Speaking of taking plays off

[CRA]

Bleys, you have made your points when it comes to Jake, but that goes back to my overall contention, which is that people seem to be turning a blind eye to Jake's failings because, by default, they believe that he is our best option. What I am saying is that this belief is the safe, en vogue thing to do among the Panthers faithful who deem that they have it all figured out, but there are some of us who believe that the Panthers haven't done all that they can do to look towards the long term success of the organization because of tunnel vision towards the Ragin' Cajun.

Jake is getting old, and quite frankly his act is getting a little bit stale. He really only has one claim to fame, and that's one Super Bowl appearance in an otherwise average career. Many QBs have come and gone while we put our confidence in Jake, as though he was an Elite QB, but he never was. I realize that it's a little simplistic to run off a list (because every team has its perceived annual needs and positions in the draft), but a few quality QBs have been drafted in this league since Jake became our guy. Because I have always been a little skeptical of Delhomme, particularly since he has aged and gotten injured, I feel a little futility every year when I see other teams pulling the trigger on QBs, especially the ones like Joe Flacco (who I thought we should have really made a run at last year).

Some of you talk like it's impossible to make a solid pick at QB in the draft, at least one who can manage the games, force throws into coverage, and make off target throws to an open Steve Smith (who has to stop or come back for a lame duck, or make an acrobatic catch). I don't think that it's impossible or even unlikely to acquire a QB who can do that much. Don't you think that Pat White can do that much? Even if you don't, we have Moore, who already knows our system, and McCown who could at least hold down the fort until we figure out what the hell is going on. If we suck as a result, then we could always make a run at The Golden Calf of Bristol the following year.

It's just a matter of philosophy. All of our prognostications and rantings don't mean a damn thing until we see what guys can do. We already know what we're going to get from Jake, and if you and others are fine with that because Jake is the best guy by default as far as your perception, then fine. I'm not going to sit back like it's all good. This is a forum, and I am going to discuss issues. Like it or not, accepting a QB who has been paid top dollar, but hasn't brought the juice is an issue (particularly when you're discussing extending his contract to provide more cap room). Just because some of you may not see the good in taking a gamble, on a guy that just might be a good replacement for Jake, doesn't make it an awful thing to kick around on the forum. Like my elderly mother-in-law says, "What you can't see will make a whole 'nother world."

Lastly, although this thread is ostensibly about Jake, the purpose of it was to point out the bottom line, which is that even though Peppers is perceived to take plays off, he is an elite DE in the league, where Jake is an average QB in the league, and yet people crap on Pep who has given us better play at his position than Jake has at his, but give Jake a pass (pun intended) because he is our "best" option due to perceived mediocre talent availability this year at QB.

Like I said in another post: Jake gets his share of undeserved love, while Pep gets his share of undeserved hate. When you look at what they have produced on the field at each of their respective positions, which is basically the bottom line, how can you justify hating Pep and loving or being lukewarm about the Jake? I can't see it, but there's a whole 'nother world in Panther Land.

Seriously, you are complaining about Jake and then suggesting we make a run for The Golden Calf of Bristol? :confused: That is beyond comical. Also as far as Pat White goes......this style of QB play simply doesn't work in the NFL. There are rare exceptions but the odds favor Whtie ending up like all the other mobile QBs. Jake isn't an elite QB....but you don't need an elite QB to win. Jake has good chemistry w/ Smitty and has been a very successful QB in Carolina despite the hatred. Jake is what he is......an average QB who has found a great deal of success in Fox's offense. I'm fine w/ Carolina taking there time and trying to find another hidden gem......and that is what Delhomme was/is.

[top dawg]

Seriously, you are complaining about Jake and then suggesting we make a run for The Golden Calf of Bristol? :confused: That is beyond comical. Also as far as Pat White goes......this style of QB play simply doesn't work in the NFL. There are rare exceptions but the odds favor Whtie ending up like all the other mobile QBs. Jake isn't an elite QB....but you don't need an elite QB to win. Jake has good chemistry w/ Smitty and has been a very successful QB in Carolina despite the hatred. Jake is what he is......an average QB who has found a great deal of success in Fox's offense. I'm fine w/ Carolina taking there time and trying to find another hidden gem......and that is what Delhomme was/is.

Jake has been a solid QB for the franchise, whose play is extremely predictable. I wrote a thread this past season (that was probably purged when the site got hacked) about how Jake was worthy to be praised and respected for his accomplishments in Carolina. He earned my respect over the years, even above my skepticism, but all good things must come to an end, especially when solely looking at Jake's performance since he got his big payday. Chock it off to injury, or whatever you want, Jake was really sketchy this past season, and seemed to have retrogressed in his decision making and passing accuracy. And this is sans the post season disaster.

Time for new blood!

As far as odds go in reference to Pat White, what odds? If White doesn't succeed in the NFL, it will be because he can't get the job done (or won't have the opportunity to), just like any other NFL QB hopeful. Mobility, or a lack thereof, isn't really a litmus test for success or failure in the NFL for a quality QB. To suggest otherwise is basically trying to fabricate a theory that can't be supported.

Jake may be a gem, but it ain't diamond. It's more like cubic zirconia. We paid for a diamond, but have received a man-made stone.

Fox and Hurney are damned good salesmen!

[panthers55]

Jake has been a solid QB for the franchise, whose play is extremely predictable. I wrote a thread this past season (that was probably purged when the site got hacked) about how Jake was worthy to be praised and respected for his accomplishments in Carolina. He earned my respect over the years, even above my skepticism, but all good things must come to an end, especially when solely looking at Jake's performance since he got his big payday. Chock it off to injury, or whatever you want, Jake was really sketchy this past season, and seemed to have retrogressed in his decision making and passing accuracy. And this is sans the post season disaster.

Time for new blood!

As far as odds go in reference to Pat White, what odds? If White doesn't succeed in the NFL, it will be because he can't get the job done (or won't have the opportunity to), just like any other NFL QB hopeful. Mobility, or a lack thereof, isn't really a litmus test for success or failure in the NFL for a quality QB. To suggest otherwise is basically trying to fabricate a theory that can't be supported.

Jake may be a gem, but it ain't diamond. It's more like cubic zirconia. We paid for a diamond, but have received a man-made stone.

Fox and Hurney are damned good salesmen!

Speculative and not based on any facts. Jake's numbers this year were not much different than they have been throughout his career. You have no idea what his decisionmaking was this year. Most of the throws that were picked off were either due to a poor pass or were thrown accurately but were bobbled by our receivers and popped up into the defenders arms, not due to poor decisions like throwing into triple coverage. In fully 10 games out of 16 he threw no picks at all. His completion percentage in 2008 was 59.4% and careerwise has been 59.7%. He threw less TDs but we never had two backs who could run in the redzone like Stewart and Williams.

I agree with you that recovery from injury was the biggest reason. However to assume that he will not throw better this year belies the overwhelming history of athletes recovering from Tommy John Surgery.

I can't think of one pitcher who didn't have a big drop off the first year after surgery. And most of them were fully recovered by year 2. He had some horrible games which is consistent with what almost every pitcher says happens. Some days you go out there and you just don't have your stuff. Other days you do.

If he struggles this year we have a veteran and Moore to come in. Someone like Pat White won't see the field as a QB for at least a year likely more. So his new blood won't help Jake or the Panthers anytime soon. So we would have time to find someone or trade for another veteran like we did for McCown. Since White is a project, he won't be of real value for some time and won't be the savior. So it still is resting on Jake for the foreseeable future.

Fox and Hurney obviously know football much better than people on this forum.

[bleys]

Speculative and not based on any facts. Jake's numbers this year were not much different than they have been throughout his career. You have no idea what his decisionmaking was this year. Most of the throws that were picked off were either due to a poor pass or were thrown accurately but were bobbled by our receivers and popped up into the defenders arms, not due to poor decisions like throwing into triple coverage. In fully 10 games out of 16 he threw no picks at all. His completion percentage in 2008 was 59.4% and careerwise has been 59.7%. He threw less TDs but we never had two backs who could run in the redzone like Stewart and Williams.

I agree with you that recovery from injury was the biggest reason. However to assume that he will not throw better this year belies the overwhelming history of athletes recovering from Tommy John Surgery.

I can't think of one pitcher who didn't have a big drop off the first year after surgery. And most of them were fully recovered by year 2. He had some horrible games which is consistent with what almost every pitcher says happens. Some days you go out there and you just don't have your stuff. Other days you do.

If he struggles this year we have a veteran and Moore to come in. Someone like Pat White won't see the field as a QB for at least a year likely more. So his new blood won't help Jake or the Panthers anytime soon. So we would have time to find someone or trade for another veteran like we did for McCown. Since White is a project, he won't be of real value for some time and won't be the savior. So it still is resting on Jake for the foreseeable future.

Fox and Hurney obviously know football much better than people on this forum.

:cheers2:

[frash.exe]

I agree with you that recovery from injury was the biggest reason. However to assume that he will not throw better this year belies the overwhelming history of athletes recovering from Tommy John Surgery.

I can't think of one pitcher who didn't have a big drop off the first year after surgery. And most of them were fully recovered by year 2. He had some horrible games which is consistent with what almost every pitcher says happens. Some days you go out there and you just don't have your stuff. Other days you do.

About the tommy john, I hear you, and it probably played some minor part in his production, but...... Pitchers play how many games out of 162? In a 6 month time span? How many pitches do they make? 60-80 in a game? Compared to Jake throwing 25 times on average for 16 games?

Pitching in a game is obviously more tiring than throwing pass attempts in football considering the fact that we have closers in baseball and not in football. So I don't think Jake had the kind of strain on his arm coming back as the pitchers who were throwing fastballs, changeups, sliders, etc, and all these different kinds of pitches.

[panthers55]

About the tommy john, I hear you, and it probably played some minor part in his production, but...... Pitchers play how many games out of 162? In a 6 month time span? How many pitches do they make? 60-80 in a game? Compared to Jake throwing 25 times on average for 16 games?

Pitching in a game is obviously more tiring than throwing pass attempts in football considering the fact that we have closers in baseball and not in football. So I don't think Jake had the kind of strain on his arm coming back as the pitchers who were throwing fastballs, changeups, sliders, etc, and all these different kinds of pitches.

You are right about pitchers throwing more pitches and the fact that some pitches may put more torque on the elbow. On the other hand a football weighs alot more than a baseball. I really don't have a clue whether the heavier object thrown perhaps 25-40 times a game once a week for 20 weeks puts more or less torque on an elbow than a pitcher who pitches on a 7 day rotation for the same 20 or 30 games throwing a much lighter ball harder. And in football you get hit on your arm regularly by 300 lb linemen while in baseball you don't take any physical abuse like that uness you get hit by a batted ball.

All in all, I expect that both sports but a lot of strain on the elbow and likely account for some of the poor performances. On the other hand which quarterback out there doesn't just stink up a game or two even when they are healthy. I figure this year will telll the tale. We will likely know if he is losing it or not this year. If he plays well then we can chalk up last year to his recovery. If he struggles again we will know it is time to move on.

[top dawg]

Speculative and not based on any facts. Jake's numbers this year were not much different than they have been throughout his career. You have no idea what his decisionmaking was this year. Most of the throws that were picked off were either due to a poor pass or were thrown accurately but were bobbled by our receivers and popped up into the defenders arms, not due to poor decisions like throwing into triple coverage. In fully 10 games out of 16 he threw no picks at all. His completion percentage in 2008 was 59.4% and careerwise has been 59.7%. He threw less TDs but we never had two backs who could run in the redzone like Stewart and Williams.

I agree with you that recovery from injury was the biggest reason. However to assume that he will not throw better this year belies the overwhelming history of athletes recovering from Tommy John Surgery.

I can't think of one pitcher who didn't have a big drop off the first year after surgery. And most of them were fully recovered by year 2. He had some horrible games which is consistent with what almost every pitcher says happens. Some days you go out there and you just don't have your stuff. Other days you do.

If he struggles this year we have a veteran and Moore to come in. Someone like Pat White won't see the field as a QB for at least a year likely more. So his new blood won't help Jake or the Panthers anytime soon. So we would have time to find someone or trade for another veteran like we did for McCown. Since White is a project, he won't be of real value for some time and won't be the savior. So it still is resting on Jake for the foreseeable future.

Fox and Hurney obviously know football much better than people on this forum.

Yes the evaluation of Jake's performance is speculative, and solely based on observation. The only thing that the stats prove is that Jake has been consistently ordinary throughout his career which is basically the bottom line.

If you look at QB ratings (rankings), Jake fell off some last year. In any event, if that's the best that you think that we can do, then great. Jake, by default, is the flavor of the day. Set the bar low (and smash the blood out of your thighs), it's going to be another roller coaster ride in 2009.

If Jake is here, he's going to play. Moore and McCown won't see the light of day.

Fox and Hurney absolutely know more about football than people on this forum, that's why they still haven't extended Jake, and tagged Pep...

[bigskypanthersguy]

Jake may be a gem, but it ain't diamond. It's more like cubic zirconia. We paid for a diamond, but have received a man-made stone.

Fox and Hurney are damned good salesmen!

The gem/diamond/cubic zirconia line is the best oneliner I've ever read here.

[Fireball77]

So I don't think Jake had the kind of strain on his arm coming back as the pitchers who were throwing fastballs, changeups, sliders, etc, and all these different kinds of pitches.

I don't know if arm strain alone is the whole reason guys have a rough time coming back. It has been said that it affects accuracy in pitchers. I wouldn't think that is because of strain, but rather the stretching and breaking in of the new UCL. Any time something is broken and repaired it's going to take time to get used to the fix and it isn't going to be "the same". I know that when I shattered my right radius, it took years for it to stop hurting and I will never have 100% range of motion, etc. the way I had before. I know this isn't the same thing, just an example of what I am talking about. It took me years even to feel ok after working on a computer every day and I worked in an office, I was not an athlete whose job it is to perform physically. Granted they have better medical resources than I did, but I still think there are parallels.

Part of it may also be the UN-doing of any compensation the player may have been doing in his throwing motion. I don't know if pitchers even play at all once that ligament starts to go, but Jake had been playing with things wrong with his arm for 2 years prior to the UCL blowing out, and the ligament had been fraying for a bit which he had been compensating for in his throwing mechanics (which weren't very orthodox to begin with).

As P55 said, we shall see which way this goes this next season. Either way they do want to start looking at the future though.

[CRA]

As far as odds go in reference to Pat White, what odds? If White doesn't succeed in the NFL, it will be because he can't get the job done (or won't have the opportunity to), just like any other NFL QB hopeful. Mobility, or a lack thereof, isn't really a litmus test for success or failure in the NFL for a quality QB. To suggest otherwise is basically trying to fabricate a theory that can't be supported.

Jake may be a gem, but it ain't diamond. It's more like cubic zirconia. We paid for a diamond, but have received a man-made stone.

Fox and Hurney are damned good salesmen!

Sure it is to some degree.....the numbers are overwhelming. Successful mobile QBs in college just don't translate well into the NFL. You can count the ones who have turned into legit NFL starters on one hand in the last 15years.

Jake was a gem. He was just some random dude who came into that Jaguars game and became a successful starter on this team for years. Granted it wasn't a Tom Brady scenario but Jake was definately a diamond that Fox lucked out on.

[DaveThePanther2008]

I believe we have who we want available when Jake leaves. I think the Franchise is right where they want to be at QB. I think we have the right backups who will step up when it is time.

Jake has had great games and bad games. It is like any professional. Sometimes they perform like Gods and sometimes they don't.

Do you think Doc Gooden, or Roger Clemens or Nolan Ryan never got shelled? Did the manager pulled them from the rotation because of a bad outing or two.

Think Michael Jordan going 8-35 from the field means they should trade him. David Robinson having 2 rebounds and 8 points in a loss means they should have dumped him. How about Koby having 8 turnovers. He's a scrub lets get MJ to come out of retirement.

If you have ever played ANY sport whether in little league right on up to professional, are you telling me you NEVER had a bad game. A Bad Week, even a bad season. Did you quit, did your teammates ask you to quit?

If Jake has multiple back to back outings....He is done like Thanksgiving day Turkey and it is time to being in the next man to run the show. Hopefully, he fills the shoes Jake left because they will be big shoes to fill.

Wanna replace Jake. Let him show us on the field he is done. Don't base it on ONE BAD PLAYOFF GAME.

Go Panthers

[mantal]

Are you guys just trying to out-write each other?

[panthers55]

Yes the evaluation of Jake's performance is speculative, and solely based on observation. The only thing that the stats prove is that Jake has been consistently ordinary throughout his career which is basically the bottom line.

If you look at QB ratings (rankings), Jake fell off some last year. In any event, if that's the best that you think that we can do, then great. Jake, by default, is the flavor of the day. Set the bar low (and smash the blood out of your thighs), it's going to be another roller coaster ride in 2009.

If Jake is here, he's going to play. Moore and McCown won't see the light of day.

Fox and Hurney absolutely know more about football than people on this forum, that's why they still haven't extended Jake, and tagged Pep...

Being the 15-20th best quarterback in the NFL on a team that values running above passing is pretty darn good. For a guy who hasn't really had more than 1 go to receiver through most of his career and has not had a great running game for 4 out of his 6 years in the league he has done better than most. When we had a good running game to complement his passing (2003 and 2008) his record was 23-9 in the regular season.

Truth is that the stats that really count are how many games do you win and Jake has good numbers there. It isn't like NE for example where they have a great system and can plug anyone into the system. Or Pittsburgh where Roethlisburger had no better numbers than Jake in the regular season but won a Super Bowl largly on a defense that carried him until he finally got hot in the playoffs.

He is never going to be a Drew Brees or a Tom Brady because our system isn't built that way. We have never had an elite quarterback in our frnachise history and may not no matter who we draft. If they were so easy to find every team would have one.

I disagree that he isn't the real deal and think he has been a diamond for us. After all he was in good company last year. Here is a guy recovering from Tommy John surgery who has a passer rating very similar to Cutler and better than Roethlisburger for example who are both considered 2 franchise quarterbacks.

Eli Manning 14th, Donovan McNabb 14th, Cutler 16th, Trent Edwards, 17th, Delhomme 18th, Roethlisburger 24th, etc.

I guess that those teams should be calling for their quarterbacks to get replaced as well, huh??

[top dawg]

Wanna replace Jake. Let him show us on the field he is done. Don't base it on ONE BAD PLAYOFF GAME.

Well said. I, indeed, read your entire post, but I think the above section kind of gets down to the bottom line of what you're saying. Good points, without bordering on the irrational.

To kind of clarify, I am not saying that we should replace Jake based on one bad game. I think that Jake has had a good career that has been well suited for the level of expectations by the FO and fans, alike. I just believe that it is time to raise the bar, really study all the options, and at least think about the repercussions of extending a 34year old QB who arguably will never get us over the hump.

If you study this forum in regards to expectations for 2009, many people have insinuated that we won't even get to the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl. And, some say we will take an early exit even if we do end up in the playoffs as a wildcard. In the same breath they say that Jake is our best option.

So, when you maneuver through all the B.S., what they have said is Jake is our best option to have a so-so year.

What I am saying is that if a person believes this then why speak so loudly against other options, like letting Moore or McCown or perhaps someone else) lead us to our so-so destiny, have a general attitude of impossibility or futility while accepting Jake by default, and chide and patronize others behind a facade of football knowledge superiority for even entertaining the idea on a forum?

And, on a side note, to top off all the signifying in reference to Jake, these same people who fancy themselves as football experts whine about Pep taking plays off, Pep's money, Pep's contract, Pep's business, etc. and crap on him for much better play at his position than Delhomme ever had at his.

It's all a bunch of B.S.