Brockers=overrated?

[CRA]

I want BPA on D and from what I have read from panthers55 he is on that same page mostly now. We may or may not agree on who that is but we seem to both think that is what Carolina should do. I may be to a larger degree but he seems to voice a similar mindset lately (he can correct me if I am wrong).

I think we both think Luke has good odds of being BPA on D.

If I am wrong about the above I do think 55 and I think LB is a clear need. DT may or may not be a bigger one but that it isn't so great we should ignore other players on D and just grab a DT.

[CRA]

Also, I think selective reasoning is being used.

Poe for example, has all the physical tools you could want. Wasn't overly impressive on the field but there is a reasonable assumption a NFL staff can teach him the techniques to be a highly productive player.

Now, Kuechly, has all the physical tools to play multiple LB positions. He was very very productive in college as an inside LB in BCs scheme. However, despite his physical tools that suggest he can do more than what BC asked of him... some assume with him he only can do what he did in college.

I mean, how can you assume one guy can show improved instincts, grow, learn techniques, etc...yet the other is limited when they both physically show the potential to do more than what they did in college? If you assume Keuchly can't blitz b/c that wasn't asked of him often....how can you assume DTs will learn to do things they didn't do.

Also, if our LBs don't return in the best case scenario I don't know how you can assume a ready to play LB will have less of an impact over a DT(Brockers or Poe) who likely could need a couple years before he is ready for a big role on D.

[I am Hubby]

We will draft BPA, just as we always do. Sorta.

The problem is the fact that there is no consensus choice for our #9 pick. I like talent, add some impact moments, throw in a dash of swag kind of players on my team. I do not see one at 9.

Best case scenario, some joker trades us out of this train wreck of a pick. I don't want to reach for potential. We absolutely MUST find an impact player with that pick.

I wish I was more confident we could get Garay. Signing him would start the domino affect to filling most of our needs.

This #9 pick is definately exciting. And GOOOOOO CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[panthers55]

I want BPA on D and from what I have read from panthers55 he is on that same page mostly now. We may or may not agree on who that is but we seem to both think that is what Carolina should do. I may be to a larger degree but he seems to voice a similar mindset lately (he can correct me if I am wrong).

I think we both think Luke has good odds of being BPA on D.

If I am wrong about the above I do think 55 and I think LB is a clear need. DT may or may not be a bigger one but that it isn't so great we should ignore other players on D and just grab a DT.

I am worried about the linebacker position. Apparently more than Rivera from the recent interview he gave. I can only hope he is smokescreening but he is usually a straight shooter. I am worried that davis is done and Beason may have a setback.

From Rivera's comments it seems that corner and DE are his perceived needs. I could see that logic assuming that our linebacking corps comes back strong. I share your concern though, I don't think we can count on both of them coming back healthy and I don't think we have enough backups especially if Connor is gone as expected.

As for Kuechly, I think people who denigrate him or suggest he is average are just showing their own lack of knowledge. Luke is a gamechanger in the mode of Patrick Willis. Luke will be everything Dan Morgan was without the health concerns and with more versatility against the pass. Big expectations for sure but I think they are justified.

But yeak I want a gamechanger and honestly when you pick ninth you are usually going BPA at a position of need,most times the best player at that position with the exception of quarterback where it might net you the 3rd or 4th best QB if you went that way.

[panthers55]

Allow me to say this and it will seque nicely into responding this post:

OLB is a plug and play position. If you stick a great DL in front of an average LB squad, what you have is a dominant front 7. If you stick an elite LB corp behind a poor DL, all you get is an average defense and a nice long IR list.

So with Kuechly, we get a LB who would have to be taught to rush the passer, become refined at doing so, and hope that he had a talent for it, and then still have zero help in front of him. The list of non-pass rushing LBs taken the last ten years or so was posted earlier, and I encourage you to go back and look at it. It's a small list for a reason- OLBs just don't carry much value early in the draft. The fact that Kuechly plays the middle is part of the reason his value is so high to begin with. It just isn't a mutually beneficial move for either side. You move him outside and takes away the oodles of potential he has as a Mike in another team's Cover 2, where he's best suited anyways. As for us, it just doesn't aid us in a way another defensive prospect could.

Kuechly is rated so high not because he plays in the middle but because he is the most talented linebacker in all of football who lead the nation in tackles for the last 2 years and in his first 3 years years in college put up more tackles than anyone in college history. He also added 7 interceptions and 17 passes defended and he is only a junior and is only going to get better.

His freshmen year he played OLB and was second in the NCAA in tackles. He moved inside his sophomore year.His 183 tackles that year was the third most in NCAA history. His 192 this year, the second most ever.

So the reality is that he played OLB and was one of the best at it and did the same thing in the middle.

He not only could start at any of 3 positions but he could back up any of the other linebackers which likely makes hin the most valuable addition we could make not the least.

[Actionman0z]

I think I would take him in a heartbeat at #9. Do not be suprised.

[Cat'sGrowl]

Ah there's the P55 I came to see! I kne he'd rear his head if pressure long enough.

Let's see what do we have here..

Well for starters-we've already established that an OLB doesn't carry much positional value in the early rounds of the draft in the modern NFL. That has been proven. Hence, it gives much merit to the notion that Kuechly's stock is raised in part courtesy of the position he plays. Let me emphasize that I say "in part" as I did the first time, but it is true that I don't expect any less from you than to sensasationalize something and put words in mouth (which, really, only shows you trying to save some face)

Making a statement in an elitist tone as if to force your message into my mind? Yeah we have that too.

See, P55, Kuechly's value isn't higher than anyone elses just because you deem it so. The fact that he's better suited as a Mike (which we've already stated-is a spot on this defense that requires a skill which is an unknown for him) where he doesn't have a spot on this team, and considering that we've already established that moving him outside to a spot that carries low positional value and to where his skills wouldn't be able to achieve his full potential really detracts from his ability to aid to this team- let me emphasize this part as well so you won't simply pull your typical move of throwing it out- in comparison to other positions with great talent that can come in and fill an immediate need.

I just thought I should bring you back down to earth, P55. No animosity here, I've just seen you resort quite often as of late to trying to discredit anyone who doesn't see it your way. Mud-slinging isn't necessary, this was a very civilized argument we were all having until you made your entrance and decided that "Zomg! You don't agree with me! You're confused! You don't know anything!!"

And quite frankly, the fact that you've openly stated that Rivera doesn't see it you way and yet try to accuse others of being confused is rather ironic.

Kuechly is rated so high not because he plays in the middle but because he is the most talented linebacker in all of football who lead the nation in tackles for the last 2 years and in his first 3 years years in college put up more tackles than anyone in college history. He also added 7 interceptions and 17 passes defended and he is only a junior and is only going to get better.

His freshmen year he played OLB and was second in the NCAA in tackles. He moved inside his sophomore year.His 183 tackles that year was the third most in NCAA history. His 192 this year, the second most ever.

So the reality is that he played OLB and was one of the best at it and did the same thing in the middle.

He not only could start at any of 3 positions but he could back up any of the other linebackers which likely makes hin the most valuable addition we could make not the least.

[panthers55]

Ah there's the P55 I came to see! I kne he'd rear his head if pressure long enough.

Let's see what do we have here..

Well for starters-we've already established that an OLB doesn't carry much positional value in the early rounds of the draft in the modern NFL. That has been proven. Hence, it gives much merit to the notion that Kuechly's stock is raised in part courtesy of the position he plays. Let me emphasize that I say "in part" as I did the first time, but it is true that I don't expect any less from you than to sensasationalize something and put words in mouth (which, really, only shows you trying to save some face)

Making a statement in an elitist tone as if to force your message into my mind? Yeah we have that too.

See, P55, Kuechly's value isn't higher than anyone elses just because you deem it so. The fact that he's better suited as a Mike (which we've already stated-is a spot on this defense that requires a skill which is an unknown for him) where he doesn't have a spot on this team, and considering that we've already established that moving him outside to a spot that carries low positional value and to where his skills wouldn't be able to achieve his full potential really detracts from his ability to aid to this team- let me emphasize this part as well so you won't simply pull your typical move of throwing it out- in comparison to other positions with great talent that can come in and fill an immediate need.

I just thought I should bring you back down to earth, P55. No animosity here, I've just seen you resort quite often as of late to trying to discredit anyone who doesn't see it your way. Mud-slinging isn't necessary, this was a very civilized argument we were all having until you made your entrance and decided that "Zomg! You don't agree with me! You're confused! You don't know anything!!"

And quite frankly, the fact that you've openly stated that Rivera doesn't see it you way and

yet try to accuse others of being confused is rather ironic.

I am not going to get in a back and forth with you here for the enjoyment of others. Please feel free to believe anything you want.

If you can't see that when a guy is a concensus top 15 pick, a butkus award winner as best the linebacker in college football had 200 more tackles in 3 years than a guy like Patrick Willis had in 4 and had the same measurables coming out of college as Willis who is an perennial All-pro, that he is worthy of our 9 pick there isn't much to say. I have shown you he has played outside linebacker and was second in the country in tackles, and moved inside and lead the country in tackles 2 years in a row despite little help and team gameplanning against him. In fact last year he had twice as many tackles as anyone else on his team.

I understand your game that the best defense is a good offense and by accusing me of putting you down it deflects the conversation from the real issue which is that it isn't me saying he is great, it is everyone who knows and follows football who says he is great. Feel free to believe whatever you want. I don't care whether you agree with me or not. After all my opinion is just an amalgum of the experts and pundits who believe the same thing. You can believe me, believe them or go your own direction. Freedom of speech gives you the right to say whatever you want regardless of how it resonates with others.

I doubt you will get much agreement for your point of view and saying it over and over doesn't make it true but whatever. So you can stop the whole I can't stand anyone disagreeing with me nonsense because it isn't true. If I respond to your posts it is not you but the content I am responding to. I will work to seperate those two to avoid giving you fuel for your fodder.

The fact that Rivera has publically said he wants to increase the pass rush and that the secondary needs to be shored up could be construed several ways. Maybe he is telling us exactly what he is going to do. Maybe he is using the proverbial smokescreen because unlike last year when we had the number 1 pick, we need to keep folks from knowing which direction we are going to go. Or it could be that he is just keeping his options open. Neither davis or Beason's rehab is complete so things could shift between now and then particularly when free agency begins. But until we have made the pick I don't think you can assume anything.

[Actionman0z]

I am not going to get in a back and forth with you here for the enjoyment of others. Please feel free to believe anything you want.

If you can't see that when a guy is a concensus top 15 pick, a butkus award winner as best the linebacker in college football had 200 more tackles in 3 years than a guy like Patrick Willis had in 4 and had the same measurables coming out of college as Willis who is an perennial All-pro, that he is worthy of our 9 pick there isn't much to say. I have shown you he has played outside linebacker and was second in the country in tackles, and moved inside and lead the country in tackles 2 years in a row despite little help and team gameplanning against him. In fact last year he had twice as many tackles as anyone else on his team.

I understand your game that the best defense is a good offense and by accusing me of putting you down it deflects the conversation from the real issue which is that it isn't me saying he is great, it is everyone who knows and follows football who says he is great. Feel free to believe whatever you want. I don't care whether you agree with me or not. After all my opinion is just an amalgum of the experts and pundits who believe the same thing. You can believe me, believe them or go your own direction. Freedom of speech gives you the right to say whatever you want regardless of how it resonates with others.

I doubt you will get much agreement for your point of view and saying it over and over doesn't make it true but whatever. So you can stop the whole I can't stand anyone disagreeing with me nonsense because it isn't true. If I respond to your posts it is not you but the content I am responding to. I will work to seperate those two to avoid giving you fuel for your fodder.

The fact that Rivera has publically said he wants to increase the pass rush and that the secondary needs to be shored up could be construed several ways. Maybe he is telling us exactly what he is going to do. Maybe he is using the proverbial smokescreen because unlike last year when we had the number 1 pick, we need to keep folks from knowing which direction we are going to go. Or it could be that he is just keeping his options open. Neither davis or Beason's rehab is complete so things could shift between now and then particularly when free agency begins. But until we have made the pick I don't think you can assume anything.

I like what both of you are saying, and enjoy the banter... I think, that in the long run, it comes down to what the coaching staff values. I think that LB regardless of position Weak, Middle, Strong, ILB, OLB... differs draft year to draft year based on crop of players coming out. I think we took TD in the top 15, and we took Dan Morgan in the top 15.. I think that this staff will do well with Hurney and the scout staff to draft whichever player they feel will benefit us the most. I like both points of view here. :mad2:

[Cat'sGrowl]

Not once have I stated that Kuechly isn't a great prospect. Those are words you've places in my mouth time and time again. What I've stated is that the value of the position he would play with us does not warrant the pick when there are other great prospects at positions of need.

Before you continue to accuse me of attacking you further, I'd tread lightly, as you were the instigator of this little scuffle. We were all giving our opinions in calm manner when you began to insist that I had no idea what I was talking about because my opinion differed from yours. You then is the same thing to CRA, and since you accused me of having a lacking of understanding because I don't believe OLB carries much positional value in relation to the DL, it can be inferred that you feel that the majority of the Huddle doesn't have a good understanding of the game, as the "Most Important Positions In A 4-3 Defense" thread would indicate that the majority of Huddlers disagree with your assessment that the OLB position over the Defensive Line.

Additionally, you claim to be basing your own opinion off of experts, as if you are the only one here who does so. We all look to those closer to the game than ourselves for information, and truthfully, this entire ordeal is a tad ironic in itself when you consider there are very few experts claiming that Kuechly is a prime suspect for us? (A statement now seemingly even less likely after Rivera's latest comments)

Once again it boils down to what we discuss the other day- P55 seems to award "validity" to those experts who agree with his sentiments-and while most of us do that to some extent at various points-you're the only one I've seen who tries to act as if you do not.

[Actionman0z]

What I find strange is Ron Rivera's allowance and Fox's lack thereof to allow young guys oppertunities to play, so drafting a DT when we have 4 guys there with 3 years or less in the NFL, does not make sense to me. I do not see any DT that we draft there at #9 making an impact more than any of the guys we have there. If I had to take a guess I would say we are targeting or wanting Coples. However, if that is the case, than that eliminates Hardy, or at best moves him inside at some point. Hardy's problems were not rushing the passer, it was holding the edge against the run, and I do not think drafting a replacement for him at this time is a move that helps this team get better at #9. We'll see though.

[Cat'sGrowl]

I hate mobile devices.

[panthers55]

Not once have I stated that Kuechly isn't a great prospect. Those are words you've places in my mouth time and time again. What I've stated is that the value of the position he would play with us does not warrant the pick when there are other great prospects at positions of need.

Before you continue to accuse me of attacking you further, I'd tread lightly, as you were the instigator of this little scuffle. We were all giving our opinions in calm manner when you began to insist that I had no idea what I was talking about because my opinion differed from yours. You then is the same thing to CRA, and since you accused me of having a lacking of understanding because I don't believe OLB carries much positional value in relation to the DL, it can be inferred that you feel that the majority of the Huddle doesn't have a good understanding of the game, as the "Most Important Positions In A 4-3 Defense" thread would indicate that the majority of Huddlers disagree with your assessment that the OLB position over the Defensive Line.

Additionally, you claim to be basing your own opinion off of experts, as if you are the only one here who does so. We all look to those closer to the game than ourselves for information, and truthfully, this entire ordeal is a tad ironic in itself when you consider there are very few experts claiming that Kuechly is a prime suspect for us? (A statement now seemingly even less likely after Rivera's latest comments)

Once again it boils down to what we discuss the other day- P55 seems to award "validity" to those experts who agree with his sentiments-and while most of us do that to some extent at various points-you're the only one I've seen who tries to act as if you do not.

Who is making this personal and going on the attack?? Hypocrisy at it's finest.:D

[Guest moninghaly]

I hate mobile devices.

for what ?