34 - Not the Defense

[panthers55]

I find it hilarious when fans say "we shouldn't have re-signed (player name here)." Any of you remember when we had the Hornets and Shinn NEVER re-signed any of our guys that became free agents? Yeah, those were awesome times. It only has to happen 2 or 3 times and then your owner gets the "cheap" tag, and players won't want to come and play for them.

JR rewards guys that are productive on the field and great (or at least try to be) off of it as well. And he's letting future players know, he will take care of you if you hold up your end of the deal. We'll be fine. And when you have guys that have gamebreaking ability, you need to keep them. If he would've let DWill walk, you guys would be the same ones b*tching when Goodson or Vaughn got in the game and fumbled repeatedly.

And last I heard, Stew wants to re-sign as well when his contract is up. They are assets to our franchise and they deserve to get paid as such.

To me it was more than paying Dwill what he deserved. It was a signal to the rest of the players that if you produce now you will be rewarded by the team later.

I think both of you hit the nail on the head, Hurney and Richardson have a fault of rewarding players for past as well as present performance. They let the players know that if you toil for cheap but are productive like Williams has been and Stewart is, when it is time for a big money contract, they wil reward them handsomely. Do they have to do that?? There are teams out there who wouldn't and don't but as a former player Richardson knows how that feels and wants to do the right thing. He knows this is a business and doesn't throw away money. So why do it?? Because as you say the message is not only to reward present day players but those playing on rookie or cheap contracts.

When you look at yards per carry both Stewart and Williams are in the top 5 running backs who have more than a 100 carries. Only Fred Jackson and Demarco Murray are above him (at 5.5) assuming we classify Newton as a QB who runs. He is tied with Stewart, Tate and McFadden.

[panthers55]

Deangelo Williams- 5.4 YPC, 155 carries- 836 yards- 7 TDS-salary 5.25 M

Darren Mcfadden--- 5.4 YPC, 113 carries-614 yards- 4TDs- salary 5.65 M

Chris Johnson-------4.0 YPC- 262 carries- 1047 yards-4 TDs- salary 8 M

Adrian Peterson-----4.7 YPC- 208 carries- 970 yards- 12 TDs- salary 8 M

Steven Jackson-----4.4 YPC- 260 carries- 1145 yards- 5 TDs- salary 7 M

Frank Gore----------4.3 YPC- 282 carries- 1211 yards- 8 TDs- salary 6 M

There are others like Maurice Jones Drew, Michael Turner, etc who are paid well and are on their big money contract (2nd). Of the top 6, Williams is paid the least yet is the most productive from a yards per carry. Is it his fault that we only rush him 155 times a game? Could we utilize him more?? Absolutely. Maybe having a defense that gets us off the field quicker will give us more chances to run. Maybe having some leads in the 4th quarter might ramp up the run game.

Could you make a list of lower paid guys who are very productive? Absolutely, especially if, like Stewart, they are on their rookie contract. But there are many other backs who are also well compensated on their second contracts. I guess it means Hurney might be crazy but he is not alone.

[ed bell]

True, can also that isn't a great approach to win championships...NE for example, have a practice of shipping guys off after they get the bulk of the good out them. Let some other team pay them for what they were.

Make exceptions for a few...the winning will always keep players from wanting to be part of it

A) Williams wasn't/isn't washed up. Those who hated him getting re-signed were discouraged that Stewart didn't completely show him up this year. (The adamant few hate to be wrong at almost any cost) Mostly you hear money bellyaching and projections about how RB's suck when they turn 30. (Williams will be 29 on April 25th.)

B) The Patriots weren't winning championships because of cutting older vets loose. If anything they have a diluted team identity being held together by a weak AFC and Brady being an all-world QB. The Patriots were winning Championships because Belechek got stupid lucky picking Brady and had a good run in the first half of last decade.

Not sure about the last sentence you posted...are you saying winning will make players not care about being well compensated?

[I am Hubby]

There is no, I repeat, no tangible evidence to support the fact that D-Will has slowed down.

Stew should look to get a D-Will type deal. It will be his decision on whether he gets it from us, or form someone else.

The cap goes up after next year. So please stop using cap phobia as a reason to get rid of either RB.

We have two, count em', two great RBs and some people still are not happy. Me? I am as giddy as the law allows. Ain't no way any of you "We have too much tied up at RB, the sky is falling. Our D sucks cuz we have too much tied up in RB." types can ruin it.

You can harp and complain all you want. OR, you can join the rest of us and rejoice in Double Trouble. It really does not hurt to actually root for good things to happen. The future is bright. No reason to diminish that fact with unwarrented negativity.

I will admit that D-Will seems to struggle with route running. But I do not see the problem with his blocking. I have seen him pop many a LB, or CB. Stew seems to get the pass as he is moving forward. D-Will seems to be standing still or moving laterally. Or is it just me?

Giddy up or giddy out. And GOOOOO CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CRA]

A) Williams wasn't/isn't washed up. Those who hated him getting re-signed were discouraged that Stewart didn't completely show him up this year. (The adamant few hate to be wrong at almost any cost) Mostly you hear money bellyaching and projections about how RB's suck when they turn 30. (Williams will be 29 on April 25th.)

B) The Patriots weren't winning championships because of cutting older vets loose. If anything they have a diluted team identity being held together by a weak AFC and Brady being an all-world QB. The Patriots were winning Championships because Belechek got stupid lucky picking Brady and had a good run in the first half of last decade.

Not sure about the last sentence you posted...are you saying winning will make players not care about being well compensated?

A- I never said he was. His decline is right around the corner though. In addition he plays a position where that investment just isn't needed in today's NFL.

B- the Patriots under Belichick have been notorious for cutting ties with players after they have peaked with them. Doesn't matter of they lucked into Brady or not...they have the real piece that matters. No need in overpaying certain guys or paying them for past work.

I am saying I you win constantly...players will want to play for you regardless. You don't have to overpay guys in order to make yourself an attractive destination.

[CRA]

There is no, I repeat, no tangible evidence to support the fact that D-Will has slowed down.

Stew should look to get a D-Will type deal. It will be his decision on whether he gets it from us, or form someone else.

The cap goes up after next year. So please stop using cap phobia as a reason to get rid of either RB.

We have two, count em', two great RBs and some people still are not happy. Me? I am as giddy as the law allows. Ain't no way any of you "We have too much tied up at RB, the sky is falling. Our D sucks cuz we have too much tied up in RB." types can ruin it.

You can harp and complain all you want. OR, you can join the rest of us and rejoice in Double Trouble. It really does not hurt to actually root for good things to happen. The future is bright. No reason to diminish that fact with unwarrented negativity.

I will admit that D-Will seems to struggle with route running. But I do not see the problem with his blocking. I have seen him pop many a LB, or CB. Stew seems to get the pass as he is moving forward. D-Will seems to be standing still or moving laterally. Or is it just me?

Giddy up or giddy out. And GOOOOO CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reason people moan about the contract is Williams will be 29 next year....he will be slowing down. We have Stewart and Cam....he is a luxury plain and simple. Having two great RBs isn't something I care about now that Fox is gone....would rather have Cam, Stewart and a great player starting somewhere else. Could of used that last year.....could use that this upcoming year.

[panthers55]

I never said Williams was terrible, or even bad, or average. Just that we didn't need him, and we certainly "long term" couldn't afford him.

I am making the point that this team needed a change of pace back, that can catch and pass protect on 3rd down. Instead we got an older, slower, 2nd string back with many of the same talents of our 1st stringer. And a cap his this year of over 8.5 million.

Sproles was a star in SD. Do you realize that they placed the franchise tag on him the year before?

Again, I am not comparing the two side by side and saying that Sproles is the better player/rb. I am comparing the two side by side and also looking at the contracts side by side. Darren wins in a landslide, and it's not even close.

He won't likely see his last year or two of the contract unless he remains as productive as he is right now. He is top 5 in Yards per carry. He is not slower by any measure and older doesn't matter if he is still productive.

His salary won't be top 5 this year particularly if several backs are franchised as expected.

Sproles was franchised in 2009 when he made 6.62M and in 2010 he was a RFA but got 7.28 M because they had to pay him 10% over the 2009 salary.

In 2009- Sproles had 93 rushing attempts for 343 yards (3.7YPC) and another 45 receptions for 497 yards. Then in 2010 he had 50 carries for 267 yards ( 5.3 yards) and 59 catches for 520 yards..

So lets review, Sproles is a star who was worth franchising in 2009 and paying 10% more in 2010. But Wiliams is superfluous yet he had more rushing yards and passing yards in 2011 then Sproles did any season for SD. And before you go there, returning yards can't be seen in the same light unless you are Devin Hester. Otherwise you have to make Pilares a great returner with his 20 returns for 25.7 yards a return which is a better average than Sproles had in San Diego.

[Herbert The Love Bug]

[panthers55]

The reason people moan about the contract is Williams will be 29 next year....he will be slowing down. We have Stewart and Cam....he is a luxury plain and simple. Having two great RBs isn't something I care about now that Fox is gone....would rather have Cam, Stewart and a great player starting somewhere else. Could of used that last year.....could use that this upcoming year.

Why don't we wait until he actually does start slowing down before we start bitching. Given he has been sharing carries there is no reason to believe he will have a drop off anytime soon. His 5.4 average in 2011 is second best in his career. Again there is no factual basis for your argument just your opinion which is not shared by the coaches or the front office.

[ed bell]

A- I never said he was. His decline is right around the corner though. In addition he plays a position where that investment just isn't needed in today's NFL.

B- the Patriots under Belichick have been notorious for cutting ties with players after they have peaked with them. Doesn't matter of they lucked into Brady or not...they have the real piece that matters. No need in overpaying certain guys or paying them for past work.

I am saying I you win constantly...players will want to play for you regardless. You don't have to overpay guys in order to make yourself an attractive destination.

I was simply speaking to the point of "shipping guys off after they get the bulk of the good out them". Your projecting a decline "right around the corner", but there's no reason to think it'll be this year. I'll even give him the year he's 30....low miles. After that, we'll see. Plenty of teams pay premium money at RB, more than us even. The guys have been listed and there will be more examples this year.

The Patriots haven't gotten it done since their last SB. With Brady still giving all-world QB play they can't get it together. I don't care if they are running through players like socks out of a drawer, it isn't necessarily yielding positive results. To be honest, I don't even know why you're saying we run counter to them when it comes to cutting players after they peaked. We're one of the youngest teams in the NFL with, what, 6 players over 30? Both kickers, Shockey, Wharton, Steve Smith (haha) and Edwards (32)?

[CRA]

I was simply speaking to the point of "shipping guys off after they get the bulk of the good out them". Your projecting a decline "right around the corner", but there's no reason to think it'll be this year. I'll even give him the year he's 30....low miles. After that, we'll see. Plenty of teams pay premium money at RB, more than us even. The guys have been listed and there will be more examples this year.

The Patriots haven't gotten it done since their last SB. With Brady still giving all-world QB play they can't get it together. I don't care if they are running through players like socks out of a drawer, it isn't necessarily yielding positive results. To be honest, I don't even know why you're saying we run counter to them when it comes to cutting players after they peaked. We're one of the youngest teams in the NFL with, what, 6 players over 30? Both kickers, Shockey, Wharton, Steve Smith (haha) and Edwards (32)?

Most NFL RB simply are not in their prime at 29 and 30....so yeah, I would say his decline is right around the corner. I counter his relatively moderate mileage in Carolina with his absurd college load RBs don't have nowadays upon entering the league.

There isnt a team in the NFL that pays premium money to a RB....that has a younger 1st round draft pick on their roster besides Carolina.

The Patriots aren't yielding positive results? LOL....they have had a winning record the past 11 CONSECUTIVE YEARS. How many does Carolina have?

You claiming Carolina doesn't have a history of paying players for what they have done in the past and not what they will do?

[ed bell]

Most NFL RB simply are not in their prime at 29 and 30....so yeah, I would say his decline is right around the corner.

OK- I gave him two more good years. You gave him "right around the corner" again.

The Patriots aren't yielding positive results? LOL....they have had a winning record the past 11 CONSECUTIVE YEARS. How many does Carolina have?

Since the last SB win they haven't gotten it done despite Brady being Manning good. I'd blame it on Belichick's personnel decisions. They better win with an all-world QB. Window is closing.

Not 11. I get it...the Brady/Belichick years have been great, but they haven't closed the deal since the 2004 season.

You claiming Carolina doesn't have a history of paying players for what they have done in the past and not what they will do?

What? All I said was we aren't clinging to players beyond their peak and we have a really young team to prove it. Players have been paid for outperforming their contract. No dispute there, but they are expected to be able to work moving forward. Some in the past worked out, some didn't.

[panthers55]

Most NFL RB simply are not in their prime at 29 and 30....so yeah, I would say his decline is right around the corner. I counter his relatively moderate mileage in Carolina with his absurd college load RBs don't have nowadays upon entering the league.

There isnt a team in the NFL that pays premium money to a RB....that has a younger 1st round draft pick on their roster besides Carolina.

The Patriots aren't yielding positive results? LOL....they have had a winning record the past 11 CONSECUTIVE YEARS. How many does Carolina have?

You claiming Carolina doesn't have a history of paying players for what they have done in the past and not what they will do?

Here is a good study which is quite long and arduous. if you can't sleep it will knock you right out.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=nfl%20running%20backs%20productive%20in%20thier%20thirties&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthesis.haverford.edu%2Fdspace%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F10066%2F6074%2F2010KennedyC_Thesis.pdf%3Fsequence%3D1&ei=LJ1ZT5OlEIfh0QGCwYiwDw&usg=AFQjCNEyYFINpBg3WvccYs-n3chrTfsB8w

Seems production decline is not as linear as you suggest with general trends showing decline from 27 on. Problems with a straight line theory include that as the group ages and the aggregate number of seasons dwindlles only productive backs last that long so there is not much drop off between 27-30. Plus they use fantasy points and yards per game as their measures instead of a much better one which would be yards per carry. They also don't control for injuries, changing schemes, teams, etc.

They also found that backs show their biggest production decrease between 1750 and 2000 carries. Seems that is more important than their age. Then again there seems to an increase in productivity between 2000 and 2750 carries and then a sharp decline after 3000 carries.

Williams has 995 carries so he will reach the 1750 stage in roughly 4 years at the same time he will be 32 years. What will be the decline on average- 9 yards a game and 1 fantasy point. I gues it is a good thing his contract ends in 4 years assuming he makes it that long.

[megadeth078]

Unlike some fans think...this a business. Carolina has tried to do that...Stewart has rejected the talks at this time. Stewart is fully aware of when he can get his big payday and you can't blame him. Keeping him will require a bigger deal than Williams got....he will be younger and more valuable in comparison to when Williams got his.

Something tells me Stew is going to take off as soon as his contract ends.

Hey, as long as we kept our senior citizen running back who peaked in 2008. :(