can tag a player so we couldn't do a tag and trade in 2010..

Deangelo, I agree with.. we shouldn't have signed him to that contract, especially after Goodson proved to be the playmaker he is, minus the fumble issues.. I would hope since AP and Tiki Barber learned how to fix that issue, there was still hope with Goody..

Will Witherspoon was offered a reasonable contract by us and proved he wasn't worth a big contract to play MLB.. Maybe Hurney saw a different writing on the wall than you.. and IIRC, Witherspoon didn't exactly stick around to work out a deal, a la Moose to Chicago.. Outside of Will quickly leaving, Dan Morgan was worth the gamble by how his contract was setup, which was very similar to TD's contract: incentive based..

I do think Hurney gets caught up in player loyalty, but I think it's not as cut and dry as you stated..

Fair points on Davis and Peppers. I never really suggested trading Peppers, moreso suggesting we let him walk sooner if the front office saw the contract dispute to keep him here (he didn't want to be here) being a major issue. I understand, we had to have win back-to-back seasons, but the money saved from franchising him could have gotten us a replacement, or we could have traded for someone, or drafted accordingly, etc.

No major financial loss on Davis, so I understand keeping him, but the original numbers were head scratching.

I don't agree on the Witherspoon and Morgan situation. From what I understood, they put both offers on the table and said the first one that accepts, stays because they couldn't keep them both. Morgan would have to be an idiot not to sign it. Witherspoon was never going to play MLB. We would have needed a new MLB but Spoon wouldn't have played there except in a pinch. I have no doubt that Spoon wanted to get paid, but we could have upped our offer to Spoon and either franchised Morgan or signed him to a smaller 1 year prove-it deal. IMO, that situation was mishandled because they were so in awe of Morgan's ability that he was only able to put on the field half of the season, if that.

[megadeth078]

The same people that bitch about Hurney not overpaying players during the Free Agency frenzy are the same people that create threads hoping they can convince Hurney (somehow) to sign washed up players that have recently been cut because they have a good rating on their latest version of Madden (which is probably outdated). Trying to build a team completely through FA is a recipe for having a team that is overrated, old, and expensive. FA should be for patching a hole here or there and for adding depth, not for creating a team. I'm much more comfortable with the team trying to build through the draft. Either option can be considered a risk, if you will, but I'd rather have a bad team that is cheap and young, than a bad team that is expensive and old.

[XClown1986]

Davis's contract was strucutred perfectly and now we are reaping the benefits of it. He never saw 90% of the money listed on the orignal contract.

Deangelo is a beast and and if Stewart got hurt we'd be stuck with Goodson trying to pass protect cam in the backfield and hes no threat to stop teams from blitzing the poo out of Cam.

Peppers wanted out and no amount of money could have changed that.

Dan Morgan was a beast when healthy. He played in more games in 05 than any other season, the following year is when Witherspoon left. Spoon got big money and fizzled out.

Muhammed went to chicago for a big payday and averaged less yards in his three years with them(also the prime age of his career) than he did in 11 seasons here. We got him back for less money, after those 3 seasons.

Hangartner got paid big money by the Bills. He then got cut and is now back with us at a reasonable price. There may be more but get you get the point.

- Agreed

- Love Deangelo, but business is business. We could have franchised him.

- Never suggested keeping Pep, should have let him out sooner, but hindsight is 20/20. At the time I wanted to franchise tag him until he gave in and stayed, but would have been a bad idea.

- Dan was a beast when healthy. Hardly ever healthy. Spoon fizzled out after a nice career of playing out of position (MLB). Don't agree here.

- Muhammad wanted his payday, and we didn't ante up. It was a good move on our part.

- Hangartner leaving was never a problem. We had our center and he wasn't worth the money at guard. Ok with letting him go.

[panthers55]

2003 was not the last time we signed a bunch of free agents. But 2003 was one of the last years that our free agents really excelled above their value. In 2003 we got a Stephen Davis comin off injury, Ricky Proehl who was considered over the hill, and a career backup in Jake Delhomme. We also added Bryszinski, Favors and Dyson. Who???

In 2005 we spent as much adding Lucas as we did everyone in 2003. Then we made a big splash in 2006 adding Maake Kemoeatu, Keith Adams, Justin Hartwig, Damione Lewis, Shaun Williams and Kevin McCadam.

The difference? In 2003 all those guys had monster seasons. In 2006, those guys cost tons more and performed okay. We tried again in 2007 with David Carr.

In 2008 we shifted gears and went the whole add journeymen and reasonably cheap players. That is what we have done ever since.

[bleys]

Fair points on Davis and Peppers. I never really suggested trading Peppers, moreso suggesting we let him walk sooner if the front office saw the contract dispute to keep him here (he didn't want to be here) being a major issue. I understand, we had to have win back-to-back seasons, but the money saved from franchising him could have gotten us a replacement, or we could have traded for someone, or drafted accordingly, etc.

No major financial loss on Davis, so I understand keeping him, but the original numbers were head scratching.

I don't agree on the Witherspoon and Morgan situation. From what I understood, they put both offers on the table and said the first one that accepts, stays. Morgan would have to be an idiot not to sign it. Witherspoon was never going to play MLB. We would have needed a new MLB but Spoon wouldn't have played there except in a pinch. I have no doubt that Spoon wanted to get paid, but we could have upped our offer to Spoon and either franchised Morgan or signed him to a smaller 1 year prove-it deal. IMO, that situation was mishandled because they were so in awe of Morgan's ability that he was only able to put on the field half of the season, if that.

I think you're right about Morgan -vs- Witherspoon.. so Hurney f**ked up in one of those examples given.. I think at that time it's not unreasonable to understand why Morgan was valued higher.. Although hindsight says otherwise..

We could have let Pep walk, but there's no way that was going to happen with jobs on the line and the great talent Peppers brought to the table... even if it cleared cap space to bring in a lesser talent, IMO, it's obvious Fox wasn't mortgaging his future on anyone else..

[panthers55]

People do not usually pick teams based on who the general manager is. I am not saying Hurney is the worst manager ever but if you are commited to build only through the draft you better be dam good at taking picks.

Since when do we only build through the draft? You keep saying that but we added quite a few guys last year through free agency and later in the season. We even traded for Olsen as well. What we do is draft our superstars while they are cheap on a rookie contract like Newton and add reasonably priced free agents.

[R0CKnR0LLA]

The same people that bitch about Hurney not overpaying players during the Free Agency frenzy are the same people that create threads hoping they can convince Hurney (somehow) to sign washed up players that have recently been cut because they have a good rating on their latest version of Madden (which is probably outdated). Trying to build a team completely through FA is a recipe for having a team that is overrated, old, and expensive. FA should be for patching a hole here or there and for adding depth, not for creating a team. I'm much more comfortable with the team trying to build through the draft. Either option can be considered a risk, if you will, but I'd rather have a bad team that is cheap and young, than a bad team that is expensive and old.

you realize you can do both, right? making solid free agent acquisitions doesn't stop you from using your draft picks.

[XClown1986]

I think you're right about Morgan -vs- Witherspoon.. so Hurney f**ked up in one of those examples given.. I think at that time it's not unreasonable to understand why Morgan was valued higher.. Although hindsight says otherwise..

We could have let Pep walk, but there's no way that was going to happen with jobs on the line and the great talent Peppers brought to the table... even if it cleared cap space to bring in a lesser talent, IMO, it's obvious Fox wasn't mortgaging his future on anyone else..

I was a huge Morgan fan. There is no telling what kind of career he could have had if he could stay healthy. He was a beast.

Hurney has a tough job, I guess my point is I hope he learns from his mistakes and knows when to cut his losses if he has to.

[Actionman0z]

Am I the only one that thinks one of Hurney's faults is NOT letting some of our guys walk?

I mean I love Davis as a player, but let's face it, he should have NEVER gotten the contract that he did when coming off of 2 ACL tears.

Same with Deangelo, love him as a player, but runningbacks are a dime a dozen, and Stewart was waiting in the wings. We should have franchised him for a season and let him walk this year.

Dragging the whole Peppers thing out I sort of understood, but the reality is that we still ended up letting him walk after he was kicking and screaming to leave, and all we got was a 3rd round Comp. Pick for him that we spent on Sione Fua.

And no I still won't forgive keeping Dan Morgan over Will Witherspoon. The writing was on the wall for Dan, and yet we offered him a contract big enough that we couldn't keep Spoon as well. Stupid move.

I know Hurney wants to build our "core", but sometimes I fear that he really can't pick out who the "core" players are or should be.

Agree on all points, as well as the waiting for players to develop piece. Of course there will always be players with a change of staff and scenery who will blossom, but.. they are few and far between. I still hate the Morgan vs. Witherspoon deals.. although most people on this board think they could play linebacker in the NFL and for some reason think most of the ones we've had over the years suck.

[bleys]

2003 was not the last time we signed a bunch of free agents. But 2003 was one of the last years that our free agents really excelled above their value. In 2003 we got a Stephen Davis comin off injury, Ricky Proehl who was considered over the hill, and a career backup in Jake Delhomme. We also added Bryszinski, Favors and Dyson. Who???

In 2005 we spent as much adding Lucas as we did everyone in 2003. Then we made a big splash in 2006 adding Maake Kemoeatu, Keith Adams, Justin Hartwig, Damione Lewis, Shaun Williams and Kevin McCadam.

The difference? In 2003 all those guys had monster seasons. In 2006, those guys cost tons more and performed okay. We tried again in 2007 with David Carr.

In 2008 we shifted gears and went the whole add journeymen and reasonably cheap players. That is what we have done ever since.

and Mike Wahle...

[CRA]

Davis's contract was strucutred perfectly and now we are reaping the benefits of it. He never saw 90% of the money listed on the orignal contract.

Deangelo is a beast and and if Stewart got hurt we'd be stuck with Goodson trying to pass protect cam in the backfield and hes no threat to stop teams from blitzing the poo out of Cam.

Peppers wanted out and no amount of money could have changed that.

Dan Morgan was a beast when healthy. He played in more games in 05 than any other season, the following year is when Witherspoon left. Spoon got big money and fizzled out.

Muhammed went to chicago for a big payday and averaged less yards in his three years with them(also the prime age of his career) than he did in 11 seasons here. We got him back for less money, after those 3 seasons.

Hangartner got paid big money by the Bills. He then got cut and is now back with us at a reasonable price. There may be more but get you get the point.

Davis left us with a hole bc he couldn't play...OLB should of already been addressed with another body

RBs are a dime a dozen and it isn't like pass protection is something Williams is very good at. In addition we have a stud on the roster who fits ideally in this scheme....and it is a passing league

Peppers should of been dealt instead of being tagged

[CatMan72]

We build primarily through the draft, just like GB and the Steelers... it's been said over and over again. This is the surest path to success, but it takes more time to build the team up. History tells us that most of the FA signings we saw yesterday will end up being mistakes or at the very least will fall far short of expectations.

We will sign a few FA's to compliment our core, which we are building through the draft. These will be much less expensive FA's that will probably contribute as much if not more than the big name, expensive FA's you see flying off the shelf right now.

It's not a matter of being cheap, we spent a ton of $ on our own core FA's last year... it's a matter of building a team up the right way instead of looking for a quick fix (which usually doesn't work out).

[bleys]

I was a huge Morgan fan. There is no telling what kind of career he could have had if he could stay healthy. He was a beast.

Hurney has a tough job, I guess my point is I hope he learns from his mistakes and knows when to cut his losses if he has to.

as do I.. I was against resigning DWill, and voiced that all last year.. I hope the rumors are true that his contract was front loaded...

in what world would John Fox have cut Wharton? I think our coach determines just as much of player personnel..

[CatMan72]

Morgan vs. Witherspoon is a classic example of hindsight = 20/20.