Tagging Julius Peppers

[jramsey4]

B.

But imagine if Hurney can pull off a miracle and get a 1st (or maybe even 2). Then it would be all worth it. That or if Peppers decides he likes the new D coor. and decides to stay (that would be cool with me). If this continues until camp or god forbid the regular season he has probably single handily ruin our chances of having a top 10 defense and probably missing the playoffs. We have almost no depth on either line. Lets face it if we lose just one we could be in serious (I already miss Hangartner).

[carolinarolls]

B.

But imagine if Hurney can pull off a miracle and get a 1st (or maybe even 2). Then it would be all worth it. That or if Peppers decides he likes the new D coor. and decides to stay (that would be cool with me). If this continues until camp or god forbid the regular season he has probably single handily ruin our chances of having a top 10 defense and probably missing the playoffs. We have almost no depth on either line. Lets face it if we lose just one we could be in serious (I already miss Hangartner).

I think we are all hoping for that miracle jramsey4. It's the only way to salvage this debacle and we can only hope that what we (hypothetically) get is beneficial. Many people are of the belief that anything is better than nothing. I'm not so sure when you factor how long this has taken and the unknown that might have happened if we had cap space to play with.

I keep hearing "high stakes poker" being tossed around and this spring we have been so restricted we couldn't even bluff at a pot much less up the ante or make a run at somebody...whether we really wanted them or not.

[jramsey4]

Its kinda mixed feelings with Peppers. Heres a guy who has occasionally been attacked on his motor and passion for the game. I want a guy to give it his all on every down. And yet statistically he is probably top 3 or 4 in sacks in his career (out of current players). Consistently the guy gets double digit sacks a season (except for 07). He has been the face of the franchise for his entire career. He is probably the most gifted athlete in the NFL and because of this he has massive potential (even in his late 20's). But doesn't it seem like that's all you here about him is potential. IMO no player is worth over 13% of a 53-man roster team(for those of you not wanting to do the math that's almost 7 times the average of 53 players), especially not when its not a QB (even then). And lets face it I especially don't want a guy on my team who doesn't want to be there. I say if we can even just get one 1st or even 2 2nds I would say see you later Pep it's been fun.

[carolinarolls]

Its kinda mixed feelings with Peppers. Heres a guy who has occasionally been attacked on his motor and passion for the game. I want a guy to give it his all on every down. And yet statistically he is probably top 3 or 4 in sacks in his career (out of current players). Consistently the guy gets double digit sacks a season (except for 07). He has been the face of the franchise for his entire career. He is probably the most gifted athlete in the NFL and because of this he has massive potential (even in his late 20's). But doesn't it seem like that's all you here about him is potential. IMO no player is worth over 13% of a 53-man roster team(for those of you not wanting to do the math that's almost 7 times the average of 53 players), especially not when its not a QB (even then). And lets face it I especially don't want a guy on my team who doesn't want to be there. I say if we can even just get one 1st or even 2 2nds I would say see you later Pep it's been fun.

I have already said that and I like the guy. I'm not bitter. I think there is too much emotion surrounding this on both sides. Peppers is most likely disappointed and hurney is being a dick under the guise of "whats best for the team".

[jramsey4]

I have already said that and I like the guy. I'm not bitter. I think there is too much emotion surrounding this on both sides. Peppers is most likely disappointed and hurney is being a dick under the guise of "whats best for the team".

I was just making a statement it wasn't intended at you. And I think Hurney just wants to get something out of the guy and not lose him for nothing. I mean when you buy a new car and drive it for 15 years and want to get rid of it you don't just give it away. Same thing here there's still some equity left in Pep. Sorry had to do it.

[monstercat]

How will it be a miracle if they get a good deal for Peppers? Is it so hard to believe that another team would be willing to give up a couple of picks for a guy who had 14 1/2 sacks last year? I seriously doubt that any DE or OLB in this draft will have that kind of production as a rookie.

[jramsey4]

How will it be a miracle if they get a good deal for Peppers? Is it so hard to believe that another team would be willing to give up a couple of picks for a guy who had 14 1/2 sacks last year? I seriously doubt that any DE or OLB in this draft will have that kind of production as a rookie.

To many knocks on the guy. He's in his late 20's. His lack of desire and motivation has been called out to many times in the Media. And oh yeah this whole stink he has created. But still if I was another GM I would be ringing that phone off the hook.

[bleys]

OK I do not KNOW that this is the wrong decision. I thought it would be bad before he was tagged and it is still my opinion that letting him walk was the lesser of two evils but nobody knows for sure and even when a deal shakes out or Peppers suits up as a Panther, nothing will be definitive as the unknown possibilities with the alternative are mere speculation and opinion.

My basis is that his perceived and arguably negative baggage coupled with his desire to leave and try something else prohibits us from getting anything done efficiently and therefore rules us out of other deals that may or may not have presented themselves.

We chose the unknown over the unknown.

I did not think that this was up for debate. I thought it was understood that he wanted to go he just wanted to go under his terms and not be exposed as a crybaby when we chose to ship him to a non contender and he would be forced to "block a trade".

it seems to me that he(?) has taken every road to preserve his positive image to everyone except panther fans and staff. This tells me that he is pretty set on getting out of Charlotte.

You basis comes from this notion that Peppers definitely wants out, and at one point, I would say that's true. But since then, and what you and others keep ignoring are statements from teammates that say this SITUATION is being blown out of proportion by the media (and most likely his agent to see whats out there) and that Peppers isn't exactly sold on leaving the team (in other words, he's reconsidering his past statements that he wants to leave).

So... Are you going to rebuttal with "it's teammates talking".. And if so (pardon me if I'm assuming too much here based on all the posts you have made) then are you saying that his agent is more of an authority over his teammates?

I'm just curious...

As easily as you can say his agent is an authority, I can rebuttal with his agent is obviously a moron and is over his head. (I'm sure we aren't going to disagree there) On top of that, his agent is going to make statements to try to set Pep up with a better position in the matter (which has backfired completely).

If I understand that right, then I disagree completely. His teammates have nothing invested in Pep staying or going as much as his agent does.

With all of that said, I have to also disagree with you when you said...

I'm not so sure when you factor how long this has taken and the unknown that might have happened if we had cap space to play with.

I keep hearing "high stakes poker" being tossed around and this spring we have been so restricted we couldn't even bluff at a pot much less up the ante or make a run at somebody...whether we really wanted them or not.

I disagree because you are under the impression Pep ONLY wants to leave and nothing will change his mind (we addressed that above) and because of this Hurney has no power to get rid of Pep.

However, we have heard NOTHING from Hurney other than (and let me paraphrase) "We intend to have Pep back next year. If another team wants Pep, then under the CBA, they will have to cough up two 1st round draft picks"

The bargaining power is rather simple... When you don't intend to get rid of Pep, then you have all the bargaining power in the world. How do you (another team) have the upper hand when the other team (Panthers) don't want to trade a guy. When you don't want to sell you car, how do I have the upper hand in any kind of discussion to take your car away from you?

Perhaps this is why you bring up the cap? If there was anyone worth spending $50 mil on, then we would be screwed by this cap. Sure, we are restricted. There is no doubt about that. We weren't going to sign a Haynesworth (and if we were, we would have let Pep walk and signed him with that dough).

And this is what gets me, everyone says we have no cap room... We were roughly 10mil under the cap after the playoffs (beginning of the offseason) and then we cut a few players/others went to other teams (they would have left anyhow, they wanted to start), so therefore, we have much more cap room than before the offseason.

How we are so restricted we can't take a poo without checking the records is beyond me... We have money to sign our draft picks... No issue there.

The FA class straight up sucks and unless you want to throw money out the door just to bring someone in, then please outline a better solution then the one our FO is taking?

Anyhow, these are my thoughts. This is how I have followed the offseason. Perhaps I'm terribly wrong, but it feels pretty right to me. Adding up all those factors, I'm not quite sure what the big issue is...

Let the teams fight over it on draft day... Because expecting this to be over a few weeks into the offseason is ludicrous. If you expected that, then retool your expectations, because I see this going much longer if nothing is done by draft. As I have laid out, I see no reason for our FO to be freaking out like most of us are.

Hurney is not an idiot, regardless how much you think so. He may not be the greatest GM in the world, but I think he's a damn fine one.

Every year, year after year, we freak out over something Hurney is doing or not doing. And year after year, you sort of find out he's not lost all his marbles. (remember freaking out over Beason? Remember how bad of a character he was going to have becuase he *gasp* held out? Seems to me he's one our highest character guys. I bring all this up to remind us all, it's okay to chill out and let the FO do their job.)

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Sorry this is so long... I figured I would finally lay out my thoughts in the order of how this has been/is playing out.

also, don't take this as being too aggressive of a post. =P

[carolinarolls]

I was just making a statement it wasn't intended at you. And I think Hurney just wants to get something out of the guy and not lose him for nothing. I mean when you buy a new car and drive it for 15 years and want to get rid of it you don't just give it away. Same thing here there's still some equity left in Pep. Sorry had to do it.

I wasn't getting aggressive. I was just stating that I have already accepted him being gone and I'm not bitter about it. There is just as much baggage around him as there is hype right now and when you factor in that he wants to change positions and schemes it's an iffy prospect. Marty has balls of solid rock or is just plain stupid. I would have cut the guy loose and chalked a spring in FA with a few bucks in my pocket as a win.

Nothing good can come of this now. And if it does it will shcok me in spite of how talented of a player I think JP is.

[carolinarolls]

You basis comes from this notion that Peppers definitely wants out, and at one point, I would say that's true. But since then, and what you and others keep ignoring are statements from teammates that say this SITUATION is being blown out of proportion by the media (and most likely his agent to see whats out there) and that Peppers isn't exactly sold on leaving the team (in other words, he's reconsidering his past statements that he wants to leave).

So... Are you going to rebuttal with "it's teammates talking".. And if so (pardon me if I'm assuming too much here based on all the posts you have made) then are you saying that his agent is more of an authority over his teammates?

I'm just curious...

As easily as you can say his agent is an authority, I can rebuttal with his agent is obviously a moron and is over his head. (I'm sure we aren't going to disagree there) On top of that, his agent is going to make statements to try to set Pep up with a better position in the matter (which has backfired completely).

If I understand that right, then I disagree completely. His teammates have nothing invested in Pep staying or going as much as his agent does.

With all of that said, I have to also disagree with you when you said...

I disagree because you are under the impression Pep ONLY wants to leave and nothing will change his mind (we addressed that above) and because of this Hurney has no power to get rid of Pep.

However, we have heard NOTHING from Hurney other than (and let me paraphrase) "We intend to have Pep back next year. If another team wants Pep, then under the CBA, they will have to cough up two 1st round draft picks"

The bargaining power is rather simple... When you don't intend to get rid of Pep, then you have all the bargaining power in the world. How do you (another team) have the upper hand when the other team (Panthers) don't want to trade a guy. When you don't want to sell you car, how do I have the upper hand in any kind of discussion to take your car away from you?

Perhaps this is why you bring up the cap? If there was anyone worth spending $50 mil on, then we would be screwed by this cap. Sure, we are restricted. There is no doubt about that. We weren't going to sign a Haynesworth (and if we were, we would have let Pep walk and signed him with that dough).

And this is what gets me, everyone says we have no cap room... We were roughly 10mil under the cap after the playoffs (beginning of the offseason) and then we cut a few players/others went to other teams (they would have left anyhow, they wanted to start), so therefore, we have much more cap room than before the offseason.

How we are so restricted we can't take a poo without checking the records is beyond me... We have money to sign our draft picks... No issue there.

Anyhow, these are my thoughts. This is how I have followed the offseason. Perhaps I'm terribly wrong, but it feels pretty right to me. Adding up all those factors, I'm not quite sure what the big issue is...

Let the teams fight over it on draft day... Because expecting this to be over a few weeks into the offseason is ludicrous. If you expected that, then retool your expectations, because I see this going much longer if nothing is done by draft. As I have laid out, I see no reason for our FO to be freaking out like most of us are.

Hurney is not an idiot, regardless how much you think so. He may not be the greatest GM in the world, but I think he's a damn fine one.

Every year, year after year, we freak out over something Hurney is doing or not doing. And year after year, you sort of find out he's not lost all his marbles. (remember freaking out over Beason? Remember how bad of a character he was going to have becuase he *gasp* held out? Seems to me he's one our highest character guys. I bring all this up to remind us all, it's okay to chill out and let the FO do their job.)

---------------------

Sorry this is so long... I figured I would finally lay out my thoughts in the order of how this has been/is playing out.

I appreciate you spelling all that out. I do not fault Hurney every year. I praised him last year and thought they did the best job in the league. This is different. I think he folded to the status quo and I think he may even regret it a little at this point. I don't think the agent is a complete moron because as of right now he has his client in the drivers seat with a fullproof backup plan full of guaranteed money to fall back on. Hurney on the other hand is squirming and cannot do a damn thing about it. What are Peppers and the agent screwing up? If they sign the tender they potentially risk more face if a trade to a loser comes up and they have to show their ass and block it. I think the guy, blind luck or not, has his client in the optimum spot.

The fact that there wasn't a huge name out there that we know about does not make me feel any better at all. We could have run up the bidding on others, fabricated some bizarre trade, anything. When you don't have money you are dead in the water. Who knows what could have materialized if we are sitting there with a need and with cash?

It was a tough decision and I think he chose poorly. I think letting him walk would look horrible but in the end would be the lesser of two evils. Whena franchise player wants out and its not about money, its going to get ugly. We could never have expected this to go smooth and everybody come out smelling like roses. And ANYBODY who thinks Peppers is gonna command two first round picks needs their head examined anyway.

[bleys]

I appreciate you spelling all that out. I do not fault Hurney every year. I praised him last year and thought they did the best job in the league. This is different. I think he folded to the status quo and I think he may even regret it a little at this point. I don't think the agent is a complete moron because as of right now he has his client in the drivers seat with a fullproof backup plan full of guaranteed money to fall back on. Hurney on the other hand is squirming and cannot do a damn thing about it. What are Peppers and the agent screwing up? If they sign the tender they potentially risk more face if a trade to a loser comes up and they have to show their ass and block it. I think the guy, blind luck or not, has his client in the optimum spot.

The fact that there wasn't a huge name out there that we know about does not make me feel any better at all. We could have run up the bidding on others, fabricated some bizarre trade, anything. When you don't have money you are dead in the water. Who knows what could have materialized if we are sitting there with a need and with cash?

It was a tough decision and I think he chose poorly. I think letting him walk would look horrible but in the end would be the lesser of two evils. Whena franchise player wants out and its not about money, its going to get ugly. We could never have expected this to go smooth and everybody come out smelling like roses. And ANYBODY who thinks Peppers is gonna command two first round picks needs their head examined anyway.

Thanks for the response...

two 1sts may be a bit much to ask, there we agree. But I will agree to disagree on some of the rest. A lot of speculation for all of that and granted that's all we have right now. But by Hurney's statements, and watching Hurney up to this point with the Panthers as GM, I'd say he feels good about keeping Pep.

And here's why...

I think if we got a big time DT that can clog the middle and add a great pass rush, we will be fine with Brayton and Johnson at DE. But we don't have that and I don't see Hurney wanting to see what happens by just letting Pep walk. Even grabbing a DT in the draft doesn't mean much. He'll need a year or two just to have an impact.

It's hard for me to believe we would be applauding Hurney for letting Pep walk when we might be missing his production (regardless when he decides to show up or not).

The worst decision Pep could ever make is sitting out a year at his age. And if he does, we will still go into this year with the same DLine as if Pep were to walk. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he sits out and doesn't sign, he doesn't get paid and other teams will not be paying him either the year after. (they won't pay just the same if Pep goes on the field but has another '07 year).

:cheers2:

[carolinarolls]

Thanks for the response...

two 1sts may be a bit much to ask, there we agree. But I will agree to disagree on some of the rest. A lot of speculation for all of that and granted that's all we have right now. But by Hurney's statements, and watching Hurney up to this point with the Panthers as GM, I'd say he feels good about keeping Pep.

I think if we got a big time DT that can clog the middle and add a great pass rush, we will be fine with Brayton and Johnson at DE. But we don't have that and I don't see Hurney wanting to see what happens by just letting Pep walk. Even grabbing a DT in the draft doesn't mean much. He'll need a year or two just to have an impact.

It's hard for me to believe we would be applauding Hurney for letting Pep walk when we might be missing his production (regardless when he decides to show up or not).

:cheers2:

It would be very difficult to applaud him for that and maybe even impossible. But I think in this business and being as close as we were we should opt for the known over the unknown and in spite of JP's prowess, there is a lot that is unknown about his stock in the NFL. Everybody out there has plenty of ammo to take shots at a peppers trade. We lose either way. I wish he would have let him walk though. It would be noce to see him truly reach his potential and get out from under the misuse of him currently.

[Mr. Scot]

As a pure business decision, simply letting him walk would have been an absolutely stupid move :nonod:

- we would have received no compensation whatsoever

- he could have freely signed with a division rival

- we'd never have known what kind of offer he might have fetched

- there's no comparable replacement available in free agency

- replacing him via draft, with no #1 pick, would be a lot to ask

Would we have had cap room? Sure, but can anyone name me somebody we would have had a realistic shot at signing that we're really all that poorer for not getting?

To call this year's free agent class mediocre would be a compliment. Where's the value in having a million bucks if your only shopping option is dumpster diving at K Mart?

Bottom line: If we get anything in return for him, even just a 7th rounder, it's better than nothing (and no, that's not a realistic option).

[Nu Guns]

I dont see how we are all so quick to call his agent a moron.

Peppers and his agent are in a win/win situation.

The Panthers on the other hand are not.

If Peppers stays he will be getting more money over the mext two years then Haynsworth. Peppers either stays here and makes a ton of money or he leaves to another team that he wants to play for -also to make a lot of money.

I agree with Hurneys gamble to franchise him, but only if he truely did it for compensation purposes. Peppers turned down the richest contract before the season, then said he wanted leave, take him at his word. From that moment Hurney should have been thinking compensation. No player in my mind at his position is worth the money that he will get if he stays here. If Hurney pulls off a deal-bravo champ !

If he does not pull off a deal, I think he should be fired.

Regarding what his teamates have said....doesnt matter. It only matters what Peppers or his agent says and we have not heard anything from them to indicate that Peppers has changed his mind.