Speaking of taking plays off

[SloppyJoe]

@ Nu Guns

So you would prefer a quarterback that couldn't come back from ANY sort of deficit? What is it that you are saying? A comeback is a comeback!

Edit: responded before the edit, so now I get what you are saying. But still, isn't that like looking the gift horse in the mouth? We had a guy who repeatedly brought us back from behind to win games, and you're upset because the comebacks weren't big enough? Even Manning can't do -24 consistently.

[frash.exe]

Well I guess I look at it a bit differently. I think QB is the single hardest position to get right for many reasons, one of which is the difficulty in having resources enough to develop them, and there are far more failures than successes. I think it involves a bit of luck too. Who would you consider proficient in developing QBs, or what teams/coaches are a few of your models for what you would like to see?

.

Besides the usual suspects (NE, Indy(?)) Shanahan in Denver was always able to field decent QB play. Between Cutler and Elway they had Plummer and Griese, who played decent. Bill Parcells too. Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren, Tom Coughlin. Some new guys who have had some great QB play going on in their teams are Mike Tomlin and Mike McCarthy.

[Fireball77]

Dont quote me either because I alsodont have the numbers in front of me, but I doubt all those come backs were NFL classics. Its not we were down by 20 or more points. If we are down by more 14 or more in the 4th, and have to totally rely on our passing game....people are leav ing the stadium

I don't think you are being really fair here, dude. A 4th Q comeback is a 4th Q comeback. How many teams come back from 14 down in the 4th? Or 20 points total? Yeah, not many. And I would venture to say that quite a few fans are gonna leave any stadium if their team is down 14-20 in the 4th. That TB- Colts game was an unprecedented comeback. Brady has never done that so clearly he is inferior also?

Here's the 2008 4th q comebacks:

Week 1 vs SD: last drive with 2:27 left to play, not ONE run play was called, it was all passes. And "scarily" enough, Jake was calling the plays as per usual in any late game come from behind situation. I would call that "totally relying on the pass game to come from behind" but maybe that's just me.

Week 2 4th Q drive to take the lead vs Bears with 6:46 left to play: 3 pass plays for 43 yards, two run plays for 12 yards. 1 yd run for the td led to by a clutch throw and a nice catch by King.

Week 13 vs GB, 1:57 left in the game-one 54 yd pass (yes it was a great catch) first then a 1 yd run

Against NO in week 17,3:11 left in the 4th: from their own 18 yd line, 47 yds passing, started the drive with a 39 yard pass & had 10 yards rushing total.

But since the DEFENSE blew a 20 point LEAD the offense gave them, I guess that doesn't count as a "real" comeback either?

[Jangler]

We could draft the second coming of Joe Montana in the next couple of years and somebody will find something about him to complain about.

[Fireball77]

Besides the usual suspects (NE, Indy(?)) Shanahan in Denver was always able to field decent QB play. Between Cutler and Elway they had Plummer and Griese, who played decent. Bill Parcells too. Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren, Tom Coughlin. Some new guys who have had some great QB play going on in their teams are Mike Tomlin and Mike McCarthy.

Shanny is a good offensive coach and playcaller. I agree he made Plummer better than he ever was in AZ, but he inherited Elway. Coughlin? You mean in NY or his whole career? Tomlin I don't think has much to do with the offense. McCarthy I will give you ...he's a great QB coach, IMO. He made even Brooks look passable at times. Holmie SOMEWHAT tamed Favre which is almost impossible (McCarthy did it too in 2007). I agree that Holmie is a good coach of QBs. Parcells, though defensive minded, is a very good motivator and talent finder, that's true. Most of the guys you mention are very good offensive minds/playcallers/QB coaches as well as HCs. I think McDaniels is a great QB coach and a pretty good playcaller so I expect Orton to be pretty effective. Part of this is knowing what you want and value in a QB too. Since Carolina does not have a HC who is offensive minded, I wouldn't expect them to be as good at it, honestly. Now, does that mean it can't or shouldn't be done? Nope, just means that they have to have a good OC/QB coach who can evaluate and coach QBs and who's on the same page with the talent evaluators.Where I don't think Fox has been as good is having/finding really good assistant coaches. I don't think it's out of the question that they could have that with the guys they have now (Davidson and Scherer). Time will tell.

[Fireball77]

We could draft the second coming of Joe Montana in the next couple of years and somebody will find something about him to complain about.

I don't like blondes.

He's too short.

He's been divorced twice.

Eff him!!!! lol

[rayzor]

he focused on rice too much.

[Nu Guns]

I don't think you are being really fair here, dude. A 4th Q comeback is a 4th Q comeback. How many teams come back from 14 down in the 4th? Or 20 points total? Yeah, not many. And I would venture to say that quite a few fans are gonna leave any stadium if their team is down 14-20 in the 4th. That TB- Colts game was an unprecedented comeback. Brady has never done that so clearly he is inferior also?

Here's the 2008 4th q comebacks:

Week 1 vs SD: last drive with 2:27 left to play, not ONE run play was called, it was all passes. And "scarily" enough, Jake was calling the plays as per usual in any late game come from behind situation. I would call that "totally relying on the pass game to come from behind" but maybe that's just me.

Week 2 4th Q drive to take the lead vs Bears with 6:46 left to play: 3 pass plays for 43 yards, two run plays for 12 yards. 1 yd run for the td led to by a clutch throw and a nice catch by King.

Week 13 vs GB, 1:57 left in the game-one 54 yd pass (yes it was a great catch) first then a 1 yd run

Against NO in week 17,3:11 left in the 4th: from their own 18 yd line, 47 yds passing, started the drive with a 39 yard pass & had 10 yards rushing total.

But since the DEFENSE blew a 20 point LEAD the offense gave them, I guess that doesn't count as a "real" comeback either?

Your right fireball, I am not disputing him in those games.

But the premise that hes a top QB because he leads the NFL in most come backs since 02 or whatever is misleading. To then throw in Manning/Brady to that point is not justified.

The whole point of saying that is like "see even Manning or Brady havent done that". Jake is not the worst QB in league by any stretch....but I will not toot his horn that he is a top 10 because he is not.

[frash.exe]

Shanny is a good offensive coach and playcaller. I agree he made Plummer better than he ever was in AZ, but he inherited Elway. Coughlin? You mean in NY or his whole career? Tomlin I don't think has much to do with the offense. McCarthy I will give you ...he's a great QB coach, IMO. He made even Brooks look passable at times. Holmie SOMEWHAT tamed Favre which is almost impossible (McCarthy did it too in 2007). I agree that Holmie is a good coach of QBs. Parcells, though defensive minded, is a very good motivator and talent finder, that's true. Most of the guys you mention are very good offensive minds/playcallers/QB coaches as well as HCs. I think McDaniels is a great QB coach and a pretty good playcaller so I expect Orton to be pretty effective. Part of this is knowing what you want and value in a QB too. Since Carolina does not have a HC who is offensive minded, I wouldn't expect them to be as good at it, honestly. Now, does that mean it can't or shouldn't be done? Nope, just means that they have to have a good OC/QB coach who can evaluate and coach QBs and who's on the same page with the talent evaluators.Where I don't think Fox has been as good is having/finding really good assistant coaches. I don't think it's out of the question that they could have that with the guys they have now (Davidson and Scherer). Time will tell.

Coughlin had Brunell for 8 years in Jacksonville where his worst passer rating was an 82. Then he had Warner in NY his first year, a QB whom regressed the past two years in St Louis where they were obviously pushing him out so Bulger could come in. Then he developed Eli, who's a respectable QB in his own right and played very good in the playoffs during their superbowl run.

some of it probably has a little to do with input. I doubt they listened a whole lot to McCoy, or maybe he didn't have the gumption to speak up if he was scouting a player he thought he could work with. If Scherer sees something in one of these prospects he has more of a reputation I guess and they might listen to him more than they did McCoy as a result.

Kind of weird but do you notice since Jeff Davidson walked in they've spent 2/3 of their first rounders and both of their second rounders on offensive players?

[Brandon]

Kind of weird but do you notice since Jeff Davidson walked in they've spent 2/3 of their first rounders and both of their second rounders on offensive players?

Kalil and DJ were definitely BPA picks, but it was clear after 2007 we wanted to get back to running the ball so it came as no shock when we picked up Stewart/Otah. It has a lot less to do with Davidson than it does our drafting and football philosophy.

[Fireball77]

he focused on rice too much.

His most famous pass was a total bailout by his WR!!!!111!!!

Your right fireball, I am not disputing him in those games.

But the premise that hes a top QB because he leads the NFL in most come backs since 02 or whatever is misleading. To then throw in Manning/Brady to that point is not justified.

The whole point of saying that is like "see even Manning or Brady havent done that". Jake is not the worst QB in league by any stretch....but I will not toot his horn that he is a top 10 because he is not.

I don't think that poster was trying to say Jake is elite or top 10 because I didn't see him saying that. I don't think any of us think he's elite. I think the point is that he is more good for the team than some may believe and that is why he is the QB. It isn't loyalty or whatever. The day I think a HC is so in love with one player that he abdicates his responsibility to the football T-E-A-M (which is what a lot of people say about Fox vis a vis Jake)is the day I will want him gone. Fox would be absolutely nuts to keep him if he has lost the lockerroom because once a QB does that he is likely DONE. I haven't heard even one credible (leaving out the Pep rumor of course) inkling of that being the case. All I have heard is enthusiastic support for him from his teammates.

Coughlin had Brunell for 8 years in Jacksonville where his worst passer rating was an 82. Then he had Warner in NY his first year, a QB whom regressed the past two years in St Louis where they were obviously pushing him out so Bulger could come in. Then he developed Eli, who's a respectable QB in his own right and played very good in the playoffs during their superbowl run.

I think Warner's thumb problem and the subsequent struggles due to it was a huge reason he got ousted in St Louis. I actually give Whiz a ton of credit for Warner's resurgence because he was great all year and really cut down on the fumbles minus that one bad game vs the NYJ (a problem he still had in NY). I honestly don't know how much Coughlin has had to do with Eli's career. He has never been the playcaller or a QB coach as far as I know. Anything Eli has developed is probably more Gilbride related. You may know a whole ton more than I do on that topic though since you live in the area.

some of it probably has a little to do with input. I doubt they listened a whole lot to McCoy, or maybe he didn't have the gumption to speak up if he was scouting a player he thought he could work with. If Scherer sees something in one of these prospects he has more of a reputation I guess and they might listen to him more than they did McCoy as a result.

Kind of weird but do you notice since Jeff Davidson walked in they've spent 2/3 of their first rounders and both of their second rounders on offensive players?

I don't know what to think of McCoy, honestly. Even if Orton does well in Denver, I will probably credit McDaniels more since I KNOW he's a good QB coach.

I had heard enough rumblings about Henning having input into the players on the OL that I do believe that Davidson is having input, yes. It's funny, Mike Lombardi just wrote an article recently on NFP partly about Henning and how Ronnie Brown is so ill-suited for his offense and that's why they had to do the Wildcat ish. Look at what was done to the OL before and after Davidson and tell me there's not a huge difference in the type of player they are getting. Now I am sure a bit has to do with the scouting change as well, but not all of it.

[top dawg]

Bleys, you have made your points when it comes to Jake, but that goes back to my overall contention, which is that people seem to be turning a blind eye to Jake's failings because, by default, they believe that he is our best option. What I am saying is that this belief is the safe, en vogue thing to do among the Panthers faithful who deem that they have it all figured out, but there are some of us who believe that the Panthers haven't done all that they can do to look towards the long term success of the organization because of tunnel vision towards the Ragin' Cajun.

Jake is getting old, and quite frankly his act is getting a little bit stale. He really only has one claim to fame, and that's one Super Bowl appearance in an otherwise average career. Many QBs have come and gone while we put our confidence in Jake, as though he was an Elite QB, but he never was. I realize that it's a little simplistic to run off a list (because every team has its perceived annual needs and positions in the draft), but a few quality QBs have been drafted in this league since Jake became our guy. Because I have always been a little skeptical of Delhomme, particularly since he has aged and gotten injured, I feel a little futility every year when I see other teams pulling the trigger on QBs, especially the ones like Joe Flacco (who I thought we should have really made a run at last year).

Some of you talk like it's impossible to make a solid pick at QB in the draft, at least one who can manage the games, force throws into coverage, and make off target throws to an open Steve Smith (who has to stop or come back for a lame duck, or make an acrobatic catch). I don't think that it's impossible or even unlikely to acquire a QB who can do that much. Don't you think that Pat White can do that much? Even if you don't, we have Moore, who already knows our system, and McCown who could at least hold down the fort until we figure out what the hell is going on. If we suck as a result, then we could always make a run at The Golden Calf of Bristol the following year.

It's just a matter of philosophy. All of our prognostications and rantings don't mean a damn thing until we see what guys can do. We already know what we're going to get from Jake, and if you and others are fine with that because Jake is the best guy by default as far as your perception, then fine. I'm not going to sit back like it's all good. This is a forum, and I am going to discuss issues. Like it or not, accepting a QB who has been paid top dollar, but hasn't brought the juice is an issue (particularly when you're discussing extending his contract to provide more cap room). Just because some of you may not see the good in taking a gamble, on a guy that just might be a good replacement for Jake, doesn't make it an awful thing to kick around on the forum. Like my elderly mother-in-law says, "What you can't see will make a whole 'nother world."

Lastly, although this thread is ostensibly about Jake, the purpose of it was to point out the bottom line, which is that even though Peppers is perceived to take plays off, he is an elite DE in the league, where Jake is an average QB in the league, and yet people crap on Pep who has given us better play at his position than Jake has at his, but give Jake a pass (pun intended) because he is our "best" option due to perceived mediocre talent availability this year at QB.

Like I said in another post: Jake gets his share of undeserved love, while Pep gets his share of undeserved hate. When you look at what they have produced on the field at each of their respective positions, which is basically the bottom line, how can you justify hating Pep and loving or being lukewarm about the Jake? I can't see it, but there's a whole 'nother world in Panther Land.

[Fireball77]

Expectations re: talent & dollars (for me). I don't hate Pep though.

[Mr. Scot]

Bleys, you have made your points when it comes to Jake, but that goes back to my overall contention, which is that people seem to be turning a blind eye to Jake's failings because, by default, they believe that he is our best option. What I am saying is that this belief is the safe, en vogue thing to do among the Panthers faithful who deem that they have it all figured out, but there are some of us who believe that the Panthers haven't done all that they can do to look towards the long term success of the organization because of tunnel vision towards the Ragin' Cajun.

Jake is getting old, and quite frankly his act is getting a little bit stale. He really only has one claim to fame, and that's one Super Bowl appearance in an otherwise average career. Many QBs have come and gone while we put our confidence in Jake, as though he was an Elite QB, but he never was. I realize that it's a little simplistic to run off a list (because every team has its perceived annual needs and positions in the draft), but a few quality QBs have been drafted in this league since Jake became our guy. Because I have always been a little skeptical of Delhomme, particularly since he has aged and gotten injured, I feel a little futility every year when I see other teams pulling the trigger on QBs, especially the ones like Joe Flacco (who I thought we should have really made a run at last year).

Some of you talk like it's impossible to make a solid pick at QB in the draft, at least one who can manage the games, force throws into coverage, and make off target throws to an open Steve Smith (who has to stop or come back for a lame duck, or make an acrobatic catch). I don't think that it's impossible or even unlikely to acquire a QB who can do that much. Don't you think that Pat White can do that much? Even if you don't, we have Moore, who already knows our system, and McCown who could at least hold down the fort until we figure out what the hell is going on. If we suck as a result, then we could always make a run at The Golden Calf of Bristol the following year.

It's just a matter of philosophy. All of our prognostications and rantings don't mean a damn thing until we see what guys can do. We already know what we're going to get from Jake, and if you and others are fine with that because Jake is the best guy by default as far as your perception, then fine. I'm not going to sit back like it's all good. This is a forum, and I am going to discuss issues. Like it or not, accepting a QB who has been paid top dollar, but hasn't brought the juice is an issue (particularly when you're discussing extending his contract to provide more cap room). Just because some of you may not see the good in taking a gamble, on a guy that just might be a good replacement for Jake, doesn't make it an awful thing to kick around on the forum. Like my elderly mother-in-law says, "What you can't see will make a whole 'nother world."

Lastly, although this thread is ostensibly about Jake, the purpose of it was to point out the bottom line, which is that even though Peppers is perceived to take plays off, he is an elite DE in the league, where Jake is an average QB in the league, and yet people crap on Pep who has given us better play at his position than Jake has at his, but give Jake a pass (pun intended) because he is our "best" option due to perceived mediocre talent availability this year at QB.

Like I said in another post: Jake gets his share of undeserved love, while Pep gets his share of undeserved hate. When you look at what they have produced on the field at each of their respective positions, which is basically the bottom line, how can you justify hating Pep and loving or being lukewarm about the Jake? I can't see it, but there's a whole 'nother world in Panther Land.

You're really reaching here to justify a silly premise.