Brockers=overrated?

[panthers55]

Exactly... He wouldn't just be playing out of scheme for us, it would be out of position as well. I like Kuechly, I think he projects as a trendous MLB no matter how much P55 tries to make it look like I believe otherwise.

I just don't see much benefit in signing him in how he relates to us.

What P55 thinks is that you appear confused about our scheme, what positions translate to one another, etc. If a player would be a tremendous MLB for us then that doesn't make him a role player at outside as if these positions are so different that a player couldn't translate from one to the other. The exception to that is a guy with limited skills like Connor not the best linebacker in the draft. If you couldn't translate folks from one position to the other, then we wouldn't have moved Beason outside. Why was he not as effective? Not because of skill set but because he wasn't disciplined enough to maintain gap integrity. Beason was so used to flowing with the ball that he struggled to stay where he belonged and was caught out of position too often.

Linebackers in the 4-3 are interchangeable for the most part. What limited Connor to only a MLB was stiff hips, lack of speed and difficulty in coverage. But Keuchly doesn't have that problem. He is good in coverage, quick enough to cover TEs and runningbacks, strong and good in pass coverage. In fact the truth is that he has the ability to play all three positions and as such is more versatile than Beason.

As for scheme he can play the 3-4 or the 4-3. He wold be ideal at an ILB in a 3-4 or inside or out in a 4-3. For what it is worth he couldn't play the outside linebacker in a 3-4 because he lacks the size but he would be ideal in a 4-3 where guys are not taking on DEs on a regular basis.

[CRA]

In the top 10 you draft a BPA at a position of need not just BPA. Other than QB you are getting the likely one of the best two players in that category so you look for a guy who can be an impact player that year or at least the next. What you seem to think is a reach others think is getting the bext player in the draft at that position. When you become a professional analyst then your opinion shold matter over those who are. So far 2 or 3 sites have projected us taking Poe or Kuechly.

DL, LB, CB, S are all positions of need. You draft the BPA on D.

Yes, we don't draft Richardson bc we have zero need and would have too much talent stacked there.

Also, don't give this crap on a sports message board about opinions not mattering. That is 95% of what you, I and everyone else does here.

Many professionals have routinely proved that some have no clue about Carolina....which is why so many predicted Fox taking a rec TE so often. They paid no attention to the fact Fox thought TEs should be blockers first and foremost. Come on now...

[panthers55]

I feel as if we need to give Mcclain and Fua another season, they had no offseason at all. Plus Kalil said he feels that Fua will become a very good player. Plus Kearse, Shirley, and Neblett all showed promise. None of these DT's are worth our pick.

I would agree that Fua and McClain were put in a very difficult spot. They had no OTAs, no offseason, no training camp and were just thrust into a starter role. That doesn't mean I think that we shouldn't upgrade or that we should go with who we have. I just would agree that we don't know what we have until we give them a full offseason to develop their NFL body and learn better hand and foot technique. I would see using Poe as a 3 technique guy to start with moving him to the 1 after learning the position and when Edwards is done.

[panthers55]

I feel as if we need to give Mcclain and Fua another season, they had no offseason at all. Plus Kalil said he feels that Fua will become a very good player. Plus Kearse, Shirley, and Neblett all showed promise. None of these DT's are worth our pick.

I would agree that Fua and McClain were put in a very difficult spot. They had no OTAs, no offseason, no training camp and were just thrust into a starter role. That doesn't mean I think that we shouldn't upgrade or that we should go with who we have. I just would agree that we don't know what we have until we give them a full offseason to develop their NFL body and learn better hand and foot technique. I would see using Poe as a 3 technique guy to start with moving him to the 1 after learning the position and when Edwards is done. Then again having Poe and Fua together could be like the Williams brothers in Minnesota in a year or two.

[Cat'sGrowl]

Again go back and learn about Jim Johnson's 4-3 and get back with me. For the record which of the linebackers blitzs the most in his scheme?? That would be the MLB about 60% of the time. What does the SAM do? Cover the TE, make tackles in the run game, play outside zone short, sometimes cover the slot receiver, blitz about 10% of the time. If we go to a 3-4 which we won't then Keuchly would shift to an ILB not an outside linebacker so his blitzing skills and pass rushing skills which you seem to think are such an issue would not be.

He would be a great outside linebacker. Do me favor how doing what I did earlier in this thread, find an expert who agrees with your point of view. All I see is your opinion which has no credibility as all. You clearly don't know Jim Johnson's scheme or how it was played?

Lol if you're accusing me of not understanding the JJ 4-3 then the only natural response is Right Back At You, Friend.

The Sam in this defense is expected to blitz *at least* half the time. So what were talking about here is an OLB who may-may- carry value on roughly half of all of his defensive snaps, if he even has enough athleticism to cover the Gronk's and Graham's of the world, and since athleticism isn't exactly what he's known for (and no, being able to run in a straight line doesn't award him that) then it makes one wonder how he will be able to be an elite player on this defense at this level if he's moved outside.

As for the MLBs responsibility as a blitzer, that only detracts from your argument not mine. My point is that he would be largely out of place in this scheme as a whole, which is only further validated by the fact that the MLB is asked to blitz so much, so one has to wonder whose confused.

[Matthias]

Did the link in the OP also say Brockers had a fake smile?:cam:

[panthers55]

DL, LB, CB, S are all positions of need. You draft the BPA on D.

Yes, we don't draft Richardson bc we have zero need and would have too much talent stacked there.

Also, don't give this crap on a sports message board about opinions not mattering. That is 95% of what you, I and everyone else does here.

Many professionals have routinely proved that some have no clue about Carolina....which is why so many predicted Fox taking a rec TE so often. They paid no attention to the fact Fox thought TEs should be blockers first and foremost. Come on now...

If you predicate your statement that BPA is at a position of need then I would agree with you.

As for giving your opinion, I have no problem with that. If you say that this player at number 9 is a reach and is a great pick at 20 then if you want credibility back it up with fact, an expert's opinion or something to give you credibility. Otherwise it has no credibility at all and people like me will question it. if you show that Mayock for example agrees, then it is an imformed opinion shared by experts.

As for who you think we should take or will take in the draft, that a huddler opinion is as likely to be correct as an expert.

[panthers55]

Lol if you're accusing me of not understanding the JJ 4-3 then the only natural response is Right Back At You, Friend.

The Sam in this defense is expected to blitz *at least* half the time. So what were talking about here is an OLB who may-may- carry value on roughly half of all of his defensive snaps, if he even has enough athleticism to cover the Gronk's and Graham's of the world, and since athleticism isn't exactly what he's known for (and no, being able to run in a straight line doesn't award him that) then it makes one wonder how he will be able to be an elite player on this defense at this level if he's moved outside.

As for the MLBs responsibility as a blitzer, that only detracts from your argument not mine. My point is that he would be largely out of place in this scheme as a whole, which is only further validated by the fact that the MLB is asked to blitz so much, so one has to wonder whose confused.

I will grant you that I interchanged the Will linebacker who blitzes roughly 10-15% with the Sam linebacker who blitzes roughly 50% of the time. We all agree that the MLB blitzes 65% of the time.

No we are not talking about a guy who isn't valuable 50% of the time unless you think that he can't learn to blitz. Because he didn't do it in college because of their scheme, it doesn't mean he can't do it in the NFl. After all he is fast, instinctual, intelligent, strong which all translates to being to do whatever he needs to be able to do. He was the best linebacker in college last year not a one trick pony. As for only having straight line speed go back and read the analyses which say he excels in changing direction, has good lateral speed, has a quick first step etc. For some strange reason you seem to want to discount his skills when he was a great linebacker in college. We must be talking about diffirent guys. I am talking about Keuchly who blew up the combine and was the butkus award winner making him the best linebacker in college. Whoever you are talking about is not the same player. I am talking about a guy with a 38 inch vertical leap (third best), a broad jump of 123 (5th best), 3 cone drill of 6.92 (6th best) and a shuttle of 4.12 (4th). But you don't think he is athletic???

What you assume is that he can't play the position of OLB and you glum on one tiny aspect of his draft analysis that reflects more what he has not been asked to do not rather than what he is capable of doing. Plus you confuse what was said about him as a 3-4 outside linebacker with what would be expected of him as a 4-3 linebacker. A 3-4 outside linebacker would be expected to rush the passer and take on DEs versus what a linebacker in a 4-3 does which is shoot the gap or worry about a chip block from a TE or running back. His speed and strength and agility should increase the likelihood he makes the play not diminish it. Rushing the passer in a 3-4 versus blitzing in a 4-3 are worlds apart. Plus you say he would be a great middle linebacker and they blitz 65% of the time yet he would be out of place if he played outside and they blitz 50% or 15% depending of if they play Sam or Will???? Yet he can't blitz and that would be a liability????? He would great for the Mike and that requires him to drop into a middle zone on the pass and play the run in the box but average at best covering the outside zone and runs around the edges. Yet his analysis says he is good in pass coverage, can cover TEs and running backs who typically are in the flats or are on the edges in a screen???????

Given that the Will linebacker is considered the most athletic of the three 4-3 linebackers and many experts think that it is the most important of the linebackers in a 4-3, lets say we make him the Will not the Sam. After all we tried to do that with Beason and he struggled. Putting Keuchly there would be an upgrade. And this article about the 3-4 suggests that an inside 3-4 linebacker would easily translate to either a Mike or a Will in a 4-3.

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/265696

So tell me again why he would be out of place in our scheme. And what scheme would he be great in?? An inside 3-4 linebacker?? Yeah they blitz sometimes up to 40-50% of the time. or are we saying that the butkus award winner wouldn't fit into any scheme in the NFL???

[CRA]

If you predicate your statement that BPA is at a position of need then I would agree with you.

As for giving your opinion, I have no problem with that. If you say that this player at number 9 is a reach and is a great pick at 20 then if you want credibility back it up with fact, an expert's opinion or something to give you credibility. Otherwise it has no credibility at all and people like me will question it. if you show that Mayock for example agrees, then it is an imformed opinion shared by experts.

As for who you think we should take or will take in the draft, that a huddler opinion is as likely to be correct as an expert.

Well, I should of been more clear...BPA on D.

Also, you can find a so called expert saying just about everything pending you aren't in left field.

[carpanfan96]

Brockers isn't ready to play first season either, he's just as much of a project as any DT in this draft. His technique SUCKS!!!!!!! He plays high like a mfer and got pushed around a lot, I don't know what the heck any one saw that showed other wise. Brockers would get pushed around just as much as Fua....wanna know why????

They had the same weaknesses, playing high out of the stance. DT is highly about technique and it's going to take a while for a team to get Brockers to not come out high.

As for Keuchly, P55 nailed it on the head in his last post.

[DaCityKats]

OTA 's and training camp is were you learn the technical things he will be fine playing next year.

[carpanfan96]

OTA 's and training camp is were you learn the technical things he will be fine playing next year.

It would take more then a training camp to knock someone out of something they do out of habit and instinctively. It's one of the reason's DT's take so long to develop, most come out of college with serious issues technique wise. Brockers is no different.

[DaCityKats]

It would take more then a training camp to knock someone out of something they do out of habit and instinctively. It's one of the reason's DT's take so long to develop, most come out of college with serious issues technique wise. Brockers is no different.

but that will not stop them from not seeing the field. plenty of DL rookies have came in raw and were still able to produce. technique will be taught.

[ed bell]

It would take more then a training camp to knock someone out of something they do out of habit and instinctively. It's one of the reason's DT's take so long to develop, most come out of college with serious issues technique wise. Brockers is no different.

I can totally buy this...blows my mind how quickly folks are willing to blow off Fua and McClain before they get any development time under their belts, and there have been plenty willing to brand each as rotational quality at best. This drives the "DT is a serious need" crowd when it comes to the draft. I just don't see an immediate impact DL candidate for us at 9. Edwards might be a question mark insomuch as he hasn't been observed on the field in a Panther uniform, but Rivera wanted him bad enough to make it happen. I trust him.